1017 replies to this topic

[Cy Mitchell]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 June 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

did you catch if they were all KDK3 DakkaBears?

Not all of them in the matches I have watched (about 10) there was at least one KDK-1, a couple KDK-SB, A KDK-4 and one that was a KDK-3 but was running Gauss instead of UAC.

I also watched a Euro match where a team brought two Gargoyles instead and beat a team with two KDK-3 dakka. Another Team brought one Kodiak and a Mauler MX90 and beat a two Kodiak team.

[MischiefSC]

Right now there's a big swing iin relative skill between teams in matches which makes it hard to gauge value of a mech overall.

I'm interested in matches in the last couple weeks.

However in comp teams the preference seems pretty clear already. Also preponderance of prior opinions, positions and performance.

I'd be 100% in favor of stripping every quirk from every mech after the rescale, shuffle Clan/IS together and requirk as needed from there. Weight class by weight class. Is more than I could hope for, really. All Clan and IS mechs balanced together at the same time.

Then again I would need some indication that we could trust PGI to make good decisions about that.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 04 June 2016 - 04:11 PM, said:

Right now there's a big swing iin relative skill between teams in matches which makes it hard to gauge value of a mech overall.

I'm interested in matches in the last couple weeks.

However in comp teams the preference seems pretty clear already. Also preponderance of prior opinions, positions and performance.

I'd be 100% in favor of stripping every quirk from every mech after the rescale, shuffle Clan/IS together and requirk as needed from there. Weight class by weight class. Is more than I could hope for, really. All Clan and IS mechs balanced together at the same time.

Then again I would need some indication that we could trust PGI to make good decisions about that.

So, you cite the tournament as correlation for your point, then turn around and say that skill gaps make it irrelevant?

My, the goal posts move so quickly.

[Cy Mitchell]

MischiefSC, on 04 June 2016 - 04:11 PM, said:

Right now there's a big swing iin relative skill between teams in matches which makes it hard to gauge value of a mech overall.

I'm interested in matches in the last couple weeks.

However in comp teams the preference seems pretty clear already. Also preponderance of prior opinions, positions and performance.

I'd be 100% in favor of stripping every quirk from every mech after the rescale, shuffle Clan/IS together and requirk as needed from there. Weight class by weight class. Is more than I could hope for, really. All Clan and IS mechs balanced together at the same time.

Then again I would need some indication that we could trust PGI to make good decisions about that.

Agreed.

But it really does not matter whether we trust PGI to do it. They are the only ones who can. No matter what they do there will be a bunch of unhappy somebodys who are not happy about the outcome and will complain bitterly about it.

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

Mcgral18, on 04 June 2016 - 02:45 PM, said:

A few 50 PP FLD versions as well (as you'd expect for range plays)

The UAC40 is effective to about 400M, but absolutely terrible against (quirked) poking

See

Wait, it's possible to shoot dakka at a spider and register hits??? Please teach me senpai.

Till this day, I haven't done anything bad to a spider without SRMs at point blank or laser spray 'n pray

[MischiefSC]

Gyrok, on 04 June 2016 - 06:02 PM, said:

So, you cite the tournament as correlation for your point, then turn around and say that skill gaps make it irrelevant?

My, the goal posts move so quickly.

I'm curious. When you cherry pick posts do you go all the way down to letter by letter or just word by word? Watching you is almost creepy, it's like watching some make a ransome note out of newspaper clippings then say The Boston Globe is trying to blackmail you.

There is a difference between observable trends and reliable data. As I've said, repeatedly from the beginning (I realize that as you don't read most the posts you may have missed it, repeatedly) the advatage of comp play as a test bed is that at the end of the curve you reduce the impact of skill disparity as people are in a close range to each other. As such in the tournament right now it's good to see trends - accepting there's a margin or error that will decline both with larger sample size and tightening in skill band.

However even with that we currently have over 90% in KDK. Unless the margin of error is 40% (which is to say a hair this side of random) it's a hugely lop sided result.

Also the top tier comp teams seem pretty consistent with KDKs, either 2xkdk3 or kdk3+sb.

I get you'll try to brush the preponderance of data off but it's pretty consistent. Most billion dollar business decisions are made with less support. Still, nothing about a Clan mech is so certain that Gyrok can't argue it isn't OP regardless of how OP it is.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 04 June 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

The good teams really do put some good strategies together. 2 KDK3s is a duplication of role that on most maps has a diminishing rate of return.

No, the good teams have been running duplicate KDK-3s, just not with dakka, at least from what I have seen (have yet to see what EmP is running). People just really do over-estimate the 4 UAC10 Kodiak.

MischiefSC, on 04 June 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

That the SB seems to be a better Atlas is worth looking at. It's a Hero mech and so harder to identify the an the ubiquitous KDK3.

I wouldn't say the SB is a better Atlas, it just is a better option on maps like Canyon where it is much harder to force the brawl because of speed. On maps like Caustic and Frozen City, an Atlas is still probably the better option thanks to the tankiness and less need for speed.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 June 2016 - 11:08 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 04 June 2016 - 07:25 PM, said:

However even with that we currently have over 90% in KDK. Unless the margin of error is 40% (which is to say a hair this side of random) it's a hugely lop sided result.

I will note here, this is also because there is only 1 map being used for qualifiers, and it happens to be a map that favors the Kodiak a lot. I could be wrong since the science hasn't been done fully how powerful the PPC/Gauss Kodiak really is, but I can't imagine it will be dominant on every map. Polar for example should still favor ERLL Battlemasters over the Kodiak.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 June 2016 - 11:10 PM, said:

I will note here, this is also because there is only 1 map being used for qualifiers, and it happens to be a map that favors the Kodiak a lot. I could be wrong since the science hasn't been done fully how powerful the PPC/Gauss Kodiak really is, but I can't imagine it will be dominant on every map. Polar for example should still favor ERLL Battlemasters over the Kodiak.

and even if it ain't OP, but just a true tier 1 assault... you are going to see a lot of them. Because people do use what works.

[Mcgral18]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 June 2016 - 11:07 PM, said:

No, the good teams have been running duplicate KDK-3s, just not with dakka, at least from what I have seen (have yet to see what EmP is running). People just really do over-estimate the 4 UAC10 Kodiak.


I wouldn't say the SB is a better Atlas, it just is a better option on maps like Canyon where it is much harder to force the brawl because of speed. On maps like Caustic and Frozen City, an Atlas is still probably the better option thanks to the tankiness and less need for speed.

It's more the fact it's a small map, and no matter how you do it, 160 damage > 60 damage
The DPS differential (and smaller map) don't allow for the PeepGauss to shine very well (at least not without significant effort and positioning)


Running and gunning ATM is both fun and effective.


Of course, we'll be facing 2 good teams this week....so maybe I'll get back to you. We have another 5 matches planned between two days.



As for the PUG LIFE, I had an interesting match a few days ago.
Proton disconnected at the start, and I naturally abandoned him (soz), and I followed typical PUG LIFE procedure: Shoot Robots, stick near larger group.

Unfortunately, the team went full Potato, and somehow NO ONE other than myself and Proton broke 200 damage. While he was late to the fight, it was by no means simple clean up.


Not many robots can pump out that much damage in such little time.



What an amazing robot.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 04 June 2016 - 11:36 PM, said:

It's more the fact it's a small map, and no matter how you do it, 160 damage > 60 damage
The DPS differential (and smaller map) don't allow for the PeepGauss to shine very well (at least not without significant effort and positioning)


Running and gunning ATM is both fun and effective.


Of course, we'll be facing 2 good teams this week....so maybe I'll get back to you. We have another 5 matches planned between two days.



As for the PUG LIFE, I had an interesting match a few days ago.
Proton disconnected at the start, and I naturally abandoned him (soz), and I followed typical PUG LIFE procedure: Shoot Robots, stick near larger group.

Unfortunately, the team went full Potato, and somehow NO ONE other than myself and Proton broke 200 damage. While he was late to the fight, it was by no means simple clean up.


Not many robots can pump out that much damage in such little time.



What an amazing robot.

good thing most off their team played for Team Spud, too, apparently.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 June 2016 - 11:48 PM, said:

good thing most off their team played for Team Spud, too, apparently.

It didn't stop the XL Thud from crying about the No Skiller loadout, however.


Feel free to guess what the three K-3s had loaded.

[Xetelian]

Sad that so many people are salty over the KDK 3
Yet the KDK 1 is where the quirks aren't.

Do we need further proof that the guys balancing the quirks don't know which way is up?

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 04 June 2016 - 11:53 PM, said:

It didn't stop the XL Thud from crying about the No Skiller loadout, however.


Feel free to guess what the three K-3s had loaded.

for PUGfamring? Gosh, tough guess. I'll wait to see how well represented they are at the end of the tournament.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 June 2016 - 11:07 PM, said:

No, the good teams have been running duplicate KDK-3s, just not with dakka, at least from what I have seen (have yet to see what EmP is running). People just really do over-estimate the 4 UAC10 Kodiak.


I wouldn't say the SB is a better Atlas, it just is a better option on maps like Canyon where it is much harder to force the brawl because of speed. On maps like Caustic and Frozen City, an Atlas is still probably the better option thanks to the tankiness and less need for speed.

I didn't say they were 4xUAC10. Just consistently choosing the KDK3 over any other mech.

I'll take your word for it on the SB. I'd love to see matches where someone in the finals takes something that isn't a KDK that isn't a clear statistical outlier.

Currently everything that isn't a KDK3, even a SB, is a huge statistical outlier. 100 matches is a good sized sample but there isn't any map variety and there's a wide gap in skills between teams.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 June 2016 - 11:10 PM, said:

I will note here, this is also because there is only 1 map being used for qualifiers, and it happens to be a map that favors the Kodiak a lot. I could be wrong since the science hasn't been done fully how powerful the PPC/Gauss Kodiak really is, but I can't imagine it will be dominant on every map. Polar for example should still favor ERLL Battlemasters over the Kodiak.

So if it's dominant on every map but 1, does that make it balanced?

At this point I'm tempted to say leave it alone until after the event. Significant balance changes on what is clearly the most consistent presence in the event is problematic in its own way.

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 June 2016 - 11:20 PM, said:

and even if it ain't OP, but just a true tier 1 assault... you are going to see a lot of them. Because people do use what works.

If it's what works best almost all the time.... that's not balanced. If it comes out that the KDK3 is only the best assault on 25% of maps (Banshee, Atlas, Mauler, KDK3 at least. Ideally more than 4 total choices, right) I'll be pleasantly surprised.

So if it comes out that the KDK3 is the best mech on *at least* 75% of maps and is just as good on the other 25%, is that still balanced?

If it's the best option almost all the time it's not balanced. The top tier mechs are already on the edge of imbalanced. The 3M Banshee is a big part of why I'm a proponent of increasing IS LPL burn time. The Mauler and Atlas have enough huge limitations on mobility to make their strengths very situational. The Banshee has enough big heat issues and IS XL risks to offset its firepower. KDK3 has none of that. There's no surprises that it's so omnipresent. Power creep over and above stuff that's already the ragged edge of balanced is a bad thing.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 05 June 2016 - 01:50 AM, said:

So if it's dominant on every map but 1, does that make it balanced?

You assumed a bit much on this, all I was providing was a counter example, not all of them that I could think of.

Polar and Apline still favor ERLL assaults.

Caustic and Tourmaline favors low heat dakka, Kodiak is nice for this, but if you are expecting a push and are using Maulers, the Whale may be better just for the extra UAC5s, though Gauss/PPCs could be strong on this too. The quad 10 Kodiak will be too hot for this map unless you are using it to support an Atlas rush imo (and even then, may be too hot).

Frozen will still favor the Atlas because of durability and how easy it is to force a brawl.

Plexis, HPG, River City, Crimson, Mining all have potential for the Kodiak, but it really depends on the strat since these tend to be more flexible maps.

All I'm saying, is don't go leaping to judgements quite yet based on the tournament, let's see how it fairs on other maps first before we go that route.

Mcgral18, on 04 June 2016 - 11:36 PM, said:

It's more the fact it's a small map, and no matter how you do it, 160 damage > 60 damage
The DPS differential (and smaller map) don't allow for the PeepGauss to shine very well (at least not without significant effort and positioning)

You say this, but I've seen more PeepGauss Kodiaks from teams like my own, Lords, AS, 228, and Storm Jag than I have Dakka. The Dakka Kodiak is easier to setup since you just dakka rush with it, but it isn't the strongest strat on the map from what I've seen, the long range setup like you said just requires good positioning and a bit more effort. It may be a small map, but canyons can wreak havoc on brawling/push teams. Especially if a range team is appropriately spreading out and rotating in response to your movements.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 June 2016 - 11:48 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 June 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

All I'm saying, is don't go leaping to judgements quite yet based on the tournament, let's see how it fairs on other maps first before we go that route.
.

Lol, a little late. We're already fast beyond that with these guys, lol.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 June 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

Lol, a little late. We're already fast beyond that with these guys, lol.

I did specifically mention that, along with better teams in the above comment, actually.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 05 June 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

I did specifically mention that, along with better teams in the above comment, actually.

After how many different dumpster fire kdk ok posts on how many different threads?