1017 replies to this topic

[xXBagheeraXx]

We are not allowed to have any mechs in this game that are actually Decent. Or they get called "OP"

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 12 June 2016 - 12:57 PM, said:

The XL400 Wubshee, and any XL375+ BLR called, you missed 2 of the most dominating assaults in the game, and they are significantly more mobile than any KDK (SB, aside...but that has similar issues to splatlas + glass cannon). Especially if we are discussing one that totes enough weapons to get you concerned, and enough ammo to keep working deep into a match.

So, if you are game to nerf the KDK, you surely must be game to nerf the BLRs that go 83 kph, and the wubshee that goes 73-74 kph with pinpoint, ultra short duration laser alphas and big heat caps...right?

If that much mobility is a problem for one assault, it must be for others too, right? We need to be objective...people have said BLRs and Banshees are as strong as the strongest assaults for quite some time...and nobody is fretting over those mechs being OP. So, now that a slower KDK comes along, it is suddenly OP to move at 65 kph like nearly any assault mech has ever, but it is "OK" for all IS assaults not called Atlas/KGC to move that speed still?

Gyrok, Quirks

The WubShee has...exactly ZERO agility quirks (only weapon quirks)
Those quirks and extraordinary mounts (much like the K-3) are what make it good, along with good (but worse than Kodiak) twisting and Shoulder Pads (which count as Arm)

The 375 Kodiak is more agile than the WubShee, deal with it.
It twists faster, it starts and stops faster, and it turns faster
The engine does not compare to 30+% quirks, only a few percentage points

Land Speed, it does win on, but only land speed

[xXBagheeraXx]

I would be...SOMEWHAT ok with it losing the mobility quirks. since I use a minimum of a 375 engine, which for me is ridiculously large for an assault mech. But they need to fix the hitboxes as well. Its All ct.

I'd be upset, yes It feels WONDERFUL with the mobilty quirks and the large engine, and I love how quickly it allows me to put guns on target but I'd rather it have no quirks then the inevitable negative quirks that turn it into another crappy highlander IIC.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 12 June 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

Gyrok, Quirks

The WubShee has...exactly ZERO agility quirks (only weapon quirks)
Those quirks and extraordinary mounts (much like the K-3) are what make it good, along with good (but worse than Kodiak) twisting and Shoulder Pads (which count as Arm)

The 375 Kodiak is more agile than the WubShee, deal with it.
It twists faster, it starts and stops faster, and it turns faster
The engine does not compare to 30+% quirks, only a few percentage points

Land Speed, it does win on, but only land speed

Eh. Half their posts on here are full of half truths too short agenda anyhow. Why not a few more.

KDK3 is indeed strong, but numbers in queue keep falling, and Poke(the) Bears seem more popular so far in upper echelon play.

So still seems far from conclusive.

That said, what's your opinion on Spirit Bears and KDK4s?. OP must nerf, too, or solid mechs, etc?

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 11 June 2016 - 02:33 PM, said:

You buy hero mechs because you want them. Same reason you buy any other mech. If you're in favor of heroes being top meta, well, I'm sure PGI would agree - nothing like power creep for money!

My agenda is a balanced game and extending ttk in favor of power creep. Your agenda seems to be power creep and wanting to pay extra for an advatage. Also irrational and baseless insults.

You are the only person here acting butthurt. The KDK3 is a license to print money for me. In the same way I used the OP as **** TBR to grind literally enough cbills to buy 72 mechs I can use the KDK3 with a variety of builds to farm cbills relentlessly until it's balanced and then I'll still play it.

Hero mechs that are T1 are cheap as ****. It's always been that way but before PGI worked to keep them balanced. Now they're power creep for cash. You seem to be okay with that, I'm not.

To be fair, the SB costs less over the base pack than getting another KDK1 costs to get a cbill bonus/champion/special variant.

If anything is P2L that $20 extra special KDK1 is certainly P2L.

In fact, the SB might be the very reason they sell a ton of base packs + heros and fewer collectors.

Mcgral18, on 12 June 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

Gyrok, Quirks

The WubShee has...exactly ZERO agility quirks (only weapon quirks)
Those quirks and extraordinary mounts (much like the K-3) are what make it good, along with good (but worse than Kodiak) twisting and Shoulder Pads (which count as Arm)

The 375 Kodiak is more agile than the WubShee, deal with it.
It twists faster, it starts and stops faster, and it turns faster
The engine does not compare to 30+% quirks, only a few percentage points

Land Speed, it does win on, but only land speed

Ignore the Wubmaster 2C that outright outclasses the mobility on the KDK.

If you want to get into quirks as well, how about the Atlases with their 60% quirks and more agility with STD360 than the XL375 KDK.

McGral, I expect you to at least keep up the appearance that you are unbiased, maybe I am asking too much?

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 June 2016 - 01:11 PM, said:

Eh. Half their posts on here are full of half truths too short agenda anyhow. Why not a few more.

KDK3 is indeed strong, but numbers in queue keep falling, and Poke(the) Bears seem more popular so far in upper echelon play.

So still seems far from conclusive.

That said, what's your opinion on Spirit Bears and KDK4s?. OP must nerf, too, or solid mechs, etc?

Don't own either, can't comment

Tried the Spirit Bear on the Tourney server, MASC is neat, and the completely in sync LOLpha is nice for twisting...but the hitbox is not.

The 4 can Sword and Board, which is handy, but have not used it.


I've moved on from the cUAC40 build simply because I wanted to farm headshots, with a trolly 4 Flamer, 2 Gauss 2 UAC2 build. Naturally less effective, and I think I've only managed to use the Flamers twice
Got one on a jumping Marauder....it felt great

[Pjwned]

Gyrok, on 12 June 2016 - 12:57 PM, said:

The XL400 Wubshee, and any XL375+ BLR called, you missed 2 of the most dominating assaults in the game, and they are significantly more mobile than any KDK (SB, aside...but that has similar issues to splatlas + glass cannon). Especially if we are discussing one that totes enough weapons to get you concerned, and enough ammo to keep working deep into a match.

So, if you are game to nerf the KDK, you surely must be game to nerf the BLRs that go 83 kph, and the wubshee that goes 73-74 kph with pinpoint, ultra short duration laser alphas and big heat caps...right?

If that much mobility is a problem for one assault, it must be for others too, right? We need to be objective...people have said BLRs and Banshees are as strong as the strongest assaults for quite some time...and nobody is fretting over those mechs being OP. So, now that a slower KDK comes along, it is suddenly OP to move at 65 kph like nearly any assault mech has ever, but it is "OK" for all IS assaults not called Atlas/KGC to move that speed still?

This situation is partly why mech agility should be decoupled from engine rating, and 100 ton mechs moving faster than they should is why the mech skill tree needs to go away.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 12 June 2016 - 01:40 PM, said:

Ignore the Wubmaster 2C that outright outclasses the mobility on the KDK.

If you want to get into quirks as well, how about the Atlases with their 60% quirks and more agility with STD360 than the XL375 KDK.

McGral, I expect you to at least keep up the appearance that you are unbiased, maybe I am asking too much?

Having to correct you every other pages gets old Gyrok
The BM is more agile, as it has ~ the same quirks with a greater land speed


Your bias is overwhelming, so excuse me while I laugh, because your Atlas comment is outright false.
The Atlas gets very similar quirks to the Kodiak, agility wise, and nothing reaches 60%. 45% Accel seems to be the highest

Now, go and do the Math for me, what effective Atlas build is more agile than the typical Quad UAC10 Kodiak 375-380 build. They should be close, for the most part, but don't most fall short of the Kodiak agility? Especially since most Atlai take the 350, and not the 360

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 12 June 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

Having to correct you every other pages gets old Gyrok
The BM is more agile, as it has ~ the same quirks with a greater land speed


Your bias is overwhelming, so excuse me while I laugh, because your Atlas comment is outright false.
The Atlas gets very similar quirks to the Kodiak, agility wise, and nothing reaches 60%. 45% Accel seems to be the highest

Now, go and do the Math for me, what effective Atlas build is more agile than the typical Quad UAC10 Kodiak 375-380 build. They should be close, for the most part, but don't most fall short of the Kodiak agility? Especially since most Atlai take the 350, and not the 360

Cause nobody ever runs it like this...

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 12 June 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

Cause nobody ever runs it like this...

No...not really

The stripped legs, no arm shield, and too hot

I mean, Potatos run anything, but that's not the argument at hand

[Reza Malin]

Gyrok, on 12 June 2016 - 12:57 PM, said:

The XL400 Wubshee, and any XL375+ BLR called, you missed 2 of the most dominating assaults in the game, and they are significantly more mobile than any KDK (SB, aside...but that has similar issues to splatlas + glass cannon). Especially if we are discussing one that totes enough weapons to get you concerned, and enough ammo to keep working deep into a match.

So, if you are game to nerf the KDK, you surely must be game to nerf the BLRs that go 83 kph, and the wubshee that goes 73-74 kph with pinpoint, ultra short duration laser alphas and big heat caps...right?

If that much mobility is a problem for one assault, it must be for others too, right? We need to be objective...people have said BLRs and Banshees are as strong as the strongest assaults for quite some time...and nobody is fretting over those mechs being OP. So, now that a slower KDK comes along, it is suddenly OP to move at 65 kph like nearly any assault mech has ever, but it is "OK" for all IS assaults not called Atlas/KGC to move that speed still?

Look Gyrok, lets just agree to disagree, and never engage in a discussion again about balance! Lol. Its endless.

You list mechs using IS XL engines, rather than clan XL. Which is tantamount to a death sentence against decent players.

I am sure you know, the banshee can move around 71KPH with a 400XL with speed tweak, so around 5-6 KPH more than a KDK-3 that is more agile, albeit slightly slower. Its hardly comparable.

Don't even start me on the battlemaster, yes it can go around 83KPH with a 400 XL, but it is not XL friendly and if focused will go down in seconds. At least the banshee is XL friendly, the BM certainly isn't.

Lastly, you link some reddit poll as some kind of evidence.

Reddit? Lol, the whiner capital for every game in the world! To get an unbiased opinion off there is about on par with finding a piece of rocking horse poo.

We are getting nowhere, so i am out. You are far more rational and pleasant to discuss with than that weird Steiner dude though ill give you that!

Gyrok, on 12 June 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

Cause nobody ever runs it like this...

SRMS, with about 200m effective range to hit anything that isn't disconnected.

Compared to UAC10's with a bit of skill can easily hit 400-500m, with much better velocity too.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mcgral18, on 12 June 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

No...not really

The stripped legs, no arm shield, and too hot

I mean, Potatos run anything, but that's not the argument at hand

It's not too hot, that build is close to what people SHOULD be running on the AS7-S which is this or something like it

You can adjust the armor amount a bit (and move the ammo to better positions), and you can drop 2 tons of ammo for flamers in CT, but there isn't much else you really should be doing to that build.

I don't really care about the argument at hand anymore, just wanted to point out while not completely right, Gyrok's build is somewhat close to the standard build.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 June 2016 - 03:59 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Fade Akira, on 12 June 2016 - 03:16 PM, said:

SRMS, with about 200m effective range to hit anything that isn't disconnected.

Compared to UAC10's with a bit of skill can easily hit 400-500m, with much better velocity too.

Those builds are a bit unfair to compare, by either side, since their jobs are quite a bit different. The Dakka Kodiak is a bit of a glass cannon, whereas the Atlas is meant to zombie in almost every since of the word.

[Mcgral18]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 June 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:

It's not too hot, that build is close to what people SHOULD be running on the AS7-S which is this or something like it

You can adjust the armor amount a bit (and move the ammo to better positions), and you can drop 2 tons of ammo for flamers in CT, but there isn't much else you really should be doing to that build.

I don't really care about the argument at hand anymore, just wanted to point out while not completely right, Gyrok's build is somewhat close to the standard build.

The build is close, but is 360 the right choice? 3.5 tons means the Flamers and a heatsink, and whatever ammo for minimal losses.

16 heatsinks was what I remember seeing, not 13

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mcgral18, on 12 June 2016 - 04:11 PM, said:

The build is close, but is 360 the right choice? 3.5 tons means the Flamers and a heatsink, and whatever ammo for minimal losses.

16 heatsinks was what I remember seeing, not 13

360 is not (350 is the best option), but you normally only run 14 DHS (10 + 4 in the engine) with the rest being in ammo/armor/maybe flamers.

[Tarogato]

I've tried reading bits of this thread here and there, but there's just so much wankery going on both sides of the fence that it wasn't worth the effort. That said, here's my two pence:


For the longest time the DWF was king of assaults - it simply had the most firepower you could mount on any mech and those that knew how to position it properly were rewarded. In December 2015, this was shaken up a bit by Banshee, which was favoured for its peek profile and mobility. Also, the Atlas became a shoe-in for brawls. Then came the Mauler, which replaced the DWF because the Mauler brought comparable firepower but with higher mounts and slightly better mobility. Now the DWF with its terrible peek profile would be shredded by well positioned Maulers. Now comes the Kodiak 3, which is basically a DWF without the low mounts and without the ****-like mobility. In fact, it has higher mounts and better mobility than the Mauler, so has replaced the Mauler. And it replaces the Atlas as well, because why bring an Atlas to a brawl when you can have the sheer DPS of the KDK-3 on overwatch?

There is a reason that the KDK-3 is the most used mech in competitive play right now, and there is a reason why not only the KDK-3 scored the highest on the leaderboard, but some of the best pilots chose the KDK-3 over other variants to compete with on the leaderboard. I can say without hesitation that it is the strongest mech in the game right now (with two completely different loadouts even), and it needs a nerf. In my opinion, it would be fine to start with removing all quirks, but it might even need negative quirks to bring it back down to the effectiveness of the DWF (and while we're at it, the Mauler and Banshee also need slight nerfs to bring them back down to the level of the DWF as well).

KDK-SB, I think falls short of the Atlas, and I'm not sure it deserves any nerfs based on its performance, but in my opinion the mobility quirks are dumb on it and should probably be removed simply because combined with MASC I find it just unimmersive. Even with MASC, I think no 100-tonner should ever behave like a medium mech on crack, even in short bursts, it's just looks ludicrous. Is has MASC, I don't think it also needs mobility quirks.

KDK-1 probably just needs an energy heat gen quirk, maybe -10%. The KDK-2 I think is fine, it has it's uses because it has jumpjets. The KDK-4 can have slightly better sheer brawling DPS than the KDK-SB, so I think if the mobility quirks were removed from the -SB, the -4 could maybe receive -5% energy heat gen and be fine . The KDK-5 might also be fine as is, I think people underestimate it currently.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tarogato, on 12 June 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

There is a reason that the KDK-3 is the most used mech in competitive play right now, and there is a reason why not only the KDK-3 scored the highest on the leaderboard, but some of the best pilots chose the KDK-3 over other variants to compete with on the leaderboard. I can say without hesitation that it is the strongest mech in the game right now (with two completely different loadouts even), and it needs a nerf. In my opinion, it would be fine to start with removing all quirks, but it might even need negative quirks to bring it back down to the effectiveness of the DWF (and while we're at it, the Mauler and Banshee also need slight nerfs to bring them back down to the level of the DWF as well).

Oxide disagrees. And the number of KDK3s needing kidney donors seems to bear this out.
(Because the one part Mischief is getting right in this without any argument from me is that the Oxide is broken as heck)

Tarogato, on 12 June 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

KDK-SB, I think falls short of the Atlas, and I'm not sure it deserves any nerfs based on its performance, but in my opinion the mobility quirks are dumb on it and should probably be removed simply because combined with MASC I find it just unimmersive. Even with MASC, I think no 100-tonner should ever behave like a medium mech on crack, even in short bursts, it's just looks ludicrous. Is has MASC, I don't think it also needs mobility quirks.

So they don't cause an issue, don't make it OP, but shoudl be removed because you don't like them.

Noted. Well, I do like them and I do feel they add to the unique flavor of the SB, especially as an all or nothing Glass Cannon. So who's opinion is worth more here?

Mostly just pointing out the fallacy of basing balance off opinion.

[Mystere]

Tarogato, on 12 June 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

KDK-SB, I think falls short of the Atlas, and I'm not sure it deserves any nerfs based on its performance, but in my opinion the mobility quirks are dumb on it and should probably be removed simply because combined with MASC I find it just unimmersive. Even with MASC, I think no 100-tonner should ever behave like a medium mech on crack, even in short bursts, it's just looks ludicrous. Is has MASC, I don't think it also needs mobility quirks.

Bishop Steiner, on 12 June 2016 - 04:35 PM, said:

So they don't cause an issue, don't make it OP, but shoudl be removed because you don't like them.

Noted. Well, I do like them and I do feel they add to the unique flavor of the SB, especially as an all or nothing Glass Cannon. So who's opinion is worth more here?

What is that old American saying again?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Bishop Steiner, on 12 June 2016 - 04:35 PM, said:

Mostly just pointing out the fallacy of basing balance off opinion.

Or "feelings". <chuckles>

[Bishop Steiner]

Tarogato, on 12 June 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

KDK-1 probably just needs an energy heat gen quirk, maybe -10%. The KDK-2 I think is fine, it has it's uses because it has jumpjets. The KDK-4 can have slightly better sheer brawling DPS than the KDK-SB, so I think if the mobility quirks were removed from the -SB, the -4 could maybe receive -5% energy heat gen and be fine . The KDK-5 might also be fine as is, I think people underestimate it currently.

KDK1 does indeed need something. Just not sure what. Maybe like you say a little heat gen.
KDK2 fine? Really? Those JJs are about as useless as the HGNs. And it's hardpoints are very weak compared to other KDK
KDK4 is pretty much fine as is. CT fix would make it even finer.
KDK5 not really. Good mechs don't get underestimated. There is a reason no one uses the 1 and 5.

I'd argue more than anything, mobility is the hallmark of the KDK. And that blend of mobility and comparative Fragility are what makes it interesting and appealing, instead of "just another Fat Robot".

The KDK3 is the sole potential outlier, and yet we aren't really seeing consistent 1000 dmg matches outside of a handful of pilots, and the numbers in queue drop daily, which seems to imply as people learn to just not facetank KDK3s and actually shoot back, that their effectiveness is dropping. Not that it might not still be OP, but that a lot of the early results were pretty clearly PUG farming in a wide open MM, allowing a whole ton of Fatties to stack high scores on...and yet only a handful of pilots realyl made insane scores with it, after Mcgral the drop off was noticeable on the leadeboard (IIRC) and after the top 2 scorers, the next highest was lower than the top Hellslinger Leaderboard score, and the top 2 were barely higher.

But as noted, even if the KDK3 does prove to be OP, what is needed is nerfs that will actually impact that perception for the masses. The vast majority of MWO players neither twist, nor use tactics, but try to either hide and peek, or facetank everything. Removing it's mobility will impact it in upper tiers, but do next to nothing fir the idiots getting farmed in the underhive, and thus, nothing to end the OP QQ.

That's my issue with the proposed nerfs of the KDK3, not the act of nerfing it, but that the nerfs will have minimal felt impact and still require more layers of Nerfs, in shades of what happened to the Victor and Highlander where two entire chassis were ruined, every single variant, for the sins of Poptarts on two variants.

And that is why I am bristling at a lot of the comments, even yours in this thread..because people are calling for nerfs against mechs that by their own admission aren't OP. Which is just outright stupid.

[Gyrok]

Fade Akira, on 12 June 2016 - 03:16 PM, said:

Look Gyrok, lets just agree to disagree, and never engage in a discussion again about balance! Lol. Its endless.

You list mechs using IS XL engines, rather than clan XL. Which is tantamount to a death sentence against decent players.

I am sure you know, the banshee can move around 71KPH with a 400XL with speed tweak, so around 5-6 KPH more than a KDK-3 that is more agile, albeit slightly slower. Its hardly comparable.

Don't even start me on the battlemaster, yes it can go around 83KPH with a 400 XL, but it is not XL friendly and if focused will go down in seconds. At least the banshee is XL friendly, the BM certainly isn't.

Lastly, you link some reddit poll as some kind of evidence.

Reddit? Lol, the whiner capital for every game in the world! To get an unbiased opinion off there is about on par with finding a piece of rocking horse poo.

We are getting nowhere, so i am out. You are far more rational and pleasant to discuss with than that weird Steiner dude though ill give you that!



SRMS, with about 200m effective range to hit anything that isn't disconnected.

Compared to UAC10's with a bit of skill can easily hit 400-500m, with much better velocity too.

Structure quirks m8.

Consider the structure quirks on the BLR-2C.

Additionally...everyone still runs IS XL engines, even though you say it is a death sentence, the best IS mechs run XLs, and they run them very well.

If you think I am lying, ask any of the comp guys...quicksilver, gas guzzler, aresye...hell any of them will tell you what I am saying is true.