145 replies to this topic

[Tordin]

I love the Viridian Bog. But as others have stated,there needs to be some balanced symmetry when it comes to the plateu. They should be approchable from more than one side. Well two sets of steps on each plateu. So one team wont have the advantage. Maybe add some form of cave somewhere on one side of map and a bridge on the other?
Just some rough ideas.

[Rebas Kradd]

Spleenslitta, on 27 May 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:

What i like.
Medium to short range weapons dominate this map but once JJ's come into the picture anything goes. A versatile map few can complain about.
The spacing between the plateaus is good too. Good for jumping across gaps.

What i dislike.
The plateaus are a bit too tall. Only mechs with enough JJ's can get on top. More plateaus should be accessible without JJ's.
The lack of cover in the low route in the water from F4 to D6. Opening up sector E5-F5-E6 would help a lot even if it was similar to the rest of the map.
Upper part of E6 could use a bit of cover. The deadend at G3 has no purpose.


Suggestion
Many complain of fog whenever you put it on maps. I don't. I wish there was a random possibility for the fog to thicken and lessen throughout a match in Viridian Bog so we can suddenly have very limited view/sensorrange.
This would encourage longrange focused mechs to bring at least some short range backup weapons.
It could also be something to think about on winter and desert maps because of snow and sandstorms.

Yes, low-visibility situations could really deepen the game.

[R5D4]

What I dislike
- The "Stairs" located throughout the map that are very difficult to climb without Jump Jets
- The unholy number of spots I come across that seem to catch any mech with Jump Jets (I try to report them when I can but I don't always have the F9 coordinates to give)

What I Like
- Choke points, mixed blessing but I do like to use them to corral people in.
- variable levels with the plateau's (upper lower and mid)


Side Note: I got rather frustrated on this map when I encountered a spot where my Jenner got stuck on a 'root' while jump jetting over it and killed by the atlas I was stalking. I voiced my disapproval on voice comm (which I don't normally do) and had a PGI Dev (who was apparently in game with us the whole time) ask me to put it down in the forum and try to capture the coordinates if possible.

I apologized for the outburst, explained the frustration with getting snagged on 'roots' and various other flora (from my perspective) and thanked him for the information on the forum post. Nice fellow and I appreciated that he helped me take a positive outlet for the frustration.

Edited by R5D4, 01 June 2016 - 06:54 PM.

[Appogee]

Thank you for seeking our input!

What I like about this map
Multiple vertical levels
Mix of long, medium and short sightlines
Good environmental setting (ie swamp with trees)

What I dislike about this map
It makes Mechs feel small, not like big stompy robots (due to mega flora and flora)
Some trees block fire, others dont. No way to tell the difference.
Tiny roots can stop an assault Mech from moving.

Trees need to be destructible.

Edited by Appogee, 02 June 2016 - 05:24 AM.

[Rebas Kradd]

A great article that I hope you get a chance to glimpse, on mech scale compared to environment (sorry, it's a Reddit piece, but still well-written)

[Triordinant]

Same as Forest Colony: the tree branches block ballistics and missiles.

[Davis Carlyle]

Same as previous posters; branches and foliage blocks gunfire, indestructible minor objects that we get caught on, etc. Would love a cave system beneath the map linking to the few ravines scattered throughout. Foliage to hide in that doesn't block movement/gunfire would be excellent. A bit thicker fog to a few areas would be appreciated?

[Suko]

Has anyone mentioned the terrible hitboxes on the spires and jagged rocks of Tourmaline? Yes? Oh.... Well. They're bad. I can generally forgive hitbox issues, but on a map like that it's exacerbated and MUCH more annoying.

Edited by Suko, 06 June 2016 - 01:38 PM.

[Akillius]

And back to the OP's topic... Viridian Bog.

When I first started playing the bog it was the 1 map I really dreaded playing.
Even back then I thought the sounds and big worms in the water were great.
But as my piloting skills increased it's since become one of my favorite maps.

Likes:
It has a lot of elements making it a thinkers map and provides a high level of re-playability.
Being able to interact with large amounts of the colorful foliage makes it stand apart from the other maps.
I really like how the tree branches/tops can be shot off by ballistics and missiles.

Dislikes:
Tree branches/tops really need to be destructible by lasers too.
Anyways as most people mentioned game play is centralized and stairs on 1 side of both mountains.
Stairs all to often become movement halting-walls to mechs without jumpjets like lights up-to assaults.

Desirable features for Viridian Bog:
- Smooth out the terraced ramps because lights to assaults get stuck walking up them
- Make water in lowlands much deeper and give cooling efficiency (hopefully for more gameplay)
- Make roots destructible and roots take damage/give-way when simply walked on/into
- Make the bigger trees (trunks) destructible
- Make bits of the giant worm skins destructible
- More smaller trees needed
- Make smaller trees shootable with lasers.
- Make foliage burnable
- Make hanging vines destructible and burnable
- Make the map appear much hotter to thermal vision because of all the biodiversity
- Explain somewhere that map appears hot on thermal because of all the biodiversity...

Consider adding:
- Rarely spawning (npc) bog-worm that attacks any mechs, +bonus to all those who shoot it
- Bog-worm appears on every ones radars no matter where it spawns
- Add random-time to how long before the bog-worm runs away unless killed before timer runs out.
- A counter for number of bog-worms shot (later add achievements, titles, or cockpit items???)

Map Change Suggestion:
I do like the earlier post about somehow putting a river through it, perhaps add small creeks running to lowlands?

Anyways, there's 2 large mountainous areas that most gameplay happens at and both have the steps on 1 side.
It's faster to show pictures then describe, so I edited the map and circled changes.



If making foliage burnable by flamers first then add later other weapons to it later?
PS. I've heard players complain about the foliage for awhile but really it just separates the wheat from the chaff.

Edited by Max Rickson, 06 June 2016 - 02:28 PM.

[Aeon Veritas]

It's more of a general feedback/suggestion regarding all maps (and game modes).

It would be realy nice if it was possible to have like 2-3 different setups for the spawn and objective locations.
Those setups should be randomly selected like the daytime after the map+game-mode voting is done.

And form a aesthetically point of view, could it be possible to not have always the map surrounded by cliffs?
I understand that you don't want the player to wander out of the boundaries but I think the mini-map and the big red warning should be enough to understand that one shouldn't go that way.
Maybe it is possible to do something like they did in Battlefiel 2?
IIRC there they had one map and depending on player limit the boundaries varied (I think it was 16, 32 and 64 Players) the more players the bigger the playable area.
What I want to propose is that you build one realy big map and then just limit the playable area with the boundaries.
Like the first setup of spawn and objectives utilizes the south of the map, the north isn't enterable becaust it is out of boundaries.
The second Setup utilizes the north-east and the thitd the middle.

I think this would widely increase the diversity.

[Thorqemada]

There are still so many foot traps where Mechs got stuck on - a rotten tree should disintegrate on a collsion with a Mech and not trap that Mech for example.

I would like to have the Water Level raised so that smaller Mechs totally submerge in the water areas of the map.
And btw Water of a certain height should slow down Mech speed to legged speed.

PS: The natural stairs there are to hard to climb for many of the slower Mechs like my Thunderbolt as the steps are to big and you need to find a spot to get speed to climb them which makes you run around like a headlees chicken to find such a spot to climb up the stairs.

Edited by Thorqemada, 09 June 2016 - 02:01 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

what i dont like about viridian bog is that it forces you between left or right too easily because of the big clutter in the middle.
also the gameplay from top to bottom is too disjointed. the map could use more terrain that is not too tall and not too low. cause you are constantly dropping shooting up and down....

the visual clutter in the form of vines could be toned down a lot, and trees too. make some of those branches that obscure the vision easily destructible.

finally there are some rocks in the map that have passageways to nowhere. sometimes you think you're taking a shortcut but the rock goes on a U turn. it's not too intuitive is what i am saying and you need to take a look at the map.

now this isn't a bad thing but why only sometimes you have to do this?
either make the whole map confusing with tunnels to the extent that it's a crapshoot and it's fun...
OR remove those tunneling rocks that take you nowhere.

high ground is too OP in the current viridian bog

[Mazzyplz]

my suggestion:

give the huge mountain that cuts the map in half and maybe other big rocks in the map cracks or tunnels that go inside it. maybe that big tall piece of land on the middle of the map has a tunnel like the old forest colony? or maybe even 2 small tunnels like the one in frozen city the more the better. and get rid of the caparace tunnel. it's terrible to go through there and it's only annoying cause invisible geometry takes hits that should go to the enemy. get rid of that caparace tunnel (both of them) and add actual tunnels like the old forest colony and frozen city. a few of those, more of those smaller rocky passes, maybe some of them make a Y intersection that you can use to flank... etc. more dynamic. less about the mechs with jumpjets shooting down on you.

[Zibmo]

For me, the major problem is that there's a ton of artwork that went into it. It is "beautiful" from an artistic sense. The main issue for me is that you have to ignore the artwork and play in Heat Vision mode to be effective. Secondary to me, is the issue of terrain blockages. The stairs are frustrating in anything heavier than 60 tons (unless you have JJ) and, while I can knock trees down on other maps, a root will bring my 100 tons of death to a complete standstill.

Those two things combine to make it my least favorite map.

[edit] I agree with the poster above me. One of the things that made the old Forest Colony more enjoyable was the cavern. I miss it. And I think that (while it may not fit the overall theme of the Bawg) adding a tunnel or so would add to the 3 dimensionality of the map. Also making the lower areas more appealing would add to the map. While combat tends to concentrate in similar places, I have seen fights all over the map.

Edited by Zibmo, 09 June 2016 - 06:56 PM.

[Trashhead]

Thanks for asking, Mr.Hicks!

Most things have already been said, so lets recap some of my favorites:


GOOD:
- a Jungle-map - YEAH!
- "verticality"; not as flat as other maps, plus some good sniper-spots for light mechs
- many possible routs to go; gameplay feels less static then on other maps
- big fallen trees that connect some of the platforms; nice idea.
- many lovely little details (overgrown Atlas, the bog-worms, etc.)
- some large trees that block the view from enemies above; we need those!


COULD BE IMPROVE:
- like SideStrafe often said: the maps often feel like they have only one theme, only one color they revolve around.
- Stuff that stops you, but shouldn't (roots etc.)
- Vines should fall off when you walk through them (plus ALL weapons should be able to remove them)
- the stairs are choke-points; if you want to slow the players down a bit, use something else, something less annoying.
- the two platforms in the center can only be reached from one side. Change the stairs for one of them. (considering the nature of Nascaring I would propose to place the stairs on the other side of the hills for both teams, so both teams need to get around their own hill in order to get up... if they want to face the stairs, they would need to nascar clockwise, instead of counter-clockwise.
- some areas of the map are underused. Especially the "Lilly-trench". Should get a more prominent place; when I first saw the video that you guys used to introduce the map, I actually thought it was more in the middle of the map. I think it should be somewhere in the middle, probably with some "branches" stretching out in other parts of the map to allow lighter mechs to move undetected into the flanks of the enemy.
- huge mountains as walls are a bit cheap. Add some other type of "walls", please.
- probably replace some of the large trees with several middle-sized and small trees instead to give a feeling of "I'm in a jungle". At least in some parts of the map. In fact, more small trees all over the place would be good, to prevent the map from looking to open.
- big fallen trees blocking some paths. (if those could spawn in different locations, that would be more interesting, i guess.)



IN GENERAL:
(This is something that i feel is true for ALL maps, not just this one.)
- Different spawn-points. So you could spawn in totally different parts of the map.
- Don't re-use cool features, make them unique. The overgrown Atlas and the Worm-Carcass are really cool features of the map. But once you start using them a lot, they loose their uniqueness, and become an ordinary feature, just like a tree. Use more overgrown mech-types. Maybe tanks. Or how about a crashed and overgrown Overlord-Class Dropship somewhere in the map? Split half open, so you can both use it as cover and walk trough it. Add some nice spots in there, so a light mech can hide there. Do not add more then one of those, or they won't be unique anymore.
- some abandoned installations (again, same rule as with the Overlord-Dropship).
- always allow for different pathways to the enemy.


To sum up my thought of "how really unique features make a map more interesting": If someone would lead you blindfold somewhere onto the map, and then remove the blindfold, you should be able to instantly recognize where you are on the map.



Another note, slightly off-topic:
I thought a lot about how you guys at PGI need to invest a lot of time in adding new maps, modes, features, etc, without knowing how well those will be received by the players.
Adding 3 Alpha-Maps for us to play with (1v1, 2v2 and 4v4) is a good idea, but only in the private lobby?
That is not ideal, methinks.

So, I have given this some thought.The result became this thread:
Improving Communication Pgi <-> Playerbase: How About A "work-In-Progess"-Game-Mode?

I'd like to know if:
A: this could be done
and
B: if this would help you.

I am not certain about the community (as of now no one had replied to this thread), but I personally think this could tighten the bonds between PGI and the playerbase.
I might be totally wrong, though... .

[Warlord Kentax]

This sums up how I feel about Viridian Bog on domination mode.

http://mwomercs.com/...bog-domination/

[Threat Doc]

The only change I can think of for Viridian Bog is to slow its iterations in the rotation, please? Any time I log into the game, now, Viridian is the very first map I get, and then I get it once in three or four maps every game I play in a single night. Viridian Bog is no longer a challenge, it's a nuisance.

3,600th post!

Edited by Kay Wolf, 17 June 2016 - 05:17 PM.

[LennStar]

What do you like about this map?

Because of the lot of cover, the game is more dynamic then on other maps.

What do you dislike about this map?

first, as many mentioned: That you get stuck everywhere. JJ light is OK, but a Dire? Cant go up the stairs because by the time he is there, there are enemies shooting and you just cant get up there without being killed because you need to run left and right 3 times.
Unbreakable leaves.

Last enemy JJ sniper on a hill nobody can shoot back. But small trade of for the possibility of those snipers/spotters in the game that are one part why the map is so dynamic.

Recommended

Make the map a bit bigger on the sides (more as circle instead of tunnel) as there are spots that are never used.

Then change the 2 center hills - make the stairs accessible and move them to different positions so that the game does not always go into "either reach stairs first or circle round so that you can shoot the mechs on the stairs"
And/Or connect them with a bridgy sort of thing. Perhaps reaching over:
I second the river idea.

I also second SpiralFaces words about the funnel.
Back in the old days of not many mechs and 8vs 8 maps the tunnel in old forest or in frozen city were a constant danger. It died with 12vs12 becuase 3 mechs werent a thread anymore to a murderball.
Give that feeling back.
Make drops more random. Dont create a central fighting point.
More height diversity, at least lower half available to all mechs.


For the beauty point of view: Make a few giant flowers. Please. I dont have green receptors in my eyes so there is nothing for me to look at in the bogs

[testhero]

When I returned to MWO in December last playing it was also a map I disliked playing.
Even back then I thought the sounds and big worms in the water were great.
The atmospherics are the best in map rotation sounds, fog and worm-sign
As my piloting skills increased it's become my best scoring map.

I have plundered the other posts heavily you are all credited at the end. So this does not look like a Question and answer Transcript.

Likes

Dense obscuring foliage
-I've heard players complain about the foliage for awhile but really it just separates the wheat from the chaff.
-The colors of Viridian Bog are by far the best part of the map. The terrain and flora of this map are unique, bold, and just great. It stands out, against many of the other maps, as a planet worth defending.
-The foliage is annoying, but unique. If I think about a bog or swap, I think that it will be foggy, full of vines and plants, and just plain hard-to-see-through. The map tries to do this, but I think it can be improved.
Low visibility
-I too like that not all maps are crystal clear. maps with less than perfect visibility help give scope for more sneaky tactics, especially in conjunction with tools like ECM, and give a reason to actually use alternate vision modes. In the case of bog, I particularly like that it is done via visual clutter making it more difficult to pick out mechs and visual concealment hiding Mechs rather than Hard cover like walls and rocks.

-I love the E2 drop zone starting in ankle deep water with fish
-I love that Ballistics and missiles can be used to mow down the tree tops. I do not care that energy weapons do not as it adds to the uniqueness and variety.
-It's a swamp. For anybody who has tried to travel through a swamp, it's very hard to do. Even for Mechs. Keep the snags, branches and rocks. Maybe we should ask why are we fighting over a godforsaken swamp instead of making it the mining collective in terms of smoothness!

Verticality
-The very high terrain that you need more than 2 jump jets to makes for lots of variety and gives Mechs with substantial tonnage sunk into Jump jets a map to shine on while those with the minimum jump can still hop up onto the level one mesas to useful advantage.

-The high terrain has as much attention paid to it as the low lying areas the first time I jumped my new Spider up there I was 'It's a whole new world up here!'

- The C4- C5 area. This area provides lots of tactical options. From the ground, there is a lot of clutter that allows Mechs to advance into brawling range, but if a Mech was to jump and take high ground or claim a hill, they have mostly open sniper lanes of fire for long range engagements. So the engagement heavily depends on how both opponents engage.

No dominant play style.
-There are equal opportunities for the map to be a long range snipe fest as it can be a brawling map. there are a multitude of things that work on the map.Even heavy LRM play that comes down to how both sides maneuver and play rather than simply what they brought to the field.

Robinhood78, on 26 May 2016 - 07:28 PM, said:

What I dislike most about bog is there isn't enough room to maneuver more than one mech in several places. Death ball seems to be here to stay and mechs need a lot of room to back up, turn, and otherwise shuffle around each other

-That is exactly what I love about the small areas and passages in the bog.
It breaks up death balls and firing lines just like the close feeling in a real jungle that knowing you are within shouting reach of your buddy but are in fact totally isolated.

Cover
-I like that cover is plenty enough so that if one side take the best spot you have many options and angle to fight them and still win.
-I like that most cover is not too tall as to cut the map, get on top and fight from every angle. This is THE reason, i believe, that while the fight is always in the same vicinity it isnt 100% at the same place.

Dislikes

These have all been commented on.
The hit boxes around solid objects need to be corrected.
The stairs - the stair climbing would need a paradigm shift to fix.
The current problem is due to how hill climbing relates to movement speed so lights with lots of movement sail up while assaults get stuck.
The true way to fix this involves using the Mech model size (tiny-small-large-huge) to modify or replace the current way this works.
That is well beyond the scope of a map review.
This also replies to the smoothing of many of the small obstructions that happened during the previous tidy up pass of the bog

One idea is to make the lips of the terraces destructible so the crumble into ramps like some of the edges/rocks do in Canyon

-The scale seems off. The map makes me feel like an infantryman; there's nothing at all to suggest I'm in a towering Battlemech. There's nothing 'human scale' on the map at all.

Improvements

Why not have the lower swamp full of slight undulating pools of slightly different heights? Why is the main 'floor' level completely FLAT throughout the entire map? It just seems lazy and takes away from the ambiance of the map.
-Having slight variations in the floor level even if they are below the thresholds to induce hill climbing behaviour in Mechs would would add a lot to the feel of the place.

-Additionally adding a real slope falling from the E2 starting end could be used to balance the stairs imbalance the E7 spawning team currently enjoys.
I actually unlike many here I do not mind the stair imbalance of the bog. Except in Domination mode.

Domination mode I would like to see the Dish domination point moved to the north end of the butte on the D5 D6 grid-line
This still gives an over looking advantage to a team on the C4 central mesas but gives the opposing team the ability to use the other B4 central mesas or the lilly pads to stage an attack from.

A lot of people have mentioned dynamic lighting for the bog I think it would be silly at night and rather than dynamic lighting I would recomend dynamic weather from mist to clear to miserable light rain then clear again like the weather in a jungle as the humidity rises untill it rains cooling down then rising again.

I would like to see an expansion into E5 like some of the others. Not nearly as large as Alistair Winters proposes but the bulk of E5 tapering into the north east corner of F4. I would make it a steep and heavily foliate slope rather than a cliff or other hard cover. Expanding too far in this direction would change ths combat dynamic completely rather than tweaking it to allow use of the Lilly pad area and providing the ability for either team to maneuver just a slight bit more.

People I filked shamelessly from.
WillyPete
Satya Agraha
SpiralFace
MuonNeutrino
Robinhood78
Malleus011
Big Tin Man
DAYLEET
Max Rickson

[surgetank]

Some of the steps cause my mech to have problems reaching the top , steps are too big for some of the mechs to climb making it an nightmare to steer around them. make the big steps a little smaller please.