819 replies to this topic

[dervishx5]

Appogee, on 09 August 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:

Of course I did. Every single one of them.

And yet, MWO seems to have the lowest TTK of any of them. And that TTK has been getting lower and lower since the day the first BoomJager appeared on the battlefield, culminating in the huge alpha Kodiaks and Dire Stars we see today. Hell, we even had a 6ERPPC Stalker for a while there.

Alphas are too high, and they are a handbrake on the game. Lower alphas, via a mechanic which will at least be more diverse and less one-dimensional than ghost heat, will be a step in the right direction.

That's because the netcode in the other games was garbage.

Look at the single player. The TTK for enemy mechs was stupid low. That's why you, as a player, could wade through dozens of enemies with 1 mech. Factor in human opponents and the TTK raised only slightly.

If those old games had the same netcode we have today, the TTK would be even lower than it is now.

[Appogee]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:

The point is 30 seconds is an absurdly long amount of time between alphas.

So, how frequently do you want to be able to fire all your weapons all at once...?

This game is already too simple. Ghost Heat - even though I despise the mechanic for its sheer illogicality - at least made people need to use a few weapon groups and give a little more thought to when and how often they would fire.

I think Energy Draw has the potential to be more encompassing and increase the overall feel of the game, as if we are piloting highly-armored battle machines with diverse weapons ... and not just a huge gun with a big red button that fires everything, all the time.

Of course, there's every chance PGI will screw it up.

Edited by Appogee, 09 August 2016 - 11:18 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

Insta-gibs are a rarity. Maneuverability keeps alphas in line as well.

No re-thinking of strategies required. Just take the competitive alpha builds out and stick with the competitive DPS builds that you are already using.



Let's compare MechWarrior to other MechWarrior game shall we?

The TT references will apply more to the BattleTech game next year.

Those other Mechwarrior games where not designed as multiplayer games. What featured in them was to make a fun single player game.

There are all sorts of terrible design faults in all the Mechwarrior games, and those shouldn't be emulated.

[Appogee]

dervishx5, on 09 August 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

If those old games had the same netcode we have today, the TTK would be even lower than it is now.

That may be. But it's beside the point. The fact is, TTK is too low in MWO, and low TTK makes this feel less like MechWarrior than it should. So it has to be addressed.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Appogee, on 09 August 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

No, it will create opportunities for more fluid movement and more strategy.

No, it makes pushing and rushing the optimal strategy since holding a defensive position or avoiding the enemy isn't a viable strategy.

Appogee, on 09 August 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

Range could keep DPS in line. High manoeverability could keep DPS in line.

Range relies heavily on lasers (which are now nerfed, well, their platforms are) and high alphas punching holes to exploit, without both, range won't be a thing. High maneuverability also does not allow for much firepower and most maps do not allow you to exploit that maneuverability to the extent you want (essentially you want a return of the Ninja SCat/Ryo days of MW4).

Appogee, on 09 August 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

Repeated high alphas are for lazy, high-tonnage camping, kill farming, and the kind of insta-gibbing COD players are so fond of.

How is it lazy? Being a good shot takes practice, especially with the current ERPPC velocities (dealing with wildly different velocities is rough at 600m). It also has nothing to do with camping or high-tonnage since high DPS strats also make use of fat mechs. I don't think there is a single meta mech that can currently be insta-gibbed, with the Jenner IIC being the closest.

Appogee, on 09 August 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

Energy Draw has the potential to require more flexible multi-dimensional loadouts, more freedom to move around, and will require us all to rethink our MWO builds and strategies.

It does none of those, it has the potential to make this game more one-dimensional than it already is.

Appogee, on 09 August 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:

And yet, MWO seems to have the lowest TTK of any of them.

It really doesn't. Alphas are lower overall because free tonnage is lower. Also no-armor LBX40 Adders were a thing in MW4, and they did around 56 damage in an alpha, completely pinpoint. There was no shielding because damage transfer wasn't reduced and it went to the internals of what it was transferring to so you had no zombies like the Stalker or Atlas. Mechs fell down after being hit with enough damage in a certain time frame making the kill even easier, etc etc. The only thing that was different was the time it took to actually get to an engagement in that game.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 August 2016 - 11:25 AM.

[dervishx5]

Appogee, on 09 August 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

That may be. But it's beside the point. The fact is, TTK is too low in MWO, and low TTK makes this feel less like MechWarrior than it should. So it has to be addressed.

I think I just established that low TTK *is* Mechwarrior.

[Gas Guzzler]

Appogee, on 09 August 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

So, how frequently do you want to be able to fire all your weapons all at once...?

This game is already to simple. Ghost Heat - even though I despise the mechanic for its sheer illogicality - at least made people need to use a few weapon groups and give a little more thought to when and how often they would fire.

I think Energy Draw has the potential to be more encompassing and increase the overall feel of the game, as if we are piloting highly-armored battle machines with diverse weapons ... and not just a huge gun with a big red button that fires everything all the time.

Of course, there's every chance PGI will screw it up.

There's a heat limit, and when you get close to that limit you have to either hide or just shoot part of your weapons. Look I get preventing people from firing 4 perfectly synced up PPCs, or 3 Gauss rifles, or 5-6 ERLL. But mixing weapons is not a huge issue for me. If you are moving and someone shoots you from 700 meters away with ER PPCs and Gauss, the two different weapons aren't going to hit the same spot. If you are close they will, but you can also easily overpower that low DPS, hot build with more suitable weapons. I gotta say at extreme range, I typically end up firing the Gauss and ER PPCs separately anyway. Mixing in MLs (which are not heat efficient and have relatively short range) with your LPLs or ER LLs is also a trade off... you have more alpha damage but shorter range (than say 4 LPLs), and your MLs aren't even great brawling weapons..

"All your weapons" can mean very different things. If 4 AC5s is ALL my weapons, then I would say "Every 1.5 seconds" or whatever their cooldown is until heat limit is reached.

[Appogee]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 11:22 AM, said:

"All your weapons" can mean very different things. If 4 AC5s is ALL my weapons, then I would say "Every 1.5 seconds" or whatever their cooldown is until heat limit is reached.

And in future you'll have an 'energy draw limit' instead of a 'heat limit'.

So, why the concern?

But 20 points of damage from your 4AC5s is a DPS build, not the high-alpha builds we have been talking about, and that Energy Draw is trying to rein in.

[Gas Guzzler]

Appogee, on 09 August 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

And in future you'll have an 'energy draw limit' instead of a 'heat limit'.

So, why the concern?

But 20 points of damage from your 4AC5s is a DPS build, not the high-alpha builds we have been talking about, and that Energy Draw is trying to rein in.

The concern is that it unevenly affects different weapon loadouts. If I can't do 50 damage with lasers then I'm going to bring different weapons. Period. No lasers.

So what happens when that 20 damage alpha DPS build is untouched, and the high alpha builds that compete with it are executed by Ghost Heat 2.0?

[Appogee]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

So what happens when that 20 damage alpha DPS build is untouched, and the high alpha builds that compete with it are executed by Ghost Heat 2.0?

None of us know yet the extent to which the 20 damage Alpha build will be constrained by Energy Draw.

[Gas Guzzler]

Appogee, on 09 August 2016 - 11:35 AM, said:

None of us know yet the extent to which the 20 damage Alpha build will be constrained by Energy Draw.

Yes we do. It won't be. "Energy Draw" is just ghost heat with all weapons linked, with a max damage at once value, which will start around 30 damage. 4 AC5s would only be affected if they lower that damage limit to something less than 20 (which is HIGHLY unlikely).

Oh it will also include a bar on your HUD that indicates how close to the damage limit you get.

Russ on "Energy Draw":

@GasGuzzler60 @Mogney_SRPH @ussultimatum @DDettmam honestly could describe energy draw as heatscale with work arounds fixed with Hud support

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 09 August 2016 - 11:40 AM.

[badaa]

listening to what the community wants is what has been keeping this game from moving forward

[Zolaz]

badaa, on 09 August 2016 - 02:24 PM, said:

listening to what the community wants is what has been keeping this game from moving forward

That is what a leader does, it processes all the information and then distills it down to a workable form. The problem isnt the community, it is the guy driving the bus.

[Johnny Z]

Zolaz, on 09 August 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

That is what a leader does, it processes all the information and then distills it down to a workable form. The problem isnt the community, it is the guy driving the bus.

Who says? You? No one wants to hear your pointless negative opinions.

Don't have anything to say on the subject and only want to trash people? Get lost.

Edited by Johnny Z, 09 August 2016 - 03:07 PM.

[dervishx5]

Johnny Z, on 09 August 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:

Who says? You? No one wants to hear your pointless negative opinions.

Don't have anything to say on the subject and only want to trash people? Get lost.

I want to hear his opinions. What are you, a commissar? Leave the censorship to the mods. You're in no position to judge the worth of a post.

Edited by dervishx5, 09 August 2016 - 03:12 PM.

[Johnny Z]

dervishx5, on 09 August 2016 - 03:11 PM, said:

I want to hear his opinions. What are you, a commissar? Leave the censorship to the mods. You're in no position to judge the worth of a post.

Trashing people is not an opinion on this topic. Not sure why that sort of thing is ok around here.

What if I said I want to hear his opinion to and just don't want to see a bunch of bashing going on.

Edited by Johnny Z, 09 August 2016 - 03:24 PM.

[dervishx5]

Johnny Z, on 09 August 2016 - 03:15 PM, said:

What if I said I want to hear his opinion to and just don't want to see a bunch of bashing going on.

Then that would be a more constructive and adult way of getting your point across.

You don't get a toddler to stop throwing a tantrum by throwing one yourself.

Edited by dervishx5, 09 August 2016 - 03:21 PM.

[Johnny Z]

dervishx5, on 09 August 2016 - 03:21 PM, said:

Then that would be a more constructive and adult way of getting your point across.

You don't get a toddler to stop throwing a tantrum by throwing one yourself.

I'm not talking to a toddler, and I just said if hes going to bash people do it somewhere else. I don't want to hear it. maybe others don't either. I got as much right to ask him to bash elsewhere as he has to do bashing I guess or what? You got a problem with that?

[FupDup]

Appogee, on 09 August 2016 - 11:35 AM, said:

None of us know yet the extent to which the 20 damage Alpha build will be constrained by Energy Draw.

If they heavily constrain an alpha of 20 damage, that would make a single AC/20 (with no other weapons fired with it) completely useless.

[DjPush]

Yes. I have been waiting two years for it. Time for PGI to sack up and stop listening to the bads on the forums. You have an idea PGI, just follow through with it and to hell with the cry babies. Look what listening to the QQ has gotten you so far. Nothing, more QQ. Just do it!