819 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Johnny Z, on 10 August 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

Ok fine if you say so.

No offense but I hope the energy draw is in tomorrow.

Ideally it would be 25 point limit on alpha with .5 recovery or something like that.

None taken but if you really want Dakka only on heavies and assaults then you will get what you wish for. Negligible step forward in TTK (at most..), HUGE step back in balance.

Johnny Z, on 10 August 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

This lets a dual AC 20 jagermech chain fire basically and that a strong mech doing really good damage.

Lets a 50 kph King Crab Dual ac 20 do the same thing.

Neither of those mechs are very good. The 3 UAC5 Jager is much better.

[Johnny Z]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 August 2016 - 08:07 AM, said:

None taken but if you really want Dakka only on heavies and assaults then you will get what you wish for. Negligible step forward in TTK (at most..), HUGE step back in balance.



Neither of those mechs are very good. The 3 UAC5 Jager is much better.

That's sort of my point. Comparitivly they are not amazing now but they should be.

I will just say this. I havnt seen any over powered use of ballistics in this game in years maybe. Even the new Kodiak AC 10 boat isn't over powered much if at all.

I seen a Nova walk up to one and core it instantly very recently though.

Edited by Johnny Z, 10 August 2016 - 08:13 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

6 PPC builds might be fun under Energy Draw. If you shoot 3 x 3 you do 60 damage over 0.5 seconds, PPFLD. TTK will be SO high, yay!

Edit: I said fun not good! It will still be hot as balls.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 10 August 2016 - 08:12 AM.

[lpmagic]

First thing to remember in this conversation, is that, almost everyone in here plays at or around different levels, it is a proven point that these levels can't agree on "what works now" thus you have the discussion above about Black Knights and Warhammers...in comp circles, the warhammer is clearly superior after the "resizening" but that may simply not be the case at all levels or even time zones/regions of play. has laser vomit become top dog, well yes, but, it has not reigned as long as Peeps and Gauss/ peeps and ac5's did, nor has it been as all consuming.

I constantly say that I would like the test server to run a set, flat out without quirks to simply see where we are on TTK, and how the current ghost heat system would affect play style, problem with this is, that, like 50 people play on the test server when it is available (hint: put some rewards in there and this would grow exponentially)

Back to the matter at hand, I am a fan of EXPLORING energy draw as a replacement to ghost heat, I am also a fan of doubling armor and leaving it as it is and moving on. What i want is a stable platform so the Devs can find a final balance level, but things have become way to complicated, simple works best, and working from the ground up without ghost heat, without quirks, and without energy draw would simply be best. We are on the verge of tweeking, tweeks, that were tweeked tweeks of other tweeks, something gets lost every time.

Gimme energy draw to play with on the side on the test server, I'll give it a weeks play time (so long as it's after mwowc) and I'll get some other folks to play too, heck, we'll even fill out serious feedback comments for PGI, but in return, I would also like to see a flat clean slate to try as well, you can't have an experiment without a base line, and our base line is just so murky right now.......

[Gas Guzzler]

lpmagic, on 10 August 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

has laser vomit become top dog, well yes

I read the whole post, but really, dakka and ER PPC/Gauss have been much more prevalent on the tourney build, and that is without the Black Knight/GHR being enlarged and de-quirked. Black Widow was slightly de-quirked as well, but it fared better on the resize. I would argue laser vomit is definitely not top dog anymore.

Like I said in another thread, if somehow magically energy draw maintains balance between laser vomit, dakka, PPFLD, and SRM brawling, as good as the balance is now, then I'll be fine with it but still think its a waste of dev time and unnecessary. I just feel pretty strongly that it isn't going to end up that way, and some lemmings will say "oh I played ONE match on the PTS and TTK seemed so much better, THANK YOU RUSS" so PGI will push it through.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 10 August 2016 - 08:19 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 August 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

I read the whole post, but really, dakka and ER PPC/Gauss have been much more prevalent on the tourney build, and that is without the Black Knight/GHR being enlarged and de-quirked. Black Widow was slightly de-quirked as well, but it fared better on the resize. I would argue laser vomit is definitely not top dog anymore.

Awsome. Than everyone will have a party when the power draw is in game. I was looking forward to the entertaining memes and complaints though.

Edited by Johnny Z, 10 August 2016 - 08:20 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 August 2016 - 07:50 AM, said:

Accuracy measurements by this game are very misleading. First, if you graze a component for a millisecond with a laser it counts as a hit. Second, it doesn't take into account that you hit the component you were aiming for.

Again, how often do you actually miss, and is missing enough of a deterrent to stop a good player from alpha striking? Is it enough of a deterrent to stop a bad pilot from alpha striking? No. That is why this game is AlphaStrikeWarrior:Online.

Gas Guzzler, on 10 August 2016 - 07:50 AM, said:

What logical reason is there to benefit chain firing? I don't see it. I chain fire when I am not under duress and if I have two different projectile weapons that don't have the same velocity (like ER PPC and Gauss).

Exactly, there is no benefit to chain fire, and that detracts from the BT universe. Even with your ERPPC/Gauss, group fire is always used for each weapon group, am I right? The whole group will hit under reticle.

Gas Guzzler, on 10 August 2016 - 07:50 AM, said:

The issue I see is, loadouts like 4 AC5 are untouched by energy draw, same with 3 UAC10s, or 2 UAC10s and 2 UAC5s, or 6 UAC5s. How are laser loadouts ever going to compete with those if they can't alpha and twist? Laser vomit already falls short of those loadouts nowadays, this is just going to put the nail in the coffin.

I, for one, welcome our new dakka overlords. (j/k)
Clearly, it is an inelegant solution. Just as ghost heat was an inelegant solution as long as there is no actual heat scale.
The problem that they will never touch is accuracy. Accurate group fire just isn't a thing in the BT universe. Any real fixes to the problem that do not deal with the perfect precision of group fired weapons is nothing more than a band-aid fix.

Gas Guzzler, on 10 August 2016 - 07:50 AM, said:

It's not a player skill thing, it's primarily a balance issue. The other issue is the perceived low TTK which is typically a result of someone screwing up. I see it all the time, I've done it myself, it happens, but it is avoidable. The real joke is that Energy Draw is not going to change TTK. Ballistic DPS is not known for high TTK... it tears through armor like butter.

I can agree that it is a balance issue, but TTK is too low. Battlemechs are supposed to be juggernaughts of the battlefield, not some machine that can be rendered ineffective with just a few alpha strikes.

[Johnny Z]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 August 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

I read the whole post, but really, dakka and ER PPC/Gauss have been much more prevalent on the tourney build, and that is without the Black Knight/GHR being enlarged and de-quirked. Black Widow was slightly de-quirked as well, but it fared better on the resize. I would argue laser vomit is definitely not top dog anymore.

Like I said in another thread, if somehow magically energy draw maintains balance between laser vomit, dakka, PPFLD, and SRM brawling, as good as the balance is now, then I'll be fine with it but still think its a waste of dev time and unnecessary. I just feel pretty strongly that it isn't going to end up that way, and some lemmings will say "oh I played ONE match on the PTS and TTK seemed so much better, THANK YOU RUSS" so PGI will push it through.

I don't see any drawback at all. If it limits some of the high alphas then its all good. Win win.

Seriously what is the drawback. Ac's and Gauss become stronger? They don't, they remain the same, maybe at best more preferable.

Also lets face it, it will be SRM's that the exploiters will run to and face hug everyone so their aim bots don't miss.

Edited by Johnny Z, 10 August 2016 - 08:34 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Hotthedd, on 10 August 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

I can agree that it is a balance issue, but TTK is too low. Battlemechs are supposed to be juggernaughts of the battlefield, not some machine that can be rendered ineffective with just a few alpha strikes.

Where does this perception come from?

Novels? Mechs are disabled by a couple of sub-alpha strike hits on multiple occasions.
Old MechWarrior games? Nope, the computer AI mechs die easily.
TT? someone else will have to answer that, but given you can get unlucky and get headshotted in one hit... meh. How long would a Shadow Hawk with an XL engine last with 8 mech all targeting it? 1 turn?

Frankly, I find TTK okay. I watch people do stupid things and get killed quickly and cringe because I know they are going to complain about TTK, but really, its not THAT fast.

The reference to the BT universe isn't really applicable. Yes this is a BattleTech game in that the content is BASED on the BattleTech Universe, but every MechWarrior and MechCommander game has deviated from what is strictly "BattleTech" to a significant degree, so I don't get why we should be hamstrung to dice rolling levels of inaccuracy because accurate group shots "weren't a thing in the BT universe".

What's funny is, the dakka overlords are already here, and there is another one on the way, coming next month. They will be unaffected by energy draw, and they will still maintain the same TTK that we have now, so all energy draw is, is a step backwards in balance. Yeah, you will have some Battlemasters trudging around the battlefield in the public queue with 4 LPLs, with a total duration of 1.2 seconds with will be okay, but Clan energy boats will be really screwed with how long the durations are. Its just taking this balance that has actually become pretty good and map dependent (SRMs, Dakka, PPCs, Gauss, Lasers all being viable), and just restricting it to primarily dakka, with some SRMs and lasers on lights and a mix on mediums. That's my concern, as there are a lot of Heavy/Assault mechs that are supposed to use lasers and aren't really suited to use anything else. Chain firing lasers vs dakka is HEAVILY favoring the dakka in that exchange.

Johnny Z, on 10 August 2016 - 08:29 AM, said:

I don't see any drawback at all. If it limits some of the high alphas then its all good. Win win.

Seriously what is the drawback. Ac's and Gauss become stronger? They don't, they remain the same, maybe at best more preferable.

The drawback is less balance than we have now for no gain. High alphas aren't even what competitive teams are using, with the exception of the PPC/Gauss Kodiak. (50 damage, PP)

[EvilCow]

I would have implemented something different.

Let's set a damage threshold, 30 for example but it could be linked to mech parameters like engine rating, chassis weight etc.

Any group fire above the threshold would have an impact on weapons performance:

- Lasers would have duration increased, excessive power drain requires a slower discharge (affected by engine rating, higher rating == more energy available per time unit).
- SRMs and LRMs would have spread increases because extra avoidance maneuvers, many missiles at once.
- ACs/UACs would have their accuracy reduced because recoil (affected by mass, heavier == less recoil).
- LBX would have spread increased because recoil (affected by mass, heavier == less recoil).
- PPCs would cause an electromagnetic feedback into the mech causing it to shutdown for 10 seconds (affected by mass, higher mass == higher threshold).

I am worried that the system being implemented will not bother going into nice meaningful details, like ghost heat before it.

[lpmagic]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 August 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

I read the whole post, but really, dakka and ER PPC/Gauss have been much more prevalent on the tourney build, and that is without the Black Knight/GHR being enlarged and de-quirked. Black Widow was slightly de-quirked as well, but it fared better on the resize. I would argue laser vomit is definitely not top dog anymore.

Like I said in another thread, if somehow magically energy draw maintains balance between laser vomit, dakka, PPFLD, and SRM brawling, as good as the balance is now, then I'll be fine with it but still think its a waste of dev time and unnecessary. I just feel pretty strongly that it isn't going to end up that way, and some lemmings will say "oh I played ONE match on the PTS and TTK seemed so much better, THANK YOU RUSS" so PGI will push it through.

I don't think the tourney client really has diddily to do with this thread (though I agree with you wholheartedly, as you are correct in how that is going) the tourney "meta" is dictated by a whole different level of stressors, not the least of which is being restricted to the one map, and to specialized set ups to fit specific needs based on strats, heck Gas, you know all that:)

I play a fair bit in the pub queue, though that gets harder and harder for me to do lately because of the differences, and the lack of friends playing in anything but the tourney, and, the pug queue is very much a mixed bag, but right now I do see more lasers and peeps then just about anything else, I do miss things at times so I could be wrong, but for right now it still seems to be top 's to a degree. And, caveat here, I sit firmly in the camp that feels that we have some fairly good parity right now in weapons balance, more so than we have in a while, so i feel that "meta" in pub queue is almost more of a "personal choice" and I have seen plenty of dakka running about, I see plenty of lurms......those still suck, but I do see more than I have in a while.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hotthedd, on 10 August 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

That is why this game is AlphaStrikeWarrior:Online.

Only to people who don't know any better.

Hotthedd, on 10 August 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

Exactly, there is no benefit to chain fire, and that detracts from the BT universe.

Many would be willing to say that removing alphas detract from Mechwarrior. Sure Mechwarrior is based off of BT, but that doesn't mean it has to be 1:1 with it. Making chain fire a thing implies that big weapons need to have some benefit when chain fired as opposed to alphaing a bunch of smaller weapons that most people don't consider wrong (like AC5s). Exactly how do you actually make those big guns suddenly worth it then? The goal of making chain fire a thing for mechs that stack weapons forces the game into a one dimensional balance situation where the goal only becomes which setup gives you the best bang, stacking a bunch of smaller weapons or chain firing a bunch of big weapons. Compared to what we have now where DPS and alphas are both a consideration.

Hotthedd, on 10 August 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

Even with your ERPPC/Gauss, group fire is always used for each weapon group, am I right? The whole group will hit under reticle.

You're actually wrong, ERPPC/Gauss is almost always separate groups because timings are different since Gauss has both a charge up and a faster velocity. The idea is to time your shots to hit the same area but that takes time to get down, even I don't have that down.

Hotthedd, on 10 August 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

I can agree that it is a balance issue, but TTK is too low. Battlemechs are supposed to be juggernaughts of the battlefield, not some machine that can be rendered ineffective with just a few alpha strikes.

So you want us to all charge at each other and have a giant slug fest rather than actually make positioning matter because you don't really pay for your mistakes?

[Johnny Z]

I will even say this about the topic. The longer it takes to get power draw in, the more legit players will be lost.

With a higher TTK, many of the "Thinking mans shooter" players may return to find a better game even.

Edited by Johnny Z, 10 August 2016 - 09:04 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Johnny Z, on 10 August 2016 - 08:58 AM, said:

I will even say this about the topic. The longer it takes to power draw in, the more legit players will be lost.

Power draw and alphas are the least of this game's problems.

[Johnny Z]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 August 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

Power draw and alphas are the least of this game's problems.

I would say that aside from a couple problems, low TTK is the biggest gameplay problem and by far the easiest to fix.

On top of that this power draw will even make other problems, less so.

Don't get me started on lack of content or the warrior missing from MechWarrior, that's another topic entirely.

Edited by Johnny Z, 10 August 2016 - 09:02 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 August 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

Where does this perception come from?

Novels? Mechs are disabled by a couple of sub-alpha strike hits on multiple occasions.

You may want to re-read a bit more thoroughly. With the exceptions of very lucky shots and timely critical hits, 'mech on 'mech battles were slug fest battles of attrition.

Gas Guzzler, on 10 August 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

Old MechWarrior games? Nope, the computer AI mechs die easily.

Older Mechwarrior games were designed that way as they were single-player, PVE games. There is no need to repeat those mistakes in MW:O.

Gas Guzzler, on 10 August 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

TT? someone else will have to answer that, but given you can get unlucky and get headshotted in one hit... meh. How long would a Shadow Hawk with an XL engine last with 8 mech all targeting it? 1 turn?

Head shots are a separate thing entirely. How long would the Shadow Hawk last? It would depend on the movement of the 'mechs involved. Could that only be 10 seconds? Sure. But even that is 9 seconds longer than in MW:O, and the chances are actually very good that it would survive that turn, and none of the other mechs on its team would have taken any damage.

Gas Guzzler, on 10 August 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

Frankly, I find TTK okay. I watch people do stupid things and get killed quickly and cringe because I know they are going to complain about TTK, but really, its not THAT fast.

Yes, stupid things are punished. But I am not talking about ONLY player error. Until someone can tell me how not to be "Charlie" when the OpFor leader says "focus Charlie", TTK is too fast.

Gas Guzzler, on 10 August 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

The reference to the BT universe isn't really applicable. Yes this is a BattleTech game in that the content is BASED on the BattleTech Universe, but every MechWarrior and MechCommander game has deviated from what is strictly "BattleTech" to a significant degree, so I don't get why we should be hamstrung to dice rolling levels of inaccuracy because accurate group shots "weren't a thing in the BT universe".

The argumentum ad populum fallacy aside, just because other games were badly designed for PvP does not make them authoritative.
Who said anything about rolling dice? You really lose me in an honest discussion when you use reductio ad absurdium arguments that I never even claimed to make.

Gas Guzzler, on 10 August 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

What's funny is, the dakka overlords are already here, and there is another one on the way, coming next month. They will be unaffected by energy draw, and they will still maintain the same TTK that we have now, so all energy draw is, is a step backwards in balance. Yeah, you will have some Battlemasters trudging around the battlefield in the public queue with 4 LPLs, with a total duration of 1.2 seconds with will be okay, but Clan energy boats will be really screwed with how long the durations are. Its just taking this balance that has actually become pretty good and map dependent (SRMs, Dakka, PPCs, Gauss, Lasers all being viable), and just restricting it to primarily dakka, with some SRMs and lasers on lights and a mix on mediums. That's my concern, as there are a lot of Heavy/Assault mechs that are supposed to use lasers and aren't really suited to use anything else. Chain firing lasers vs dakka is HEAVILY favoring the dakka in that exchange.

Like I said, it is an inelegant solution. But ACs do have the downside of being much heavier and ammo dependent, so I am okay with it.

[Gas Guzzler]

Hotthedd, on 10 August 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

The argumentum ad populum fallacy aside, just because other games were badly designed for PvP does not make them authoritative.
Who said anything about rolling dice? You really lose me in an honest discussion when you use reductio ad absurdium arguments that I never even claimed to make.

Like I said, it is an inelegant solution. But ACs do have the downside of being much heavier and ammo dependent, so I am okay with it.

It was a slight exaggeration, but related to your comment that "accurate group shots were not a thing in the BT universe". All the latin, I'm so impressed..

Anyways, the downside of ACs seems to be much less than the upside because AC loadouts on heavies and assaults easily outperform laser vomit, high alpha options, with the one exception of the ER PPC/Gauss Kodiak that still has its role. So saying that you are "okay" with AC loadouts being dominant means you are "okay" with worse weapon balance than we have now.. I hope you realize that is what that means.

[DjPush]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 04:42 PM, said:

You have been waiting two years for a zerg rush dakka meta? Why? Lol.

Because I am tired of two years of zerg rush pew pew meta.

[Hotthedd]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 August 2016 - 08:53 AM, said:

Only to people who don't know any better.

Maybe you should get out more...

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 August 2016 - 08:53 AM, said:

Many would be willing to say that removing alphas detract from Mechwarrior. Sure Mechwarrior is based off of BT, but that doesn't mean it has to be 1:1 with it.

I never advocated for removing alpha strikes, only that they should have an accuracy downside that makes group fire vs. chain fire an actual choice.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 August 2016 - 08:53 AM, said:

Making chain fire a thing implies that big weapons need to have some benefit when chain fired as opposed to alphaing a bunch of smaller weapons that most people don't consider wrong (like AC5s). Exactly how do you actually make those big guns suddenly worth it then?

I would argue that the benefit of more damage to one location per shot would be a BIG advantage.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 August 2016 - 08:53 AM, said:

The goal of making chain fire a thing for mechs that stack weapons forces the game into a one dimensional balance situation where the goal only becomes which setup gives you the best bang, stacking a bunch of smaller weapons or chain firing a bunch of big weapons. Compared to what we have now where DPS and alphas are both a consideration.

We ARE in a one-dimensional balance situation. It is all about the alpha. (Or at least, the group fire)

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 August 2016 - 08:53 AM, said:

You're actually wrong, ERPPC/Gauss is almost always separate groups because timings are different since Gauss has both a charge up and a faster velocity. The idea is to time your shots to hit the same area but that takes time to get down, even I don't have that down.

You misunderstood my reply. I was saying that a 2ERPPC/1 GR setup would still fire both ERPPCs as one, or a 2GR/1ERPPC set up would still fire the 2 GR as one, given that the weapons were in 2 different groups.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 August 2016 - 08:53 AM, said:

So you want us to all charge at each other and have a giant slug fest rather than actually make positioning matter because you don't really pay for your mistakes?

That is not what I said at all. Bad positioning will still lead to the same outcome.

[Gas Guzzler]

Hotthedd, on 10 August 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

You may want to re-read a bit more thoroughly. With the exceptions of very lucky shots and timely critical hits, 'mech on 'mech battles were slug fest battles of attrition.

Yes, stupid things are punished. But I am not talking about ONLY player error. Until someone can tell me how not to be "Charlie" when the OpFor leader says "focus Charlie", TTK is too fast.

Novels: Whether it was convenient for the plot determined whether or not it was a quick kill or a long drawn out dramatic slug fest.

Charlie: Think of it as a chess game. Don't put yourself in a position where the enemy team can shoot you and your team can't shoot the enemy team.