413 replies to this topic

[Juodas Varnas]

MeiSooHaityu, on 01 August 2016 - 02:56 AM, said:

I'd rather add the clan ERPPC mechanic to LBX cannons instead of increasing pellet damage.

It fires like a single slug and "bursts" just before impact applying a large percentage of damage to the location you aimed at and the remaing %of damage is spread to surrounding hitboxes.

This just seems like the better alternarive to me.

It's an alternative, for sure.

But to say it's better, i'd like to actually test them out.
If only there was some sort of... Public test server or something. /Sarcasm

[adamts01]

cazidin, on 31 July 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

1.They're ignorant. 2.They're stupid. 3.They're trolls. 4.It's Paul.

Pick any of the above up to 4.

I'll add tier 5 to that.

My take on the LBX: Crits are stupid. 1 alpha cores a mech, the next kills it. Maybe Ghost Heat 2.0 where we have to chip away at a mech will make crits more valuable. So in this current game state it's all about damage. Increase each pellet till the weapon starts seeing some equal use to the regular ACs. If crits did matter, then each pellet should have a chance to crit for the full damage of the weapon, and weapon damage could stay as it is now. As for damage fallof, stupid spread fixes the problem already. It doesn't matter if the few pellets that hit still do full damage. It doesn't make much sense physically, but nothing else in this game does either, the LBX shouldn't have some unique falloff penalty till the other weapons do.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Juodas Varnas, on 01 August 2016 - 03:00 AM, said:

It's an alternative, for sure.

But to say it's better, i'd like to actually test them out.
If only there was some sort of... Public test server or something. /Sarcasm

Well, I'll say that I think an C-ERPPC type mechanic to LBX would work better for large ballistics vs small. I don't know if an LBX2 applying 1 damage to target hitbox and a half point to each surrounding hitbox is possible (not sure if game registers half point hits). Also it just makes the weapon even more blah.

In either case, like you said, testing it would be great. It would be nice to have that test server :/

[EvilCow]

In MW4 increased damage compared to ACs worked very well.

It is a logical, acceptable, easy to implement, easy to test and zero effort fix for this whole class. On top it would also be easy to revert or adjust.

Of course it is not going to happen.

[dwwolf]

Much better to give LBX AC pellets an outright chance to kill a component. How does 10 to 20% sound ? LBX ACs need some bite.

I would really prefer some kind of gated proximity fuse for LBX functionality
Its the only way to transfer how LBX functions in board game accurately to MWO.

A variant of ERPPC damage would be a distant second option, IMHO , to change LBX prolly 50% frontloaded damage and the rest randomly. Provided we also include the better equipment destruction chance.

Edited by dwwolf, 01 August 2016 - 04:41 AM.

[dwwolf]

And obviously the critical damage system needs to be reworked.
Actuator gyro or life support damage should be meaningfull.

We need through armor crits as well.( for all weapons).
But only if the whole crit system is reworked.

Edited by dwwolf, 01 August 2016 - 04:48 AM.

[kesmai]

Just take a look at the next mechpack while we are looking into this.

[Antares102]

cazidin, on 31 July 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

1.They're ignorant. 2.They're stupid. 3.They're trolls. 4.It's Paul.

Pick any of the above up to 4.

May I pick all 7? .. oh wait..

But hey nice to see that this thread is still alive.
It would really really be so great to build your mechs from a larger usefull weapon pool

Edited by Antares102, 01 August 2016 - 06:16 AM.

[Blind Baku]

So serious question, I am a T3 scrub, to be clear, and I am about to invoke the "I do well..." but when it comes to heavies the LK is my favorite mech right now (so also invoke the "Uses heavily quirked mech", anyone get a bingo yet?), but in group queues I've gone against some serious teams before (teams I remember thinking "oh F--- I just watch these guys steam roll people in the quals") and found I did surprisingly well.

I get that the IS-LBX10 (can't speak for the clan variant, not sure I would ever use it) is NOT in a good spot, but from my limited experience, on some mechs it seems to work well, in a specific roll (2nd line, brawler of a sort), would an acceptable solution be to move the quality of the weapon up to match those mechs quirks, while toning the quirks themselves back?

TL;DR, adjust Cooldown ~25%, clip spread back to tighten it up. So the pinpoint damage (IS-AC10) still cycles at 2.5sec, but the IS-LBX10 would cycle at ~1.8sec. It would still not be an alpha weapon, but at least that would give it a better "DPS", a tighter spread would also help there, maybe even add a module for additional choke, you know, shotgun-ishness...

A module that would work as a choke might look something like a non-lore solution to toggleable ammo. Module = Choke for near 0 spread, at the cost of [pick your balance cost], once you hit [insert/home/whatever button your module is keyed to] the choke drops and you're stuck with normal LBX spread but gain [perks]

Just some thoughts trying to help come to a solution (In case it was missed, I don't think the LBX is in a good place unless heavily aided by quirks, but if you still need another box for your bingo card "The LBX is fine" "It does extra crit damage"* "It's got good range"... did I miss any?)

*Also can someone explain to me, like I'm 5, how it does not actually do extra crit damage? I see the numbers on the wiki, and it 'feels' like it does in game, so I'm confused... help please.

Edited by Blind Baku, 01 August 2016 - 06:39 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

dwwolf, on 01 August 2016 - 04:47 AM, said:

And obviously the critical damage system needs to be reworked.
Actuator gyro or life support damage should be meaningfull.

We need through armor crits as well.( for all weapons).
But only if the whole crit system is reworked.

God no. TACs in this game would make this game worse in an instant, they were nice for speeding up games in TT, but that was it, it made the game more subject to RNG and this would be no different. Those moments where you lose weapons instantly because someone got a lucky TAC were horrible, let's not replicate those scenarios here.

If you want actuator, gyro, or life support to be meaningful, they should be special hitboxes, not RNG crit based.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 August 2016 - 06:43 AM.

[pyrocomp]

MeiSooHaityu, on 01 August 2016 - 02:56 AM, said:

I'd rather add the clan ERPPC mechanic to LBX cannons instead of increasing pellet damage.

It fires like a single slug and "bursts" just before impact applying a large percentage of damage to the location you aimed at and the remaing %of damage is spread to surrounding hitboxes.

This just seems like the better alternarive to me.

And how the LBX will be different from ERPPC? If heat, then why use PPCs, if not, then ammo slots and weight is against LBX. Why then use this or that weapon? Weapons should be really different not to be obsoletted by a minor stat udpate of quirkening N.n barrage.

Edited by pyrocomp, 01 August 2016 - 06:48 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

pyrocomp, on 01 August 2016 - 06:48 AM, said:

And how the LBX will be different from ERPPC? If heat, then why use PPCs, if not, then ammo slots and weight is against LBX. Why then use this or that weapon? Weapons should be really different not to be obsoletted by a minor stat udpate of quirkening N.n barrage.

Really?

Well, a LBX is a ballistic vs an ERPPC being an energy weapon with their own unique hard points. Ballistics have ammo and energy doesn't. PPCs still temporarily disable ECM, LBXs don't. LBX still does bonus crit damage, PPCs don't. I think they are pretty unique still. Really, with that argument, why have different types of lasers (standard, pulse, and ER), when the mechanic is the same.

Also, LBXs already spread damage like an C-ERPPC, just at more close range. How is helping maintain that mechanic at longer ranges bad?

It wouldn't obsolete anything, I'm not sure why you would think so. It's essentially like saying why use an A/C10 when you can use an ERPPC? I just don't see your argument being the case.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 01 August 2016 - 07:02 AM.

[davoodoo]

pyrocomp, on 01 August 2016 - 06:48 AM, said:

And how the LBX will be different from ERPPC? If heat, then why use PPCs, if not, then ammo slots and weight is against LBX. Why then use this or that weapon? Weapons should be really different not to be obsoletted by a minor stat udpate of quirkening N.n barrage.

The same way as ac10 and is erppc...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MeiSooHaityu, on 01 August 2016 - 07:01 AM, said:

It wouldn't obsolete anything, I'm not sure why you would think so. It's essentially like saying why use an A/C10 when you can use an ERPPC? I just don't see your argument being the case.

Well you do run into the problem that LBX is essentially an AC10 at that point, finding a sweet spot where the AC10 is not outclassed or shadows the LBX in the damage department is going to be rough, whereas buffing pellet damage would be a better fix because at least it would be a more of a shoe-in for short range builds.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 August 2016 - 07:06 AM.

[davoodoo]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 August 2016 - 07:05 AM, said:

Well you do run into the problem that LBX is essentially an AC10 at that point, finding a sweet spot where the AC10 is not outclassed or shadows the LBX in the damage department is going to be rough, whereas buffing pellet damage would be a better fix because at least it would be a more of a shoe-in for short range builds.

Why not ask tt how they managed to do that??

Specialty ammo...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

davoodoo, on 01 August 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

Specialty ammo...

Which we won't ever get because of no ammo-switching...sure it would be nice, but I don't see them devoting resources into that anytime soon.

[davoodoo]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 August 2016 - 07:14 AM, said:

Which we won't ever get because of no ammo-switching...sure it would be nice, but I don't see them devoting resources into that anytime soon.

I given idea how to implement it without ammo switching page or 2 earlier.

ac10, ac10(incendiary), ac10(precision) and corresponding ammo.

Edited by davoodoo, 01 August 2016 - 07:15 AM.

[Yellonet]

50% crit chance per pellet, thank you.

[pyrocomp]

davoodoo, on 01 August 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:

The same way as ac10 and is erppc...

Except for projectile fall-off and rather different speed, yep.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 August 2016 - 07:05 AM, said:

Well you do run into the problem that LBX is essentially an AC10 at that point, finding a sweet spot where the AC10 is not outclassed or shadows the LBX in the damage department is going to be rough, whereas buffing pellet damage would be a better fix because at least it would be a more of a shoe-in for short range builds.

I suppose the difference would be the percentage of damage applied to the target hitbox and the spread to surrounding hitboxes as well. It still spreads damage so if you hit the CT, you still have the chance to destroy a damaged side torso (regardless of twisting). Even then, an LBX should still maintain it's crit ability so all three torsos would in theory have a chance to be crited equally with the LBX crit chance. Those are unique properties not shared with an A/C10.

Besides, all LBXs are like A/Cs if you are close enough.

I do understand the appeal. With increasing pellet damage only you could potentially get a 12 damage A/C 10 at face hug ranges (although I still think spread would hit 2 locations or some would miss). Thing is, as soon as the range opens up to medium, you still are spreading all over the place.

It just seems like a Clan ERPPC mechanic helps keep focus with damage at all ranges but maintains a spread effect.

All I know is we have LBX quirked chassis with double (or more) DPS and/or tighter spread and people still tend not to use the LBX. It just seems like the mechanic in general as is just doesn't work.

Regardless, we could always try more pellet damage, but I'm not too confident it would do much.