108 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Image not found.

Oh my god, he was wrong?!?!? If only everyone already knew this!

Maybe PGI should actually say what CASE does in the description, or have it in the wiki! That would save so much confus.....

Oh, wait.



I suspect OP had spent almost all ammo and there was like 8 rounds of LRM ammo left in the ST so it wasn't enough to totally blow ST out.

So he makes a bad assumption and now it's his lucky feather.

[Sorbic]

I'm sure it's almost completely confirmation bias but can IS CASE be hit like other components? I mean is there a chance that on RARE occasions the CASE takes incoming damage that might have otherwise popped ammo?

Edited by Sorbic, 30 July 2016 - 09:23 PM.

[Drunken Skull]

Standing still and letting someone "have at you" at will till you explode is hardly an equitable test. Nice try though guys.

@Mischief;
Nicely said, and to a point you may be right but who knows for sure. It may even be an issue with the Archers Hitboxes that I'm mistakenly identifying even. But, there is also the matter of the Stock Archer 5W that also sports this design...

I know when C.A.S.E has saved my a## (piloting an Archer Tempest) when betty goes into critical mode and says "Ammunition Explosion Detected"... Quite often the Ammo level only drops by 1 tonne (which usually indicates to me that only a single weapon managed to breach the armour, as there was only 1 crit roll). At this stage the paper-doll will indicate one of the side torso's has had either the front or rear armour completely stripped down to the core which will be showing as either in the yellow or red. Usually this occurs with a rear side torso breach performed by a flanking light mech carrying a big gun.

Could it be that maybe there is a portion of a tonne of ammunition in a slot and it does "explode", yet doesn't have the curry in it to set off a chain reaction in the rest of the Ammo store? Another possibility that I won't rule out.

Also, I think there is great merit the possibility that as stated by Tarogato, there is simply the advantage gained by the crit padding involved by the mere presence of the C.A.S.E.

Perhaps we are both right in our arguments, Directly the C.A.S.E may not even play a role in the preservation of the XL, but indirectly by being there it reduces the statistical chance of there being an explosion?

Edited by Drunken Skull, 31 July 2016 - 03:24 AM.

[Lostdragon]

Drunken Skull, on 30 July 2016 - 09:21 PM, said:

Standing still and letting someone "have at you" at will till you explode is hardly an equitable test. Nice try though guys.

Then how in the holy hells would you test it?

[Deathlike]

I'm not even sure what the disconnect is with the OP as I want to run my ForumWarrior gag here like everyone else... but let's just use KISS here (Keep It Simple Silly)

Lose side torso on IS XL Engine = Death
CASE = allows section of mech to be destroyed without it transferring to the next location


When the ammo in the side torso explodes on an XL-equipped IS mech, it is dead. It's really that simple.

The damage dealt by the ammo explosion is usually far greater than the internal structure of the mech is it equipped in. For instance, 1 ton of AC20 ammo that explodes is enough to take down an Atlas's Right Torso. 20 damage * 7 bullets = 140 damage... far less than whatever the max internal structure it has.

In the case of Clans, since CASE is everywhere... the Clan Mechs Arms and Legs are automatically protected from instant mech destruction (unless ammo explosion happens on the healthy leg opposite of a dead leg - both legs are usually blown up).

For IS, your CASE "protection" is limited to the side torsos not blowing up the CT. This only matters when you're running a STD engine. If an ammo explosion starts in the arms/leg will deal its full damage and then whatever damage left is transferred to the related side torso. Since ammo explosions are usually large, it's enough to take down the side torso.



There are some instances where equipped ammo doesn't do enough damage to kill a mech, such as AMS ammo... or even lol MG ammo.


So again... CASE does nothing to protect you from ammo explosions that push towards the side torsos. You're ultimately just going to die right then and there. Since you lose the side torso as part of using CASE AND that XL engines death is caused by a side torso... your mech dies.

I don't know what more you are expecting with CASE and XL engines.

[Lucian Nostra]

Drunken Skull, on 30 July 2016 - 09:21 PM, said:

Standing still and letting someone "have at you" at will till you explode is hardly an equitable test. Nice try though guys.

@Mischief;
Nicely said, and to a point you may be right but who knows for sure. It may even be an issue with the Archers Hitboxes that I'm mistakenly identifying even. But, there is also the matter of the Stock Archer 5W that also sports this design...

stock archer stock tons of IS mechs run Case + XL + ammo and none of them get any survivability benefit. No Case can not be crit itself but as stated earlier in the thread ammo can be hit and destroyed but NOT explode (only 10% chance of actually detonating) or when your ammo cooked off that ton only had a few LRMs left and you survived it. The game empties a full ton before working on the next ton it's not equal spend.

You've got screen shots, you've got plenty of proof it doesn't save your mech.

As has been stated CASE on IS XL equipped mechs is a table top holdover because when a mechs CT is destroyed the mech is not able to be repaired but if CASE stops the explosion going to the CT the mech will be out that mission but will be repairable and can be all the difference.

Really shouldn't shock you that yes your STOCK Archer 5W comes with CASE because it's STOCK configuration is based on an entirely different game.

edit: and honestly I hope this is a troll thread because if you've been playing this game since the end of 2012 and you DON'T know how CASE works yet.. holy hell

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 30 July 2016 - 09:30 PM.

[ice trey]

Roadkill, on 30 July 2016 - 07:36 PM, said:

Archer 5W carries case in TT, for the reasons already explained to you in this thread.

From Sarna:

•ARC-5W The 5W was an upgrade of the 2W variant, and was produced for the Wolf's Dragoons by Bowie Industries at Alarion. This was done in an orbital 'Mech repair facility which was converted into a 'Mech assembly line. Introduced in 3050, the 'Mech was upgraded with an XL Engine to save weight and used ten double heat sinks for greater heat dissipation. It retained the two LRM-20 launchers but replaced all other weaponry with one TharHes Blue SRM-4 launchers in each arm and a Narc Missile Beacon launcher in the center torso. The 5W was supplied with four tons of LRM reloads, two tons of SRM reloads, and two tons of Narc reloads, all carried in the CASE-protected side torsos.

Sorry, brah, it doesn't work the way you think it does. CASE on IS Mechs with XL engines is a holdover from TT, where it has (limited) value in campaign settings. It's equally useless in TT in single battles for the same reason that it's useless in MWO - it doesn't actually protect the three engine crits in the side torso, which is sufficient to destroy the Mech.

PGI only very rarely changes stock builds, and that's primarily to make rear-firing weapons fire forward instead, or to move leg-mounted weapons into the side torso. Everything else stays stock so that it's less work for them to create the Mechs.

You're right on the single individual mission level. I usually play that way, too. However, it's painfully obvious that the staff behind Battletech expect you to run it like a sort of RPG, with every campaign system currently available set up to be a Players-Versus-GM environment. It's not what I like, but it's what the situation is.

In pick-up games, like you said, CASE+XL combos are just an extra half ton of wasted space. Meaningless. A Dead mech is a dead mech.

In games where salvage is a thing, if you lose the CT of a mech to damage from an ammo explosion, not only can you no longer repair the mech with a destroyed CT, but the mech goes from "Destroyed" status to "Completely destroyed" status, meaning literally nothing can be salvaged. The mech has torn itself apart from the inside out. XL in the side torso in tabletop campaigns means that the likely very expensive mech is out of the fight, but after some time in a maintenance facility and some technical TLC, you might be able to get it back up and running again. Even the 3-crits of engine damage is able to be repaired, and being the most expensive component in any mech, that's a good thing.

So yeah, it depends how you play. the same thing can be said about ECM when the other guy isn't using Artemis or C3 Networks. Or TAG when you have no homing artillery or Semi-guided LRM rounds... or Beagle Active Probe in any game that doesn't use hidden units rules.

Edited by ice trey, 30 July 2016 - 09:30 PM.

[process]

TIL CASE behaves differently if you're standing still.

[Lucian Nostra]

ice trey, on 30 July 2016 - 09:28 PM, said:

You're right on the single individual mission level. I usually play that way, too. However, it's painfully obvious that the staff behind Battletech expect you to run it like a sort of RPG, with every campaign system currently available set up to be a Players-Versus-GM environment. It's not what I like, but it's what the situation is.

In pick-up games, like you said, CASE+XL combos are just an extra half ton of wasted space. Meaningless. A Dead mech is a dead mech.

In games where salvage is a thing, if you lose the CT of a mech to damage from an ammo explosion, not only can you no longer repair the mech with a destroyed CT, but the mech goes from "Destroyed" status to "Completely destroyed" status, meaning literally nothing can be salvaged. The mech has torn itself apart from the inside out. XL in the side torso in tabletop campaigns means that the likely very expensive mech is out of the fight, but after some time in a maintenance facility and some technical TLC, you might be able to get it back up and running again. Even the 3-crits of engine damage is able to be repaired, and being the most expensive component in any mech, that's a good thing.

So yeah, it depends how you play. the same thing can be said about ECM when the other guy isn't using Artemis or C3 Networks. Or TAG when you have no homing artillery or Semi-guided LRM rounds... or Beagle Active Probe in any game that doesn't use hidden units rules.

exactly CASE + XL is a campaign friendly mech and a real life saver. Ran a campaign not that long ago and CASE saved our lone heavy mech from the scrap heap 3 times. When you start looking at prices of mechs with XL engines you start seeing if they run case lotta designs can double in price because of those engines, it's a good idea to try and protect them

[Mole]

Drunken Skull, on 30 July 2016 - 09:21 PM, said:

Standing still and letting someone "have at you" at will till you explode is hardly an equitable test. Nice try though guys.

You do realize that machine guns have a crazy high crit chance, right? It literally only took one second of him shooting my fresh internals with his machine gun to trigger an ammo explosion and then I instantly went up like a powder keg. The damage that I took from his machine guns was negligible. What destroyed me was the ammo explosion that happened and killed me regardless of there being a CASE in that torso.

[UnofficialOperator]

Drunken Skull, on 30 July 2016 - 09:21 PM, said:

Standing still and letting someone "have at you" at will till you explode is hardly an equitable test. Nice try though guys.

Now you just be trolling.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Drunken Skull, on 30 July 2016 - 07:12 PM, said:

t's there because it protects the XL. PGI have "re-imagined it" and here is the proof. Tell me it dont work till your black and blue in the face but I have PROOF.

1. Without it I die allot, with it I am last man standing in a match despite having cored torso's and ammo explosions.
2. It is used in STOCK mechs THE SAME WAY.

The "I don't know why it's there, it must be a mistake" is the poorest rebuttal I have heard yet.

You're the unluckiest SOB in mwo then. I've played since closed beta and died to an ammo explosion exactly twice and I've never used CASE.

[Mole]

I really hope this guy is trolling. Because if he's not, this kind of stupid is just inexcusable.

[Drunken Skull]

Drunken Skull, on 30 July 2016 - 09:21 PM, said:

Standing still and letting someone "have at you" at will till you explode is hardly an equitable test. Nice try though guys.

@Mischief;
Nicely said, and to a point you may be right but who knows for sure. It may even be an issue with the Archers Hitboxes that I'm mistakenly identifying even. But, there is also the matter of the Stock Archer 5W that also sports this design...

I know when C.A.S.E has saved my a## (piloting an Archer Tempest) when betty goes into critical mode and says "Ammunition Explosion Detected"... Quite often the Ammo level only drops by 1 tonne (which usually indicates to me that only a single weapon managed to breach the armour, as there was only 1 crit roll). At this stage the paper-doll will indicate one of the side torso's has had either the front or rear armour completely stripped down to the core which will be showing as either in the yellow or red. Usually this occurs with a rear side torso breach performed by a flanking light mech carrying a big gun.

Could it be that maybe there is a portion of a tonne of ammunition in a slot and it does "explode", yet doesn't have the curry in it to set off a chain reaction in the rest of the Ammo store? Another possibility that I won't rule out.

Also, I think there is great merit the possibility that as stated by Tarogato, there is simply the advantage gained by the crit padding involved by the mere presence of the C.A.S.E.

Perhaps we are both right in our arguments, Directly the C.A.S.E may not even play a role in the preservation of the XL, but indirectly by being there it reduces the statistical chance of there being an explosion?

Sorry I was still editing my post....

I think Taragato's theory along with MischiefMC's theory explains why I am experiencing less ammo-related deaths with C.A.S.E installed. To test this theory I should be able to equip as Taragato has suggested, two 1/2 tonne lots of Gauss Ammo in lieu of the C.A.S.E, and experience similar results.

While effective at helping me survive I will concede that maybe the C.A.S.E is no more not even as effective than as an extra 1/2 Tonne of Gauss ammo padding a crit slot. I have learnt something here, and that is the importance of padding critical slots and the role it plays in statistically improving chances of survival.

Thankyou everyone for their valuable input.

Thankyou also to the guys who took the time to go in-game and put my theory to the test, they should make you Honorary "Myth Busters". Myth Busted!

If you're still testing things can you maybe test to see whether padding the critical slots with inert objects improves survivability opposed to leaving the slots empty?

Edited by Drunken Skull, 31 July 2016 - 03:31 AM.

[Deathlike]

Ammo/crit padding is a thing as it is very recommended if you need to put ammo in non-optimal spaces.

Due to ammo usage flow, you can get away with 1 ton in the torsos as long as you are quick to use them up aggressively.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 July 2016 - 11:06 PM.

[Lykaon]

Drunken Skull, on 30 July 2016 - 06:52 PM, said:

OK, recently I poste my Archer Tempest Build. In it I have used C.A.S.E in the left and right torso's to protect the XL from Ammo Explosion. I found this works great and Improves the survivability of the mech substantially. Despite my testimony I have been "Trolled" with "friendly advice" that my build sucks and the C.A.S.E does nothing to help my mech.

Good try guys, I almost bought into your BS...

If case does nothing for the XL engine then WHY is it STANDARD KIT on the STOCK ARCHER ARC-5W ??!!

The C.A.S.E works. End of story.

Here is where you may have been confused.

First the stock builds are taken from the table top game where CASE will not save the mech's XL engine when an ammo crit cooks off but it will save the mech as a whole by not allowing the damage transfer to the CT. So the stock Archer W uses CASE in the table top rules set.

Next.

Under what circumstances does the CASE in MWO protect an XL engine? If the ammo cooks off the side torso is destroyed as well and as it is coded side torso destruction "kills" an Inner Sphere mech with an XL engine.

The check sum is side torso destroyed = mech destroyed if inner sphere XL is present. it's that basic.

The procedure for ammo crits is as follows.

Hit to location containing ammo that has also experienced an armor breach.

Step one: excess damage over armor value is applied to internal components.

Step two: Determine recipient of excess damage. Random target chosen from available targets in the body segment including internal structure values and any components contained.

Step three: When an ammo crit is selected as damage recipient apply damage to ammo crit slot's hitpoint value of 10.

Step four: if ammo crit hitpoint value of ten is exceeded check for ammo detonation. 10% chance of detonation.If the roll to detonate is failed send ammo destruction notification. IMPORTANT NOTE: bitching Betty ammo destruction notification IS NOT the same as an ammo detonation! You can get the AMMO DESTROYED notification and NOT have an ammo explosion.

Step five: If ammo explosion occurs apply the remaining value of the ammo's damage output to the internal structure of the body section containing the ammo with excess damage transfering inward towards the mech's center torso. So if a right arm has 20 rounds of AC10 ammo that is detonated apply 200 damage to the right arm internals until exceeded then apply remaining damage to the right side torso (with a 50% transfered damage reduction MWO uses) If the right torso is depleted continue damage transfer to center torso (with an additional 50% reduction for transfered damage)

Step five A: IF CASE is present in the body location NO DAMAGE transfers outside the body segments containing CASE. Of interest,if CASE is present in a location that damage transfers through but is not the origin of the ammo explosion the CASE STILL contains the damage. So if the RA ammo detonated and the RT had CASE the CT would be protected by the CASE (this is a quirk of the MWO coding and it should not work with the table top rules but does work here)

The ONLY time CASE may appear to have worked is if the remaining ammo damage value was not suffiecent to destroy the side torso. In this occurance the CASE still did nothing it's just that the ammo did not cause enough damage to destroy the side torso.

Your confusion may be from not knowing that the verbal notification of "ammo destroyed" is not the same as "ammo explosion"


How to test yourself.

Get a friend to launch into a private match.

Your firing mech should be equiped with an inner sphere ER-PPC (does 10 damage to one targeted location)

Your target mech should be an Atlas equiped with an XL engine,Side torso CASE and every other side torso crit slot filled with AC10 ammo. DO NOT equip armor.

Have your firing mech specifcly target the Atlas side torsos and await an ammo DETONATION. not an ammo destruction.

Ammo can be destroyed WITHOUT detonation and actually does 90% of the time (only a 10% chance of ammo detonation when the ammo's 10 health is depleted)

Also remember the ONLY way for an Inner Sphere XL engine to be destroyed in a side torso is the depletion of ALL side torso internal structure. ENGINES DO NOT TAKE CRITS in MWo.

You may need to repeat the test due to the low frequency of actual ammo detonations (10% chance).


Please try this and you will see you are NOT being Trolled.

[Lykaon]

Sorbic, on 30 July 2016 - 09:19 PM, said:

I'm sure it's almost completely confirmation bias but can IS CASE be hit like other components? I mean is there a chance that on RARE occasions the CASE takes incoming damage that might have otherwise popped ammo?

To my knowledge CASE is not a viable component for taking damage. Like actuators,gyro and engine slots are coded.

What does take damage is any weapon,ammo heatsink or support electronics placed in a location.

I am actually unsure about MASK I don't have any MASK equiped mechs that I use with enough frequency to have tested it.

[meteorol]

Chance of ammo exploding is so comically low it doesn't really matter if you are using a case or not anyway. It's pretty much wasted weight.

That aside, you are wrong. Sorry. What everyone else said.

[Drunken Skull]

Drunken Skull, on 30 July 2016 - 06:52 PM, said:

OK, recently I poste my Archer Tempest Build. In it I have used C.A.S.E in the left and right torso's to protect the XL from Ammo Explosion. I found this works great and Improves the survivability of the mech substantially. Despite my testimony I have been "Trolled" with "friendly advice" that my build sucks and the C.A.S.E does nothing to help my mech.

Good try guys, I almost bought into your BS...

If case does nothing for the XL engine then WHY is it STANDARD KIT on the STOCK ARCHER ARC-5W ??!!

The C.A.S.E works. End of story.

EDIT: MYTH BUSTED!
The importance of Critical Slot padding is the answer to the increased survival rate here, C.A.S.E DOES NOT directly prevent the XL from being destroyed.

Thanks to everyone who helped me grasp the situation I found myself in.

Drunken Skull, on 30 July 2016 - 10:10 PM, said:

Sorry I was still editing my post....

I think Taragato's theory along with MischiefMC's theory explains why I am experiencing less ammo-related deaths with C.A.S.E installed. To test this theory I should be able to equip as Taragato has suggested, two 1/2 tonne lots of Gauss Ammo in lieu of the C.A.S.E, and experience similar results.

While effective at helping me survive I will concede that maybe the C.A.S.E is no more effective than an extra 1/2 Tonne of Gauss ammo padding a crit slot. I have learnt something here, and that is the importance of padding critical slots and the role it plays in statistically improving chances of survival.

Thankyou everyone for their valuable input.

Thankyou also to the guys who took the time to go in-game and put my theory to the test, they should make you Honorary "Myth Busters". Myth Busted!

If you're still testing things can you maybe test to see whether padding the critical slots with inert objects improves survivability opposed to leaving the slots empty?

[Drunken Skull]

Lykaon, on 30 July 2016 - 11:15 PM, said:

To my knowledge CASE is not a viable component for taking damage. Like actuators,gyro and engine slots are coded.

What does take damage is any weapon,ammo heatsink or support electronics placed in a location.

I am actually unsure about MASK I don't have any MASK equiped mechs that I use with enough frequency to have tested it.

What happens when a component not coded to take damage is rolled in a critical hit? Does it absorb it, get destroyed, force a re-roll, pass the damage to the next component?