211 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

I was playing with a 6LL Stalker right now. That stalker is pushing ~13 dps, and can hold it up for a good chunk of time.

And the Dakka Mauler (5 AC5 or 3 AC5/2 UAC5) can push almost the exact same DPS, except it doesn't need to find cover to cool off because it is already a cool running build. There is a reason the Stalker stopped being used after the rebalance when the Dakka Mauler started its rise, and it already fired 3 LL in volley fire.

At this point the question is was the AC5 cooldown nerf enough to nerf dakka boats vs laser boats, and I assure you it isn't. Why are we trying to force lasers to be something they aren't?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 August 2016 - 04:23 PM.

[Navid A1]

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

I'm loving though how people are both saying ballistics are going to dominate and ballistics are totally broken in the couple posts just above this one, though.

They are not saying it is broken... they are saying if you are bringing ACs... you better boat them... otherwise... stick with lasers.

Navid A1, on 24 August 2016 - 03:59 PM, said:

That is exactly what I'm saying.
The responses are that mixing UACs and lasers could "work".
I say why would one bother to bring both when stacking up one works far better?


What is stopping me from bringing a Mauler-2P with 6xLPLs and mopping the floor with the enemies in a match? (you have to try this one.. its an eye opener)

Who in their right mind will bring ACs and lasers when they can bring 5x AC5s and spam the enemy to death?

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 03:15 PM, said:

The uac10 thing is a target of ED, yeah.

However, even on pts, I found a single uac10 remains a great weapon, and two is excellent in the case of mechs just mounting the two. If you want other weapons too then you'll need lbx10's or something else.

A single 10 and 5-6 ERSL certainly works though.

Honestly Winter, I must insist that 1x UAC/10, 6x cERSL got penalized a little too hard. I can't even alpha twice without overheating. I feel that the weapons are de-sync'd enough that I should get almost, but not quite, three 50 pt alphas in a row without overheating,

If I'm already only going to get one alpha without overheat, then I might as well go with 4 cERML lasers instead of the UAC and then stack heatsinks. 2 UAC/10s may still very well be viable, and I think it's great LBXs are becoming more viable! But still UACs were penalized too hard in any combonation that exceeds 30 damage. I ran the UAC/10 because it was high burst for negligible heat.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 24 August 2016 - 04:29 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 August 2016 - 04:20 PM, said:

And the Dakka Mauler (5 AC5 or 3 AC5/2 UAC5) can push almost the exact same DPS, except it doesn't need to find cover to cool off because it is already a cool running build. There is a reason the Stalker stopped being used after the rebalance when the Dakka Mauler started its rise, and it already fired 3 LL in volley fire.

At this point the question is was the AC5 cooldown nerf enough to nerf dakka boats vs laser boats, and I assure you it isn't. Why are we trying to force lasers to be something they aren't?

We're not?

I can't speak for your experiences, but on the face of it, lasers are pushing comparable DPS but not as long, except with much greater accuracy, particularly vs. faster foes. If you're a good shot and can accurately lead bobbing and weaving lights, that's fine, but for the bulk of the playerbase you're going to see a lot of people still rocking lasers because hitscan.

I clearly remember a time - and it was a VERY long time, basically from December 2012 right up till the Clan release - where lasers where the "Meh" weapons. They weren't very common at competitive play, but where used extensively by newer players, where they still did good damage, though the DOT aspect of them put them behind srms or autocannons. That wasn't a bad mix.

No matter what, at the very top, people are going to crowd to one scheme or the other. However, unlike the LRM issue (where at low level play LRM's are OP, and at higher end play they're junky) they're pretty usable everywhere, even if you're right and they're not quite as good. At normal play, though, they're just fine, able to deal good DPS at lower tonnage with better accuracy.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 24 August 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

I ran the UAC/10 because it was high burst for negligible heat.

That's why it was hit by the system. It's a LOT of burst for little heat. Unnerf it, and you find 2xUAC10+stuff being more practical.

Note that the UAC10 was not directly modified at all; that's purely an artifact of total burst amount, and that's what the system is designed to curtail. It's got the same stats and a flat 1:1 draw.

Edited by Wintersdark, 24 August 2016 - 04:32 PM.

[Navid A1]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 24 August 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

Honestly Winter, I must insist that 1x UAC/10, 6x cERSL got penalized a little too hard. I can't even alpha twice without overheating. I feel that the weapons are de-sync'd enough that up to three 50 pt alphas in a row should be possible without overheating,

If I'm already only going to get one alpha without overheat, then I might as well go with 4 cERML lasers instead of the UAC and then stack heatsinks. 2 UAC/10s may still very well be viable, and I think it's great LBXs are becoming more viable! But still UACs were penalized too hard in any combonation that exceeds 30 damage. I ran the UAC/10 because it was high burst for negligible heat.

The entire idea of energy draw was F*ing up auto cannons (solely because of the Kodiak-3 with its inflated torso hardpoints)... did you expect anything else?
limiting alpha is a gimmick.
UACs and lasers were never "alpha" weapons.

Just grab a mauler-2p. Put 6 LPLs in it and go wreck people non-stop!

Edited by Navid A1, 24 August 2016 - 04:33 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 24 August 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

Honestly Winter, I must insist that 1x UAC/10, 6x cERSL got penalized a little too hard. I can't even alpha twice without overheating. I feel that the weapons are de-sync'd enough that I should get almost, but not quite, three 50 pt alphas in a row without overheating,

If I'm already only going to get one alpha without overheat, then I might as well go with 4 cERML lasers instead of the UAC and then stack heatsinks. 2 UAC/10s may still very well be viable, and I think it's great LBXs are becoming more viable! But still UACs were penalized too hard in any combonation that exceeds 30 damage. I ran the UAC/10 because it was high burst for negligible heat.

Well, indeed. The 6ERSL+UAC10 is all about a 50pt pinpoint burst. At ERSL ranges, it's very probably all going to hit what you want too. It's not front loaded, but it's still a 50pt pinpoint burst.

That's specifically what the system is aiming to curtail.

[Wintersdark]

I'm still stumbling on this.

AC's and Lasers do comparable DPS. AC's can fire longer while after a while lasers need to cool, but lasers come in with much less logistic requirements and have easier aiming, and can burn/cover/burn while AC's need facetime (you're only firing at one target, but you're exposed).

I'm not seeing the above as a problem.

I have no trouble mixing them, though I'll agree that at massive assault scales, it's easier to just boat one or the other if that's an option. At medium/heavy levels, it's fine to mix them.

But when the only thing stopping these builds live anyways is artificial ghost heat limits, which aren't even a thing for AC2 or AC5 builds, and have exactly the same impact on most laser builds? That's no different on live. You can run 5 AC5 just fine on live or on the PTS, but on the PTS it's much lower DPS.

You can run 6LPL fine on live or the PTS. You can run 6LL just fine on either.

If it's not a problem on live, why is it a problem on the PTS, where you're firing the same groups anyways?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:

No matter what, at the very top, people are going to crowd to one scheme or the other.

Except they really don't currently, you still have ERLL for extreme range, dakka pushes, Gauss/PPC poke, and SRMs for brawling, it just depends on the map and average tonnage on whether which one is viable.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 04:47 PM, said:

You can run 6LPL fine on live or the PTS. You can run 6LL just fine on either.

If it's not a problem on live, why is it a problem on the PTS, where you're firing the same groups anyways?

6 LL has actually been dead compared to dakka for a long time, 5 ERLL Battlemasters are a different story because they play extreme range better than dakka can and because they can shoot 5 ERLL within around 2 seconds as opposed to 3.

The fact you have to wait 1.5 seconds as opposed to 0.5 seconds is what is very different, which is generally long enough that allows the AC5 to match your volley as opposed to out-poking them due to lower exposure times allowing you to get your volley off before they can hit you with their second volley.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:

We're not?

I can't speak for your experiences, but on the face of it, lasers are pushing comparable DPS but not as long, except with much greater accuracy, particularly vs. faster foes. If you're a good shot and can accurately lead bobbing and weaving lights, that's fine, but for the bulk of the playerbase you're going to see a lot of people still rocking lasers because hitscan.

I clearly remember a time - and it was a VERY long time, basically from December 2012 right up till the Clan release - where lasers where the "Meh" weapons. They weren't very common at competitive play, but where used extensively by newer players, where they still did good damage, though the DOT aspect of them put them behind srms or autocannons. That wasn't a bad mix.

No matter what, at the very top, people are going to crowd to one scheme or the other. However, unlike the LRM issue (where at low level play LRM's are OP, and at higher end play they're junky) they're pretty usable everywhere, even if you're right and they're not quite as good. At normal play, though, they're just fine, able to deal good DPS at lower tonnage with better accuracy.


That's why it was hit by the system. It's a LOT of burst for little heat. Unnerf it, and you find 2xUAC10+stuff being more practical.

Note that the UAC10 was not directly modified at all; that's purely an artifact of total burst amount, and that's what the system is designed to curtail. It's got the same stats and a flat 1:1 draw.

*shrugs* I mean I get it, some builds have to kick the bucket for ED to work. That's just one of them. I would never run Ultra Auto-canons with lasers on PTS. It's penalized too heavily compared to laser vomit. I would submit that it's definately more efficient to run 4 mediums, seeing as how cool you can run the 6x cERSL barrage with 8 more DHS.

I'm sure my own preferences as a mech builder factor in - I don't play mechs whose alpha strikes aren't tactically useful - but as someone with a LOT of expeirence with the build, I can say that it used to be great and now it's mediocre at best.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 24 August 2016 - 05:09 PM.

[Navid A1]

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 04:47 PM, said:

I'm still stumbling on this.

AC's and Lasers do comparable DPS. AC's can fire longer while after a while lasers need to cool, but lasers come in with much less logistic requirements and have easier aiming, and can burn/cover/burn while AC's need facetime (you're only firing at one target, but you're exposed).

I'm not seeing the above as a problem.

I have no trouble mixing them, though I'll agree that at massive assault scales, it's easier to just boat one or the other if that's an option. At medium/heavy levels, it's fine to mix them.

But when the only thing stopping these builds live anyways is artificial ghost heat limits, which aren't even a thing for AC2 or AC5 builds, and have exactly the same impact on most laser builds? That's no different on live. You can run 5 AC5 just fine on live or on the PTS, but on the PTS it's much lower DPS.

You can run 6LPL fine on live or the PTS. You can run 6LL just fine on either.

If it's not a problem on live, why is it a problem on the PTS, where you're firing the same groups anyways?

On live I run this mauler:
MAL-1R
that works wonderfully.

It is completely destroyed in this PTS.
And I don't even alpha!
I shoot AC10s... followed by Lasers and an LRM volley normally within 100-400m

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 04:47 PM, said:

I'm still stumbling on this.

AC's and Lasers do comparable DPS. AC's can fire longer while after a while lasers need to cool, but lasers come in with much less logistic requirements and have easier aiming, and can burn/cover/burn while AC's need facetime (you're only firing at one target, but you're exposed).

I'm not seeing the above as a problem.

I have no trouble mixing them, though I'll agree that at massive assault scales, it's easier to just boat one or the other if that's an option. At medium/heavy levels, it's fine to mix them.

But when the only thing stopping these builds live anyways is artificial ghost heat limits, which aren't even a thing for AC2 or AC5 builds, and have exactly the same impact on most laser builds? That's no different on live. You can run 5 AC5 just fine on live or on the PTS, but on the PTS it's much lower DPS.

You can run 6LPL fine on live or the PTS. You can run 6LL just fine on either.

If it's not a problem on live, why is it a problem on the PTS, where you're firing the same groups anyways?

Well one thing to consider. On mech like the Nova, you can run 23 DHS on a laser vomit mech (6x cERSL, 4x cERML). That allows your hex small laser barrage to do more sustained damage than your UAC/10 was doing on the build that incoorperated it.

I took the Ultra 10 previously because I could blow repeated 50 damage holes into slow mechs. It was worth the de-sync'd weapons and the lower sustain. Now it's simply not worth it, for better or worse. If I can only alpha once anyway I'd rather take the meds, increase my cooling, and make my smalls nearly heat neutral.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 24 August 2016 - 05:08 PM.

[Chados]

Testing on Caustic Valley and Tourmaline in the testing grounds.

I've tried my ALRM15x2/SSRM2x4 A1 Catapult, and it gets hot when shooting everything in SRM range. But it is manageable. The Archer 5W packing 5 SSRM2 and 4 Artemis LRM5 is interesting, the LRMS can shoot til the mech runs out of ammo if you're alternating two and two at a time. But bring in the SSRMs, and it gets hot quick.

The stock Jester, STD 295, 2xLL, 2xML, 2xSL, works great because of all the double heat sinks-it has seven in the torsos and one arm alone.

AC10 Riflemen will crank up the heat if they try to run two ML at the same time as the two AC10s. But they can one-two the AC10s until they run dry, and I carry 70 rounds over a STD 240.

Oddly, the superstock Phoenix Hawk 1 builds heat super fast. Two ML, one LL, 3 MG and a 1.5 heat rating, but it hits the ceiling fast with everything shooting. Even if it's alternating LL/ML it gets hot quick.

The Shadowhawk 2K, carrying one PPC, 2 ML, 2 ALRM5, also can shoot all day long, and can mix all its weapons.

[Wintersdark]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 August 2016 - 04:55 PM, said:

Except they really don't currently, you still have ERLL for extreme range, dakka pushes, Gauss/PPC poke, and SRMs for brawling, it just depends on the map and average tonnage on whether which one is viable.

And right now, you have....

ERLL for extreme range, dakka pushes, [Assuming PPC's get fixed] Gauss/PPC poke (at least, single gauss+ppc - see medium poptarts for cutting in on dakka builds), and SRM/LBX for brawling.


and outside your world, the vast majority of MWO players also have very accurate, easy to use lasers that can still do the same DPS without ammo concerns.

Edited by Wintersdark, 24 August 2016 - 05:27 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 24 August 2016 - 05:05 PM, said:

Well one thing to consider. On mech like the Nova, you can run 23 DHS on a laser vomit mech (6x cERSL, 4x cERML). That allows your hex small laser barrage to do more sustained damage than your UAC/10 was doing on the build that incoorperated it.

I took the Ultra 10 previously because I could blow repeated 50 damage holes into slow mechs. It was worth the de-sync'd weapons and the lower sustain. Now it's simply not worth it, for better or worse. If I can only alpha once anyway I'd rather take the meds, increase my cooling, and make my smalls nearly heat neutral.

Yeah, I'm with you there.

But I'd argue that in regular play - read, pug play, which is where the vast majority of MWO play happens - the ERSL UAC10 Nova can also put out respectable ranged damage, and isn't SOL at longer ranges. The ERML's are decent at mid range, but the UAC10 pushes further, both in optimal range, and in terms of full max range.


With that said, I'd probably boat lasers on a Nova either way, and probably add SRM's if I wanted to mix it up, just because the Nova's upgrade configuration makes heavy ballistics awkward. I've never felt good about UAC10's on a Nova, but that's just me.

[Wintersdark]

Navid A1, on 24 August 2016 - 05:04 PM, said:

On live I run this mauler:
MAL-1R
that works wonderfully.

It is completely destroyed in this PTS.
And I don't even alpha!
I shoot AC10s... followed by Lasers and an LRM volley normally within 100-400m

... I don't understand why it's "completely destroyed".

The AC10's push 20 damage for 20 energy. 0.5s later, you have 20 energy remaining. Two LL's burn for, what, roughly a second? They cost 18E (now you're at 28E), fire the two LRM10's after - not a single bleep. This doesn't require precision, though, you can fire 10's, wait ~roughly~ half a second, fire, then fire the LRM's after the burn. If you fire the LL's less than half a second after the AC10, you've got some breathing room, and even if you tough the ED limits a little bit the added heat is minimal.


This is very similar to a lot of the builds I've listed that worked just fine for me.

Alternatively, you can run LBX's instead of pure AC's, take 2 more tons of ammo, and be able to alpha the lasers and LBX's together for roughly the same heat as alpha striking the AC10's and LL's without ED penalties.

Hence where choices come in. LBX's aren't flatly better, as you'd be giving up pinpoint damage, but on the other hand it's easier to mix LBX's with lasers, and reduce face time.

Edited by Wintersdark, 24 August 2016 - 05:37 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

(at least, single gauss+ppc - see medium poptarts for cutting in on dakka builds)

You will only see this on mediums, that's it. Nothing else will use PPCs or Gauss, and even then the question is whether it will be worth it or not because the main reason they are useful is because they win the poke game against ERPPC/Gauss Kodiaks, they don't have the DPS to sustain an engagement against full push/rush teams.

Even if they lower the cooldown on PPCs back down, they still won't be viable on anything but mediums. If the kept the cooldown nerf but lower the PPCs energy draw back down to 1:1 it would be better.

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

ERLL for extreme range

I doubt this will be the case, having to split fire by a full second means that is another volley a dakka boat can land on you.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 August 2016 - 05:38 PM.

[Nightmare1]

I just hope PGI gets its act together. I think ACs have been nerfed a bit too hard in this latest go-around, and I'm not convinced that ED is moving in the right direction. I know that there's already some murmuring in my Unit from some of our better and more active pilots to the effect that they will leave the game if ED is implemented as is. To be frank, I'm waffling myself.

[Navid A1]

Nightmare1, on 24 August 2016 - 05:37 PM, said:

I just hope PGI gets its act together. I think ACs have been nerfed a bit too hard in this latest go-around, and I'm not convinced that ED is moving in the right direction. I know that there's already some murmuring in my Unit from some of our better and more active pilots to the effect that they will leave the game if ED is implemented as is. To be frank, I'm waffling myself.

I'm hearing that as well... and from really top players.

Actually, just looking at the PTS update page gives me a headache... after ED, I really need a very good reason to play.
I'm already thinking about cancelling my pre-orders.
That frustrating championship with close to no tournament management is no better either.

[Navid A1]

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 05:33 PM, said:

... I don't understand why it's "completely destroyed".

The AC10's push 20 damage for 20 energy. 0.5s later, you have 20 energy remaining. Two LL's burn for, what, roughly a second? They cost 18E (now you're at 28E), fire the two LRM10's after - not a single bleep. This doesn't require precision, though, you can fire 10's, wait ~roughly~ half a second, fire, then fire the LRM's after the burn. If you fire the LL's less than half a second after the AC10, you've got some breathing room, and even if you tough the ED limits a little bit the added heat is minimal.


This is very similar to a lot of the builds I've listed that worked just fine for me.

Alternatively, you can run LBX's instead of pure AC's, take 2 more tons of ammo, and be able to alpha the lasers and LBX's together for roughly the same heat as alpha striking the AC10's and LL's without ED penalties.

Hence where choices come in. LBX's aren't flatly better, as you'd be giving up pinpoint damage, but on the other hand it's easier to mix LBX's with lasers, and reduce face time.

Oh, it wrecks face in PTS.
But 4v4 PTS performance is irrelevant.

Based on what I've tested... It will be garbage in a real 12v12 match with active matchmaking.


Also regarding LBX... Sorry. LBX is the worst.
Yet thanks to you, Russ thinks that LBX is magically fixed somehow. Even though absolutely nothing has changed... Only other ballistics now penalize you for using them.