247 replies to this topic

[Mister Popo]

Vxheous what you said maybe true, but that doesn't mean those players need to keep playing both sides regularly. We know most of the competitive teams and commanders stay clan. Why is that? They must have cool paintjobs is all.

[Vxheous]

Mister Popo, on 18 September 2016 - 09:51 PM, said:

Vxheous what you said maybe true, but that doesn't mean those players need to keep playing both sides regularly. We know most of the competitive teams and commanders stay clan. Why is that? They must have cool paintjobs is all.

Faction Warfare isn't "competitive" by any stretch of the imagination.

[RestosIII]

Mister Popo, on 18 September 2016 - 09:51 PM, said:

Vxheous what you said maybe true, but that doesn't mean those players need to keep playing both sides regularly. We know most of the competitive teams and commanders stay clan. Why is that? They must have cool paintjobs is all.

Or they like the faction/mechs aesthetically. Or they dislike the penalties for switching. Or they are Clan currently because of events. Or they prefer the longer-range playstyle over the closer range setups of IS mechs. Or literally anything besides "We like being overpowered, because obviously we're overpowered and we've agreed to make sure to pretend we aren't overpowered".

Blech, It's 2 AM. I'm going to sum up this thread before I turn off my comp.

[Sjorpha]

It's definitely true that clan has a significant advantage over IS in Faction Play after the rescale, kodiak release and nerfing IS quirks, it was better balanced earlier this year.

They should probably restore some of the quirks they nerfed and give some to all the lights that got bad through rescale. IS PPCs could also get a ghost heat limit of 3 like their large lasers.

As far as why units pool up in clan or IS, there is probably a lot of randomness to that. We don't communicate with other units about where to go and some unit's are so large that if they randomly choose the same side it becomes slanted right away. There are probably people choosing sides based on balancing but i don't think it's very many, the clan advantage is significant but IMO not significant enough to control the faction choice of good players.

Edited by Sjorpha, 18 September 2016 - 10:06 PM.

[Mister Popo]

Restosell why literally everything besides? Apparently wanting to be on the winning side can't possibly be a factor in a players faction of choice. No one would ever do that!

[Trollfeed]

RestosIII, on 18 September 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

IS Autocannons are much better for pinpoint damage. IS PPCs have better heat. IS LRMs don't have to deal with AMS ruining them as much due to their clumping. IS LL don't have the INSANELY long burn time of C-ERLLas, so I'd go for them if I had the option. Now please tell me I'm ignoring some facts here so that I can "keep my Clan advantage".

Excuse me, clan equivalent for large laser isn't CERLL, but CERML. IS LL and CERML has pretty much identical stats, 3xLL is equivalent of 4xCERML and 4xLL is equivalent of 5xCERML. It's just you know, CERML weights 1 ton and LL weights 5 tons. This is the reason that almost every ******* build for clan includes array of CERML, they're just so good for their weight.

There was some mentions that clan weapons are "slightly" lighter than IS ones. Clan autocannons weight 2 tons less in addition being ultra versions, gauss weights 3 tons less, ppcs and bigger lasers 1 tons less, but my favourite is that 5xCERML array that weights 15 tons less than IS equivalent. Add in some "slight" weight savings from clan xl engines and we have some hard balancing to do.

At the moment game is somewhat balanced due to insane quirks for IS and locked equipment for omnimechs, which are now useless for balancing because of introduction of clan battlemechs with optimal hardpoints. Quick play is balanced by both sides having clan mechs and faction play is balanced by ****** funnel maps which force knifefighting. I have noticed that very few clan pilots equip their mech for close range so IS can somewhat fight back with their standard engines and close range weaponry.

[RestosIII]

Mister Popo, on 18 September 2016 - 10:04 PM, said:

Restosell why literally everything besides? Apparently wanting to be on the winning side can't possibly be a factor in a players faction of choice. No one would ever do that!

Okay, first of all, unrelated, but why is it that so many people I have to argue with don't understand there is a quote function? I'd like to respond in most cases, but unless you quote me, the only way I'll know is manually scouring every thread. Quote whoever you're talking to. Please.

Anyways, no, I do not believe most of the units are on Clan because they're OP. The people remaining that play this game are mostly BT nuts like myself, or relatively newer players that aren't running major units. In general, from my experience, people run what they enjoy, no matter it's strength. The Urbanmech exists, for one, and people pilot it. (If we want examples of Clan vs IS having options, Clans don't have a mech with 360 torso twist. PGI please nerf)

So no, it isn't a massive Clanner plot to stay in power, and if you truly believe it is, you're delusional.

[RestosIII]

Trollfeed, on 18 September 2016 - 10:14 PM, said:

Excuse me, clan equivalent for large laser isn't CERLL, but CERML. IS LL and CERML has pretty much identical stats, 3xLL is equivalent of 4xCERML and 4xLL is equivalent of 5xCERML. It's just you know, CERML weights 1 ton and LL weights 5 tons. This is the reason that almost every ******* build for clan includes array of CERML, they're just so good for their weight.

There was some mentions that clan weapons are "slightly" lighter than IS ones. Clan autocannons weight 2 tons less in addition being ultra versions, gauss weights 3 tons less, ppcs and bigger lasers 1 tons less, but my favourite is that 5xCERML array that weights 15 tons less than IS equivalent. Add in some "slight" weight savings from clan xl engines and we have some hard balancing to do.

At the moment game is somewhat balanced due to insane quirks for IS and locked equipment for omnimechs, which are now useless for balancing because of introduction of clan battlemechs with optimal hardpoints. Quick play is balanced by both sides having clan mechs and faction play is balanced by ****** funnel maps which force knifefighting. I have noticed that very few clan pilots equip their mech for close range so IS can somewhat fight back with their standard engines and close range weaponry.

The reason most Clan mechs don't run CQC weaponry is because they're horrible at it. The Clan strength is range and poking. You stick a Clan mech into a prolonged fight, and you get this.

[Mister Popo]

Restoslll never said there was a big clanner plot to overthrow the balance. But the question I posed was why everything besides wanting to be on the winning side? There's some Giants fans who aren't Jets fans cause they want to win games. It's human nature to want to win. That doesn't mean I'm trying to say there's this big clanner conspiracy. Go to bed.

[Y E O N N E]

RestosIII, on 18 September 2016 - 10:25 PM, said:

The reason most Clan mechs don't run CQC weaponry is because they're horrible at it. The Clan strength is range and poking. You stick a Clan mech into a prolonged fight, and you get this.

Err, what? That's not true and hasn't been true since, well, forever.

Small-laser nuke Novas and Crows, Splat Crows (not Streak Crows), Splat Jenner IIC, and Brawler TBR have all been choice 'Mechs in competitive games fairly recently (MRBC7). It's just that the Kodiak has kind of put the kibosh on brawling in general because the maps don't allow you to really do it without getting shot to bits before closing.

[Deathlike]

RestosIII, on 18 September 2016 - 10:25 PM, said:

The reason most Clan mechs don't run CQC weaponry is because they're horrible at it. The Clan strength is range and poking. You stick a Clan mech into a prolonged fight, and you get this.

CSRMs still good, last I checked.

[RestosIII]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 September 2016 - 10:31 PM, said:

Err, what? That's not true and hasn't been true since, well, forever.

Small-laser nuke Novas and Crows, Splat Crows (not Streak Crows), Splat Jenner IIC, and Brawler TBR have all been choice 'Mechs in competitive games fairly recently (MRBC7). It's just that the Kodiak has kind of put the kibosh on brawling in general because the maps don't allow you to really do it without getting shot to bits before closing.

Wait wait wait, there are people that don't nuke Novas instantly? Only close range Clan build I've seen work against competent players is Splat Dogs, and those are still taken down easily by brawler mechs on the IS side. I will admit, I don't run Clan brawlers basically, so there may have been some changes I missed recently that made them not deathtraps, and I concede on that point if it is true.

Still, SRM Crows? Brawler Timber Wolves? The last time.e I ran into those they died FAST to Marauders and Warhammers setup for CQC.

Mister Popo, on 18 September 2016 - 10:31 PM, said:

Go to bed.

I told you to quote me dammit. And I am in bed.

Edited by RestosIII, 18 September 2016 - 10:45 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Mister Popo, on 18 September 2016 - 09:23 PM, said:

IS are relegated to defense because we lack the commanders to organize attacks.

This right here is why you're losing. I've noticed a lot of broken up and unguided IS pilots going around who are usually running bad builds, not working together at all, and just dying horrifically. The few that actually work together and bring good builds are absolutely destroying all but the strongest competition.

I mean, I've seen dual AC2 + PPC trebuchets, dual AC5 (not even utlra) Enforcers, small laser (just normal IS small lasers of all things) jenners all on one single scouting lance in one match before, they also split up. I was able to take out the Trebuchet without even losing 10% of my total hp, by just walking up to him and slapping him with some ASRM6s after I ended up blowing the arms off the enforcer (usually would aim for the side torsos, but the guy was good at shield arming if anything... just bad mech for it).

I recommend bringing builds that capitalize on IS tanking and other advantages and avoid weaknesses. You can make good Black Knight brawlers running standard engines for example, and be at a great advantage against Clanners in range. For scouting missions I'd say do the same, Griffins don't need the XL300 deathtrap, they could pack in a standard 275 engine and still have 2 ASRM6 on each side and keep the ECM, then when you go up against some nova pulse laser boat he doesn't kill you after shooting off one side torso, realizes his mistake, then has to go through the other ST or kill you by taking out your CT, either of which he doesn't have the health to survive long enough to do. Other mechs like the Hunchback 4SP and some Crab variants also more commonly capitalize on this.

Basically, just know your advantages, but more importantly play as your enemy, find their weaknesses.

RestosIII, on 18 September 2016 - 10:42 PM, said:

Wait wait wait, there are people that don't nuke Novas instantly? Only close range Clan build I've seen work against competent players is Splat Dogs, and those are still taken down easily by brawler mechs on the IS side. I will admit, I don't run Clan brawlers basically, so there may have been some changes I missed recently that made them not deathtraps, and I concede on that point if it is true.

Still, SRM Crows? Brawler Timber Wolves? The last time.e I ran into those they died FAST to Marauders and Warhammers setup for CQC.

ASRM crows and nuke Novas are a staple of clan scouting drop decks, the Nova rescale made them not so bad. Marauders and Warhammers still are likely able to beat those two, Timber Wolves would be on fair fighting grounds with them given certain builds and proper twisting, though TWs are still very much effected by their hitboxes, easy to hit shoulders with a CT that can't be shielded. If the Warhammer or Marauder is running a standard engine though, its GG close for the Timber Wolf.

Edited by Dakota1000, 18 September 2016 - 10:57 PM.

[Trollfeed]

Optimal situation would have been that we wouldn't have mixed teams in quick play. 3 lances against 2 stars would propably work with unnerfed clan weapons and without insane IS quirks. Now we will have swinging pendulum for balance and I'm not seeing that it will ever change anymore.

[Mcgral18]

Trollfeed, on 18 September 2016 - 11:32 PM, said:

Optimal situation would have been that we wouldn't have mixed teams in quick play. 3 lances against 2 stars would propably work with unnerfed clan weapons and without insane IS quirks. Now we will have swinging pendulum for balance and I'm not seeing that it will ever change anymore.

Wrong


Unnerfed Clam tech 10 VS 12 would result in the Clams ROFLstomping the Spheroid, without much opposition


Too far nerfed, and the Clams couldn't compete against the additional 2 robots

[RestosIII]

Dakota1000, on 18 September 2016 - 10:53 PM, said:

This right here is why you're losing. I've noticed a lot of broken up and unguided IS pilots going around who are usually running bad builds, not working together at all, and just dying horrifically. The few that actually work together and bring good builds are absolutely destroying all but the strongest competition.

I mean, I've seen dual AC2 + PPC trebuchets, dual AC5 (not even utlra) Enforcers, small laser (just normal IS small lasers of all things) jenners all on one single scouting lance in one match before, they also split up. I was able to take out the Trebuchet without even losing 10% of my total hp, by just walking up to him and slapping him with some ASRM6s after I ended up blowing the arms off the enforcer (usually would aim for the side torsos, but the guy was good at shield arming if anything... just bad mech for it).

I recommend bringing builds that capitalize on IS tanking and other advantages and avoid weaknesses. You can make good Black Knight brawlers running standard engines for example, and be at a great advantage against Clanners in range. For scouting missions I'd say do the same, Griffins don't need the XL300 deathtrap, they could pack in a standard 275 engine and still have 2 ASRM6 on each side and keep the ECM, then when you go up against some nova pulse laser boat he doesn't kill you after shooting off one side torso, realizes his mistake, then has to go through the other ST or kill you by taking out your CT, either of which he doesn't have the health to survive long enough to do. Other mechs like the Hunchback 4SP and some Crab variants also more commonly capitalize on this.

Basically, just know your advantages, but more importantly play as your enemy, find their weaknesses.





ASRM crows and nuke Novas are a staple of clan scouting drop decks, the Nova rescale made them not so bad. Marauders and Warhammers still are likely able to beat those two, Timber Wolves would be on fair fighting grounds with them given certain builds and proper twisting, though TWs are still very much effected by their hitboxes, easy to hit shoulders with a CT that can't be shielded. If the Warhammer or Marauder is running a standard engine though, its GG close for the Timber Wolf.

With Novas and Crows I'm used to them getting popped fast by IS ballistics, and it's just weird to imagine them being a major threat. But I'll take your word on it. And I'm personally in the crowd that despises engine use on Warhammers and Marauders. Wasting their ability to tank if you do that, especially on the MAD due to how ST to CT damage reduction works.

[DovisKhan]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 September 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

Griffin 3M/2N and Hunchback 4J murder the crap out of Streak Crows. However, a conventional cSRM-Crow or cSPL+cSRM Crow or even cSPL+cLB-20X Crow will fare much, much better. Even the all-cSPL Crow will put the hurt on.

Locust is better at poking than the Arctic Cheetah, in my opinion. I think the Oxide also beats it for brawling, but the ACH is generally more useful since cSPL are more flexible. Raven is no slouch, either.

Timberwolf is good for 2x cERPPC+Gauss. Otherwise, I'd rather take a Warhammer with 2x UAC/5+2xPPC or a Marauder with a similar payload.

Kodiak is beast-mode. No Assault tops it at the moment, and that's a problem.

The other problem is that IS 'Mechs are entirely dependent upon quirks to match their Clan opponents.

A 12 SPl Nova will murder any Medium mech, heck you can brawl down most heavies with that

10 spl and 2 CERLL Crow is debatably better/worse under some conditions

[DovisKhan]

RestosIII, on 18 September 2016 - 10:42 PM, said:

Wait wait wait, there are people that don't nuke Novas instantly? Only close range Clan build I've seen work against competent players is Splat Dogs, and those are still taken down easily by brawler mechs on the IS side. I will admit, I don't run Clan brawlers basically, so there may have been some changes I missed recently that made them not deathtraps, and I concede on that point if it is true.

Still, SRM Crows? Brawler Timber Wolves? The last time.e I ran into those they died FAST to Marauders and Warhammers setup for CQC.



I told you to quote me dammit. And I am in bed.

You're comparing Clan mehs 25 tons lighter than IS mechs and you say IS mechs will, win, well duh, they should win in brawling conditions, but neither Whammy nor MAD has any chance against a 12 spl crow if there's any cover to maneuver behind

It's a 144 dmg for the crow vs ~50 at best for the Marauder, it's tanky but not 3x more tanky


I face brawled IS assaults in 10 cspl + 2 cerll in many occasions, Crow is absolutely great


Timber is even better, I still go out in my Marauder frequently and it's my most played mech, however even when non elited I had a much, much easier time in the Timberwolf doing the same stuff i do with my MAD, It's just downright better



Lol even Kit Fox is great and it's supposed to be a bad mech, I basicd the mech with pretty much no losses



As someone who transferred from IS to Clan I can safely say it's easy mode for me now, I'm keeping only 3 IS Mechs, King Crab, Marauder and Thunderbolt, they're all great at what they do and they look cool

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

DovisKhan, on 18 September 2016 - 11:56 PM, said:

It's a 144 dmg for the crow vs ~50 at best for the Marauder, it's tanky but not 3x more tanky

Wait, which build alphas 144 damage vs a 50 point IS alpha?

12 SPL is 72 split in two volleys. Your 10 smalls with 2 ERLL also 72 split in two volleys.

[RestosIII]

Dakota1000, on 19 September 2016 - 12:17 AM, said:

Wait, which build alphas 144 damage vs a 50 point IS alpha?

12 SPL is 72 split in two volleys. Your 10 smalls with 2 ERLL also 72 split in two volleys.

I need someone else to argue in my place. 4 AM and about to fall unconscious. You've been deputized. Good luck.