247 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

RestosIII, on 19 September 2016 - 12:19 AM, said:

I need someone else to argue in my place. 4 AM and about to fall unconscious. You've been deputized. Good luck.

Woo, I won't let you down chief.

[DovisKhan]

Dakota1000, on 19 September 2016 - 12:17 AM, said:

Wait, which build alphas 144 damage vs a 50 point IS alpha?

12 SPL is 72 split in two volleys. Your 10 smalls with 2 ERLL also 72 split in two volleys.

Marauder will rune either 2 UAC5 + 4 ML or 3 AC5 and 4 MLL, in both cases he'll be able to fire off MLs once and ACs twice

You fire of 12 X 6 two times that results in 144 dmg and you have a full second to get to cover, so at most you'll get a brushing strike

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

DovisKhan, on 19 September 2016 - 12:48 AM, said:

Marauder will rune either 2 UAC5 + 4 ML or 3 AC5 and 4 MLL, in both cases he'll be able to fire off MLs once and ACs twice

You fire of 12 X 6 two times that results in 144 dmg and you have a full second to get to cover, so at most you'll get a brushing strike

But why is your Nova able to fire its alpha strike twice while the Marauder only fires once and you still manage to get to cover in that situation? Also the Marauder still outranges your mech heavily in this situation. Also why would you only be getting a brushing strike against a mech with 10 or 15 points of pinpoint front loaded damage?

I'm confused by this situation you are illustrating.

[DovisKhan]

Dakota1000, on 19 September 2016 - 01:44 AM, said:

But why is your Nova able to fire its alpha strike twice while the Marauder only fires once and you still manage to get to cover in that situation? Also the Marauder still outranges your mech heavily in this situation. Also why would you only be getting a brushing strike against a mech with 10 or 15 points of pinpoint front loaded damage?

I'm confused by this situation you are illustrating.

You hide because you trade 2 bursts for one, if you stare you trade 1.5 to 1


That's why you don't stare, cause MAD will win in a stare fight, he won't in a burst fight

Edited by DovisKhan, 19 September 2016 - 02:05 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

DovisKhan, on 19 September 2016 - 02:04 AM, said:

You hide because you trade 2 bursts for one, if you stare you trade 1.5 to 1


That's why you don't stare, cause MAD will win in a stare fight, he won't in a burst fight

Doesn't really answer what I was asking.

Are you just suggesting some situation that favors the Nova, where it has cover at a good range from the Marauder, can get its ghost heat dodging volleys off, and is against a Marauder that can't manage to hit the Nova twice while the Nova does manage to dodge, fire, get to cover, and pop up and fire again?

We could just put the Marauder in a situation that favors it, for example, having the Marauder at its optimal range for the AC5s and hill peeking. Then the Marauder has opened up your CT or ripped off a side torso before you get in range then once you get within 270m it either destroys your CT or opens up your remaining side torso, then just finishes you off after you hit him with 36 points of damage.

What's going on?

[DovisKhan]

Dakota1000, on 19 September 2016 - 02:53 AM, said:

Doesn't really answer what I was asking.

Are you just suggesting some situation that favors the Nova, where it has cover at a good range from the Marauder, can get its ghost heat dodging volleys off, and is against a Marauder that can't manage to hit the Nova twice while the Nova does manage to dodge, fire, get to cover, and pop up and fire again?

We could just put the Marauder in a situation that favors it, for example, having the Marauder at its optimal range for the AC5s and hill peeking. Then the Marauder has opened up your CT or ripped off a side torso before you get in range then once you get within 270m it either destroys your CT or opens up your remaining side torso, then just finishes you off after you hit him with 36 points of damage.

What's going on?

Well, the assumption is - the faster mech will have the better positioning, if the pilot skill is even, this assumption will hold true.


I was considering Stormcrow for this more than Nova (though Nova will work to a lesser extent as well), as they can both use this build, but SCR moves at 100+ speed, which is 50% faster than what you'd have in a MAD


So yes, a SCR will be able to get off two volleys and hide cause it moves faster, is more agile and since the cooldown of cspl is significantly lower, there is nothing the MAD can do.



Sure if the MAD catches a Crow or Nova in the open, it's no contest, it will wreck them with absolutely no problem



However if you're a decent crow pilot that won't happen and 12 cspls have almost the same dps as a 6 CUAC5 Direwolf (actually more than that, but we're assuming that RNJeesus loves the Dire and his weapons don't jam much)

Edited by DovisKhan, 19 September 2016 - 03:04 AM.

[Joey Tankblaster]

*sarcasmmodeon*

There is no balance issue clan vs IS in MWO

*sarcasmmodeoff*

check yourself...
http://mwomercs.com/...sts-are-op-but/

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

DovisKhan, on 19 September 2016 - 03:03 AM, said:

Well, the assumption is - the faster mech will have the better positioning, if the pilot skill is even, this assumption will hold true.

I was considering Stormcrow for this more than Nova (though Nova will work to a lesser extent as well), as they can both use this build, but SCR moves at 100+ speed, which is 50% faster than what you'd have in a MAD

So yes, a SCR will be able to get off two volleys and hide cause it moves faster, is more agile and since the cooldown of cspl is significantly lower, there is nothing the MAD can do.

Sure if the MAD catches a Crow or Nova in the open, it's no contest, it will wreck them with absolutely no problem

However if you're a decent crow pilot that won't happen and 12 cspls have almost the same dps as a 6 CUAC5 Direwolf (actually more than that, but we're assuming that RNJeesus loves the Dire and his weapons don't jam much)

So basically, if the extremely short range brawler build gets in range of the non brawler build it reks its face? I mean, that's pretty much common of all brawlers.

If we're talking brawler vs brawler Clan vs IS, you'd have an IS mech either with a large amount of ASRM6s, some number of pulse lasers, or high bore autocannons. Clan gets higher damage output, and sometimes more speed, IS gets longer range (at least on laser brawlers), more structure/armor, cooler running builds. Basically the clanners have the potential to kill the IS mech faster in a twisting free zone, but the IS mechs are able to twist the clanner's longer duration alphas then hit with either frontloaded damage or short duration laser damage. The added structure quirks help balance the fight when an IS mech has an XL, but when the IS mech brings a standard, as is standard for many brawlers, it gives them a distinct advantage.

We could pick an IS and Clan mech to battle at various weight classes all day, but really they do both have their pros and cons.

Joey Tankblaster, on 19 September 2016 - 03:13 AM, said:

*sarcasmmodeon*

There is no balance issue clan vs IS in MWO

*sarcasmmodeoff*

check yourself...
http://mwomercs.com/...sts-are-op-but/

Those stats also show the Viper as better than the Stormcrow due to how the interpreter created the numbers from the data. I'm not really sure I put much of any weight into it.

Edited by Dakota1000, 19 September 2016 - 03:37 AM.

[DovisKhan]

Dakota1000, on 19 September 2016 - 03:33 AM, said:

So basically, if the extremely short range brawler build gets in range of the non brawler build it reks its face? I mean, that's pretty much common of all brawlers.

If we're talking brawler vs brawler Clan vs IS, you'd have an IS mech either with a large amount of ASRM6s, some number of pulse lasers, or high bore autocannons. Clan gets higher damage output, and sometimes more speed, IS gets longer range (at least on laser brawlers), more structure/armor, cooler running builds. Basically the clanners have the potential to kill the IS mech faster in a twisting free zone, but the IS mechs are able to twist the clanner's longer duration alphas then hit with either frontloaded damage or short duration laser damage. The added structure quirks help balance the fight when an IS mech has an XL, but when the IS mech brings a standard, as is standard for many brawlers, it gives them a distinct advantage.

We could pick an IS and Clan mech to battle at various weight classes all day, but really they do both have their pros and cons.




Those stats also show the Viper as better than the Stormcrow due to how the interpreter created the numbers from the data. I'm not really sure I put much of any weight into it.

Almost all true, except for the fact that Clans run way cooler if they pack the same damage


Also yes - SRMs are the king of brawl if you can boat them in large quantities, like a 6 ASRM6 Catapult, however if it's an IS medium, it will at most carry 4 x ASRM6, which translates into 13 dps, while 12 spls have 24 dps, almost double and they're just 0.75 duration, that's not really much more spread than the srms


More importantly it's 4 vs 2.25 sec, which is huge, cause if you hit your first volley at the same time, he will hit his second volley and you will both hit the 3rd one at pretty much the same time


Which translates into him doing 216 dmg and you just 100, by that time components start falling of or you're dead


While all what I'm saying might look a mere opinion, the leaderboard events had top 4 out of 5 mediums be Clan, they're just objectively better


Heh I bought and mastered Stormcrow just this weakened, one of the most fun mechs in game for me now, you can really just run up to anything if you're careful and then it doesn't matter If they see you, unless it's an assault with dakka or heavy with Srms they're going down

Edited by DovisKhan, 19 September 2016 - 04:58 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

RestosIII, on 18 September 2016 - 10:42 PM, said:

Wait wait wait, there are people that don't nuke Novas instantly? Only close range Clan build I've seen work against competent players is Splat Dogs, and those are still taken down easily by brawler mechs on the IS side. I will admit, I don't run Clan brawlers basically, so there may have been some changes I missed recently that made them not deathtraps, and I concede on that point if it is true.

Still, SRM Crows? Brawler Timber Wolves? The last time.e I ran into those they died FAST to Marauders and Warhammers setup for CQC.

In public queue, perhaps. Not in a competitive match. The Marauders have the problem where their firepower is either quantitatively or qualitatively inferior to alternatives for a competitive deck. Warhammers are pretty good for overwatch, but not for brawl, though KDK has generally succeeded the Warhammer in that role. It is now the Heavies' job to poptart the enemy's KDKs to death.

Before the Power Position became the dominating strategy. the brawl medium options were Griffin 3M, Nova, Storm Crow, and Hunchback 4P. The Griffin is amazing at sustaining a brawl, but the raw ability for the Clan 'Mechs to just open up targets earned them priority targeting at the outset of every engagement.

[SlyJJ]

I dont understand how the "ability" to do significantly less damage is a "strength"

IS mechs generate less heat because they dont have the ability to do as much damage. Clan mechs generate more heat because they do significantly more damage. An AC can mount 6 erML and do damage comparable to IS mediums and heavies.

All of the counter arguments against the extreme leverage the clans has discusses 1 on 1 with skilled players. When CW teams rush, its not one at a time its the whole team (or several of them). Likewise when you form a firing line. So what happens then?

You get a cluster of mechs that can instantly double tap their UACs and put out damage comparable to 2 IS mechs of the same weight. You dont need crits or CT aiming or anything like that when you've got 4 kodiaks pouring damage onto a single mech- pinpoint or not theres not enough armor to deal with such a situation. Lets not forget that before you even get to said brawl, you've got shadow cats sniping you from the drop zone with PPCs and ER-L. The fact its hotter is irrelevant since they'll just let their heat drop while they run around with the speed of an IS light.

You can also mount several ER ML and have plenty of tonnage left over for a UAC or other weaponry. Clan mediums = IS Large. So with 4 tons and 4 crit spaces you do the damage that IS has to dedicate 20 tons and 8 crits. I've got a few clan mech- the heat isnt that big of a deal, especially when its so easy to outmaneuver a comparable IS mech for a few seconds and drop another alpha- while still doing significantly more damage.

Can these things be overcome with teamwork? Of course they can, but the fact that teamwork is absolutely essential proves my point, because if you just pug it you're at a significant disadvantage

Edited by SlyJJ, 19 September 2016 - 07:03 AM.

[Dago Red]

SlyJJ, on 19 September 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:

I dont understand how the "ability" to do significantly less damage is a "strength"

IS mechs generate less heat because they dont have the ability to do as much damage. Clan mechs generate more heat because they do significantly more damage. An AC can mount 6 erML and do damage comparable to IS mediums and heavies.

All of the counter arguments against the extreme leverage the clans has discusses 1 on 1 with skilled players. When CW teams rush, its not one at a time its the whole team (or several of them). Likewise when you form a firing line. So what happens then?

You get a cluster of mechs that can instantly double tap their UACs and put out damage comparable to 2 IS mechs of the same weight. You dont need crits or CT aiming or anything like that when you've got 4 kodiaks pouring damage onto a single mech- pinpoint or not theres not enough armor to deal with such a situation. Lets not forget that before you even get to said brawl, you've got shadow cats sniping you from the drop zone with PPCs and ER-L. The fact its hotter is irrelevant since they'll just let their heat drop while they run around with the speed of an IS light.

You can also mount several ER ML and have plenty of tonnage left over for a UAC or other weaponry. Clan mediums = IS Large. So with 4 tons and 4 crit spaces you do the damage that IS has to dedicate 20 tons and 8 crits. I've got a few clan mech- the heat isnt that big of a deal, especially when its so easy to outmaneuver a comparable IS mech for a few seconds and drop another alpha- while still doing significantly more damage.

Can these things be overcome with teamwork? Of course they can, but the fact that teamwork is absolutely essential proves my point, because if you just pug it you're at a significant disadvantage

So what you're saying is it's both able to be dealt with 1v1 and in teamwork scenarios?

[SlyJJ]

What Im saying is that Clans can drop significantly more damage and a lesser expense, in both 1 on 1 and teamwork scenarios.

[DrxAbstract]

SlyJJ, on 18 September 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

Examples? Artic cheetahs get decimated by which IS lights?

Locust eats ACH for breakfast, easily. The ACH only stands ahead of the Locust on a broad, general spectrum of overall usage... But 1 on 1, a Locust will decimate an ACH.

SlyJJ, on 18 September 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

Streak crows get decimated by which IS medium?

Typically that depends on the pilot. An extremely well piloted Skillcrow will decimate the majority of IS Medium Chassis/Build combinations... But most IS Mediums are capable of putting up a fight and pulling out a win against one. In a broader spectrum of usefulness and versatility, well... Grrrriffin does well with SRMs, Cent/Hunch does alright with ACs and Blackjack/Crab can match it for Energy prowess... More or less.

SlyJJ, on 18 September 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

Timberswolves and kodiaks reign supreme at heavy and assault... so which IS mechs "shite" on clan mechs?

Grasshopper, Black Knight, Warhammer, Marauder, Thunderbolt... Plenty of choices for putting a TBR/EBJ in the dirt, despite not having comparable build diversity, which may not seem ideal in the bigger picture but it's functionally reliable.

An Atlas or KGC can take down a Kodiak provided the situation suits their respective builds... But neither are as varied in their utility and capability.

Simply put, many IS Mechs can take down their Clan counterparts in a pitted battle, but the sheer versatility of Clan Mechs allows them to effectively engage their targets, that would otherwise have the upper hand, in conditions that put them at a disadvantage... Or targets that are just not "on the list" of having the potential to withstand them.

Such is life on the battlefield...

[Racerxintegra2k]

If you took 12 pugs in Innersphere Trial mechs vs a 12 pugs of Clan Trial mechs. Which do you think would have a much higher probability of victory ? In my mind there is no question. I would bet my paycheck on Clan every time, any clan pilot that thinks clan isn't op willing to take the inner sphere PM me. I could use more money.

Edited by Racerxintegra2k, 19 September 2016 - 07:41 AM.

[RestosIII]

SlyJJ, on 19 September 2016 - 07:13 AM, said:

What Im saying is that Clans can drop significantly more damage and a lesser expense, in both 1 on 1 and teamwork scenarios.

What did I say about quoting the people you're talking to? At this point I'm starting to believe you're doing it on purpose so you can attempt to get the last word in without people realizing you replied. Shame on you.

[Andi Nagasia]

SlyJJ, on 19 September 2016 - 07:13 AM, said:

What Im saying is that Clans can drop significantly more damage and a lesser expense, in both 1 on 1 and teamwork scenarios.

but as Stated Earlier,

Andi Nagasia, on 18 September 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

Clan Lasers do more Damage, so its easier to Command more damage a match with Clan Weapons,
now with longer Burn Times this Damage Spread across Mechs and usually isnt in only 1 component,
this means that Clans do more Damage but its less Effective Damage than IS with shorter Burns,

this is the same for IS Ballistics, its easier to take your time Aim and hit an AC20 into a weak CT,
its much harder to do the same for Clan UAC20s and when you Double Tap thats 40 Damage your spreading,
in this same insance IS has more Effective Damage but Clan just has more Damage,

Clan do more damage, but does that matter when IS can out live that more Damage Done,
(one side is Light Trucks with Cannons, the other is Tanks with Machine Guns, we call this Balance)

[Jon Gotham]

SlyJJ, on 18 September 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

Examples? Artic cheetahs get decimated by which IS lights? Streak crows get decimated by which IS medium? Timberswolves and kodiaks reign supreme at heavy and assault... so which IS mechs "shite" on clan mechs?

You need to drop your bias and check your facts.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

SlyJJ, on 19 September 2016 - 07:13 AM, said:

What Im saying is that Clans can drop significantly more damage and a lesser expense, in both 1 on 1 and teamwork scenarios.

Clans put out inefficient damage but they put out more of it. IS puts out very efficient damage. This means with an IS mech its easier to put your damage onto an enemy, and more importantly target specific components.

Also an Arctic Cheetah doesn't usually run 6 ERML, it sucks, the heat's just too high. It could put out an alpha equal to that of an IS heavy once, but that IS heavy could put out that alpha 3 or 4 times at least. IS lights can also run alphas that high, take a 4MPL+4ML Firestarter and you're doing 44 point alphas. There's no point comparing the possible damage between Lights and heavies, since its pretty much the same on either side, just limited by hardpoint numbers.

IS mechs, in general, pay more tonnage and crits for their weapons, but the weapons themselves are superior, at least from a competitive standpoint. IS is the PPFLD king and clan's have nothing to even compare to it, Clans are the saturation damage Kings, able to hose out double taps from UACs and high laser alphas and boat lots of missiles, but its much more inaccurate, much more spread. IS Large pulse lasers have shorter durations than Clan small pulse lasers for example, allowing IS LPLs to be very effective at killing light mechs, while a clan version is terrible against one.

[Besh]

SlyJJ, on 19 September 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:

[...]

Can these things be overcome with teamwork? Of course they can, but the fact that teamwork is absolutely essential proves my point, because if you just pug it you're at a significant disadvantage

THIS is I think "nail on the Head" .

It "may" have been a (semi)conscious design choice on PGI's Side, to kindof reflect the 2 diffferent fighting "Styles" and "Philosophies" .

The Clans with their almost Samurai like worship of Duels - even succcessive ones, without the ability to repair the 'Mechs in between - and personal performance, while IS has to work together better as a Team, using combined Arms and superior Group Tactics ( as well as numbers ofc, but thats on another page...) to be able to stand up to the Clans .

Ever considered that ?