247 replies to this topic

[RestosIII]

Mister Popo, on 19 September 2016 - 01:41 PM, said:

Shhhh, just gaze at his girth and know we are not worthy.

[Andi Nagasia]

SlyJJ, on 19 September 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:

Andi Nag, I'll condense your point and say that both you and Restolll are arguing that just because th weapons do more damage doesnt mean they're better. This is where we're in great disagreement. Theres only so much armor to go around, and yes damage in either sense absolutely counts when you're brawling in this game because damage gets kills. While its great to pinpoint your damage, its also not realistic to say thats the only thing that matters and other hits dont count. All that damage that you guys are writing off as being useless is blowing off our arms, legs, and criting our torsos. People lose weapons and equipment when they take damage and unless all of your mechs have armor quirks like atlas' then that extra damage is all the difference in the world....

In regards to the streaks, yes their damage may be spread across an entire mech, but so too are the regular srms. Not all of the regular srms hit their mark either... In most of my CW matches (because that where you get is vs clan matches) most of my deaths occur after I become a stick, so all the twisting and turning doesnt do much when clan has the luxury of just pumping out damage. That is exactly what we're talking about- you're attempting to say that all that damage doesnt account for much, but when its destroying your opponents weapons and limbs, what would you say its doing?

you dont lose Equipment when you still have armor, please reread my Math,
-
ive given you the Facts, and the Math behind them, showing you that your Logic is Flawed,
and you seem to bypass these Facts and this Math, and give no Facts or Math of your own to Counter,
-
Starts at 11seconds

Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 19 September 2016 - 01:57 PM.

[Harambe McHarambeface Kerensky]

VorpalAnvil, on 19 September 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

12v1 me bro.

Careful there, iL Mechwarrior might show up with 9 other italians at your door and take you up on that offer

[Vxheous]

SlyJJ, on 19 September 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:

Restolll, you're talking about piloting skill and tactics again when you compare the atlas and the kodiak. A kodiak can also twist and turn after every shot to roll the damage. It doesnt take but a fraction of a second to double tap a UAC. Again we're talking about two evenly skilled pilots, so if the atlas is going to twist and turn to roll the damage (or not) so too is the kodiak.

Andi Nag, I'll condense your point and say that both you and Restolll are arguing that just because th weapons do more damage doesnt mean they're better. This is where we're in great disagreement. Theres only so much armor to go around, and yes damage in either sense absolutely counts when you're brawling in this game because damage gets kills. While its great to pinpoint your damage, its also not realistic to say thats the only thing that matters and other hits dont count. All that damage that you guys are writing off as being useless is blowing off our arms, legs, and criting our torsos. People lose weapons and equipment when they take damage and unless all of your mechs have armor quirks like atlas' then that extra damage is all the difference in the world....

In regards to the streaks, yes their damage may be spread across an entire mech, but so too are the regular srms. Not all of the regular srms hit their mark either... In most of my CW matches (because that where you get is vs clan matches) most of my deaths occur after I become a stick, so all the twisting and turning doesnt do much when clan has the luxury of just pumping out damage. That is exactly what we're talking about- you're attempting to say that all that damage doesnt account for much, but when its destroying your opponents weapons and limbs, what would you say its doing?

Vorpal is trying too hard to be "cool" and so he attacks the posters rather than the argument- its the last vestige of someone with nothing else to offer for their argument.

IS weapons have lower damage per weapon, yes, but because of lower heat, you can end up boating more of them for equivalent damage and heat. Let's compare the laser vomit Timberwolf build to the laser vomit Warhammer build (I know laser vomit meta has fallen off, but I'll compare them for the sake of FW people that still think laser vomit OP)

Timberwolf with 2CLPL+4CERML alpha = 54 damage (usually 3 times before overheat)
Warhammer 6D with 3LPL+4ML alpha = 53 damage (usually 3 times before overheat)

If we go more heat efficient 2CLPL+3CERML Timber at 47 damage for 4 alpha before overheat vs 3LPL+3ML Warhammer at 48 damage for 4 alpha before overheat

In a firing line at ~350m from choke, the damage difference is virtually non-existent, and the Warhammer has a better hitbox profile with high mounts

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 19 September 2016 - 02:12 PM.

[VorpalAnvil]

Racerxintegra2k, on 19 September 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

Every thread you are in you either tell someone they suck or not to play the game if they are not as good as you. Troll much? Do your parents keep the basement temp to cold for you, is that why you are so cranky ?

The last thing we need is a link to your crap leaderboard stats as well. There's enough terribad in this thread to go around.

Mister Popo, on 19 September 2016 - 01:41 PM, said:

Shhhh, just gaze at his girth and know we are not worthy.

[Vxheous]

VorpalAnvil, on 19 September 2016 - 04:29 PM, said:

The last thing we need is a link to your crap leaderboard stats as well. There's enough terribad in this thread to go around.

It's too late, people have already looked, and the results aren't pretty. Harambe McHarambeface Kerensky on the other hand hasn't played in 2 months, but season 1 stats has a 2.0 W/L and a 3.3 K/D

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 19 September 2016 - 04:41 PM.

[Deadead]

just my 2 cents. as someone who's played both sides of the event, i'm pretty consistently finding it easier AND more fun on the I S side.

im not being all SUPER META either, just picking quirks that suit me. in scout mode hunchback 4sp srm4x2 5 spl max std engine worked so much better then anything i used on the clan side. for giggles i dropped to a std 210 and packed in an LPL srm6x2 and 4 ml at one point (give or take 1 ml). Picking on crow's legs is LOL. so much more fun than being the crow pilot.

invasion mode i'm rocking 2 battlemasters (one with an XL engine!! ) with LPL and ML as well as a firestarter and a wolfhound, both 6 mpl. my dmg isn't anywhere as high but im scoring so much more KMDD just because my damage isnt spreading ALL OVER THE DANG target.

next up! firestarter spl flamer std engine for giggles.

[SlyJJ]

Andi Nagasi- Ive given factual numbers every time. Yes, you dont lose equipment when you have armor, but remember we dont have armor because you've already destroyed it at range with all that extra damage that you think is so negligible. More damage, more range, less heat, UACs, less weight, less crits. These are facts and these are numbers. I dont care "if piloted correctly this can be defeated" that talk about piloting skill and NOT the mech.

Kerensky:
Your example between the timberwolve and warhammer. That warhammer build will overheat on 2 alphas, not 3. Then again, so might that Timberwolf, so thats a moot point. A quick visit to the mechlab shows that I can have that build with a TW and 1.2 heat management. In order to get the similar heat management on a warhammer (1.15) I need to drop my engine down to a top speed of 65kph. So we still have less heat management, and much less range in comparison, not to mention now the TW holds an incredible edge in maneuvering at 81 (when its not elited...). You're giving a hypothetical, which is appeciated, but you're assuming we get to that 350m range with no damage done.... when every clanner knows they've got range. Even then, it still significantly in favor of clan. More range, more damage, much much better speed and handling and in your example- even better heat management.

[Vxheous]

SlyJJ, on 19 September 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:

Andi Nagasi- Ive given factual numbers every time. Yes, you dont lose equipment when you have armor, but remember we dont have armor because you've already destroyed it at range with all that extra damage that you think is so negligible. More damage, more range, less heat, UACs, less weight, less crits. These are facts and these are numbers. I dont care "if piloted correctly this can be defeated" that talk about piloting skill and NOT the mech.

Kerensky:
Your example between the timberwolve and warhammer. That warhammer build will overheat on 2 alphas, not 3. Then again, so might that Timberwolf, so thats a moot point. A quick visit to the mechlab shows that I can have that build with a TW and 1.2 heat management. In order to get the similar heat management on a warhammer (1.15) I need to drop my engine down to a top speed of 65kph. So we still have less heat management, and much less range in comparison, not to mention now the TW holds an incredible edge in maneuvering at 81 (when its not elited...). You're giving a hypothetical, which is appeciated, but you're assuming we get to that 350m range with no damage done.... when every clanner knows they've got range. Even then, it still significantly in favor of clan. More range, more damage, much much better speed and handling and in your example- even better heat management.

My Warhammer moves 83kph elited and I think the heat management is actually 1.17 (not at my home computer), and yeah, I get 3-4 alphas out of it before I overheat (2 on a hot map). Learn to mechlab, it's called a XL 335. Before you say that the XL in a Warhammer makes it unviable, here's my stats for that particular mech playing solo/group queue at Tier 1 matchmaking: 75 Games // 2.0 W/L // 2.56 K/D. There's a reason that top players all consider the Warhammer one of the best current heavy mech in the game (Black Widow Dakka and 6R PPC/AC10 is equally devastating, even more so in the current meta)

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 19 September 2016 - 06:57 PM.

[Tahawus]

VorpalAnvil, on 19 September 2016 - 04:29 PM, said:

The last thing we need is a link to your crap leaderboard stats as well. There's enough terribad in this thread to go

I think you're taking about my statistics, and I'll stand behind them until someone comes up with a better quatitative comparison of overall mech performance. As soon as you have something comparable or can provide a data based alternative let's talk.

Edit: note my many caveats in the original thread.

Edited by Tahawus, 19 September 2016 - 07:08 PM.

[SlyJJ]

I've done the math. Excuse me for not wanting to rewrite the whole thing, but clan lasers do more damage per second and comparable damage per unit of heat. In short, the extra duration is because of the extra damage. If you kept your target in view for the same amount of time as an IS pilot you'd still do the same damage. The only exception is the large pulse lasers where IS has a much shorter duration, but still has half the range as the large pulse. Cooldown still limits the amount of fire back and forth, so the clan is still doing more actual damage.

In regards to your warhammers, you're running XL's on them. That means you're toast once that armor is down. Lets not forget all that extra damage clan does. So, you can crit their torsos and they're fine, and a crit to you makes you toast..... and you dont think that, on top of greater damage, greater range, let crits, and less weighted weapons.... isnt an overwhelmingly significant observation to suggest that maybe clans have a bit of an edge?

Edited by SlyJJ, 19 September 2016 - 07:29 PM.

[Requiemking]

SlyJJ, on 19 September 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

I've done the math. Excuse me for not wanting to rewrite the whole thing, but clan lasers do more damage per second and comparable damage per unit of heat. In short, the extra duration is because of the extra damage. If you kept your target in view for the same amount of time as an IS pilot you'd still do the same damage. The only exception is the large pulse lasers where IS has a much shorter duration, but still has half the range as the large pulse. Cooldown still limits the amount of fire back and forth, so the clan is still doing more actual damage.

In regards to your warhammers, you're running XL's on them. That means you're toast once that armor is down. Lets not forget all that extra damage clan does. So, you can crit their torsos and they're fine, and a crit to you makes you toast..... and you dont think that, on top of greater damage, greater range, let crits, and less weighted weapons.... isnt an overwhelmingly significant observation to suggest that maybe clans have a bit of an edge?

Except, they don't. Clan's range and damage upgrades are worthless when they can't concentrate that damage. Also, you are wrong about Clan's dealing more overall damage and having better heat. IS weapons generate less heat, meaning that, in the long run, the Warhammer can fire more often than the Timby. And, because the 'hammer can fire more often, he will get more damage than the Timby.

[Vxheous]

SlyJJ, on 19 September 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

I've done the math. Excuse me for not wanting to rewrite the whole thing, but clan lasers do more damage per second and comparable damage per unit of heat. In short, the extra duration is because of the extra damage. If you kept your target in view for the same amount of time as an IS pilot you'd still do the same damage. The only exception is the large pulse lasers where IS has a much shorter duration, but still has half the range as the large pulse. Cooldown still limits the amount of fire back and forth, so the clan is still doing more actual damage.

In regards to your warhammers, you're running XL's on them. That means you're toast once that armor is down. Lets not forget all that extra damage clan does. So, you can crit their torsos and they're fine, and a crit to you makes you toast..... and you dont think that, on top of greater damage, greater range, let crits, and less weighted weapons.... isnt an overwhelmingly significant observation to suggest that maybe clans have a bit of an edge?

We're going to just have to agree to disagree as I am not going to convince you. My stats speak for itself, both my top Clan mechs and top IS mechs (which all run IS XL's) are identical, and so are most other good players in this game. I do the same damage in IS mechs as compared to my Clan mechs whether it be solo queue quick play, group queue quick play, Faction Warfare, MRBC, you name it.

[SlyJJ]

Indeed, I dont think either of us are doing a good job of persuading the other, but I also think that you need to take into account that at tier 1 with those stats, you're proving to be the exception rather than the rule because of well..... piloting skill.

On a side note, I'll give your suggestions of XL on the warhammer a shot and see how it does.

Edited by SlyJJ, 19 September 2016 - 07:39 PM.

[Vxheous]

SlyJJ, on 19 September 2016 - 07:37 PM, said:

Indeed, I dont think either of us are doing a good job of persuading the other, but I also think that you need to take into account that at tier 1 with those stats, you're proving to be the exception rather than the rule because of well..... piloting skill.

On a side note, I'll give your suggestions of XL on the warhammer a shot and see how it does.

Just remember to shoot/twist/back behind cover. 3LPL in the left torso for poke, and the 4ML split between Right torso and right arm. Once you get 80% heat+, you can always fall back to just using the 3LPL and sneak in the 4ML until you can cool off behind cover.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 19 September 2016 - 07:54 PM.

[SlyJJ]

Appreciate the tip

[DovisKhan]

Andi Nagasia, on 19 September 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

but as Stated Earlier,

Clan do more damage, but does that matter when IS can out live that more Damage Done,
(one side is Light Trucks with Cannons, the other is Tanks with Machine Guns, we call this Balance)

No they can not, cause Clans usually have ~2x the damage while only ~5-20% less structure

[DovisKhan]

Requiemking, on 19 September 2016 - 07:34 PM, said:

Except, they don't. Clan's range and damage upgrades are worthless when they can't concentrate that damage. Also, you are wrong about Clan's dealing more overall damage and having better heat. IS weapons generate less heat, meaning that, in the long run, the Warhammer can fire more often than the Timby. And, because the 'hammer can fire more often, he will get more damage than the Timby.

Absolutely not true, you forgot one crucial fact, Clans have waaaaaay better dissipation, so for the same damage they will have significantly more shots till they overheat


In a brawl you can fire 36 alphas with Timby all day, 12 cspl crow can dish out ~144 dmg in under 3 sec, nowhere near overheating, that's way enough to drop most mechs


A Clan medium carries more firepower than most IS assaults


So clans are always better in ambush scenarios, poking scenarios, focus fire scenarios


The only place IS stands a chance is a close range brawl in an AC/SRM mech

[DrxAbstract]

Andi Nagasia, on 19 September 2016 - 01:01 PM, said:

um just a question but do you know how streaks work? ok lets move on,

a Streak(Skill)Crow can do 72Damage which is great for harvesting Damage but not for Killing,
that 72Damage, is usually spread out over the whole mech i did tests with Streaks before,
the tests showed no more than 2 Missiles will go to any one location,
-
so a StreakCrow alpha will have no more than 20Damage to a single Location(at most) every 6secs,
a Stock GRF-2N has 40ST armor and 54CT armor so its safe for 2Volleys(12 seconds)
-
now lets look at a normal GRF-2N for Scouting(325XL, 4SRM6 2ML ECM +1DHS)
thats 51Damage(4SRM6) every 4secs, thats enough to cut threw a Stock SCRs CT armor(50),
-
now the GRF can Fire 3 Times before a Lucky SCR will Breach its ST/CT Armor,
but lets assume the GRF cant aim and hits both STs and its CT, all the damage spread over all 3 Zones,
the SCR will have only 10Hp(Internal Structure) left in each ST and 36Hp(internal Structure) in its CT,
-
now with all of this we Still havent added in the GRF 2ML(10Damage) that can Fire 4 times during this 12Secs,


i dont mean to ask odd questions, but how again will a 72Damage SkillCrow Alpha win vs a GRF-2N,
then again im a Clanner so by all means check my math, i could have made a mistake, though i dont think so,

I'll answer this one because I've had to deal with this repeatedly in Scouting (When playing as Clan) and always win in the above scenario:

4 Reasons:

Range, Locking Weapons, Kiting and Flamer.

In most encounters I have with Griffins, I make sure it's in an open area where I have room to move, and more importantly, to run away. The biggest mistake Streakcrows make when fighting Griffins is they charge right at them and immediately begin the fight as a brawl, which is to the Griffin's advantage, to say the least. I run. The Stormcrow has amazing torso twist and adequate speed that allows the pilot to both delay the encounter and, since Streaks lock on, fire their weapons while doing so. Despite having to remain relatively close to the Griffin for BAP to counter the ECM and being unable to utilize the maximum 360 meter range of Streaks, being at 240'ish meters against an SRM boat is better than 100 meters or less against an SRM boat... Basically, I kite them to death.

In the event I am forced to brawl a Griffin, either because I get legged, they eventually catch up, it's an urban brawl in River City or what have you, I carry a Flamer. That's the entire reason I use the SCR-Prime base chassis and not SCR-D - For the single Energy hardpoint. Griffins might otherwise be moderately efficient on Heat, but when you keep a Flamer on them they can only fire half their Alpha SRM Volley every 5-7 seconds (10-13 seconds if they're constantly laying on their Jump Jets, as many like to do) without shutting down, making them a non-issue. And if they do shutdown, as many have, it's easy to park your Stormcrow's nose against their back and fire a full alpha into it so the Streaks dont have time to spread and the Griffin takes it all to the Rear Torso, sometimes all to the Rear CT itself and POP! Dead Griffin.

With Crabs, Blackjacks, Cents and Hunchies, basically any IS Mechs with much better short-medium range accuracy weapons, you just charge them and start burninating their heat meter with the Flamer... Easy wins, every single one of them. This is all of course completely beside the fact I employ guerrilla tactics against them as well.

As I said, it's not exactly an obvious answer, because most people simply dont think about it for one reason or another... But that's how a Streakcrow beats a Griffin with relative ease... Just takes some out-of-the-box thinking and utilizing the advantages of your weapons. Just ask the 228 4-man Griffin team my guys beat - It was close, primarily because my 3 other Streakcrow teammates werent utilizing the same tactics I was (Kiting+Flamer), but in the end it was 3 Banged up Griffins vs. 1 Banged up Streakcrow (Me)... And we won. I'll see if I can hunt the screenshot if you'd like.

[Racerxintegra2k]

VorpalAnvil, on 19 September 2016 - 04:29 PM, said:

The last thing we need is a link to your crap leaderboard stats as well. There's enough terribad in this thread to go around.

What do my stats have to do with anything on this thread? I never claimed to be anything but average to below average for 6 months of play, which i'll assume most of the newer players are. Yet you insist on pounding your chest that you are superior, congrats dude yet again you've told the world how good you are. You sir are the worst kind of personality a self promoting pompous e-bully. I truly hope you find something in life worth living for other than your stats.

Edited by Racerxintegra2k, 20 September 2016 - 03:52 AM.