247 replies to this topic

[SlyJJ]

This is what I mean about willfully ignorant mystere- clan weapons are superior, but you're in denial for some reason. Why do so many take offense when someone states the obvious?

[The Zohan]

I dunno, cause your statement aint true? Just a wild guess tho.

[Andi Nagasia]

ok ok guys calm down,

@SlyJJ,
IS vs Clan Lasers are a Wash,
both sides feel the other has more Advantages and its up to interpretation how you look at it,
from where i see things and my experiences and Opinion i feel both have their Place and are ok,

Clan UACs are considered by many to be Inferior to IS ACs,
the reason is that Single Shots are much more reliable and easier to land than a Burst of several Shells,
also UACs damage isnt guaranteed as they are likely to Jam in a fire Fight(Luck and Chance Willing)

LRMs are a Mute Point as the whole LRM system needs a rework,
as such right now i can say IS to Clan LRMs are Balanced to each other,
thats not saying that LRMs are in any way Viable to other Weapon Systems,

the Biggest Out-liner is C-XL engines,
but theirs no Clear way to balance that, as may have their own Views on how it should be Balanced,
and Currently the Community is Split on which Direction we should go when it comes to such XL Balance,
(Make IS-XL like Clan-XL)(Give IS-XL Structure Bonuses to STs when Equipped, STD Gain CT Structure)

all in all both sides are Close to Balance but not Perfect at this time,
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 18 September 2016 - 06:26 PM.

[Bohxim]

While I defend that clans have the superior range and boating capabilities compared to IS, it's still rather balanced now.
For one, only in QP do we get extended poke fests, FW you'll have to play a little smarter. Most clans are the invaders the IS being the defenders, meaning for the start, IS can set up firing lined and kill zones benefitting them. All that range won't really help when they have to come into a 4-500 m kill box to even see the first mech. Even then, there are some IS mechs that excel is long range poking. So a mixed firing line helps cover various ranges as well as not blocking each other for shots or retreats. Of course if you can coax IS teams to play the poke game with you, it'll always be more advantageous
Personally I've had consistent 2k plus damage games on my IS decks and more wins while I'm struggling to do that on my clans. Sure the kdk3 is a beast but I'm limited to 1 and 3 mediums if I'm willing to risk an all or nothing first wave

[VorpalAnvil]

Deathlike, on 18 September 2016 - 04:17 PM, said:

What are your facts?

They are on the leaderboard, which I already pointed out.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

A lot of people have arguments about clan vs. IS balance that has nothing to do with mechs. Voip, skill, units, stuff like that. Surpisingly most of them disagree about IS having disadvantage.

Every time there is leaderboard event for all mechs of same weight class, various Clan mechs dominate the top positions, and by far. It's not fair, and it should be.

I have Clan mechs only and will continue getting only more clan mechs as I have warehouse full of Clan weapons and unlocked only Clan modules. (don't mind my Steiner assosiation, that was just to get a free mechbay)

Sure it's easy to argue it's difficult to make good balance, but right now it's way too off.

[Andi Nagasia]

Teer5, on 18 September 2016 - 07:11 PM, said:

Every time there is leaderboard event for all mechs of same weight class, various Clan mechs dominate the top positions, and by far. It's not fair, and it should be.

I have Clan mechs only and will continue getting only more clan mechs as I have warehouse full of Clan weapons and unlocked only Clan modules. (don't mind my Steiner assosiation, that was just to get a free mechbay)

Sure it's easy to argue it's difficult to make good balance, but right now it's way too off.

well you brought up Events which isnt a Good indicater, why isnt it?
Clan Lasers do more Damage, so its easier to Command more damage a match with Clan Weapons,
now with longer Burn Times this Damage Spread across Mechs and usually isnt in only 1 component,
this means that Clans do more Damage but its less Effective Damage than IS with shorter Burns,

this is the same for IS Ballistics, its easier to take your time Aim and hit an AC20 into a weak CT,
its much harder to do the same for Clan UAC20s and when you Double Tap thats 40 Damage your spreading,
in this same insance IS has more Effective Damage but Clan just has more Damage,

and we all know only Damage matters on the Leader Board,
so most Clan Mechs get high Stats, and IS lower but not by too much,


the same can be said if you have a Light Event see how high the match Scores are,
now Run an Assault event, you'll see the scores are much higher as theirs more Mech to shoot every match,

[RestosIII]

Andi Nagasia, on 18 September 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

well you brought up Events which isnt a Good indicater, why isnt it?
Clan Lasers do more Damage, so its easier to Command more damage a match with Clan Weapons,
now with longer Burn Times this Damage Spread across Mechs and usually isnt in only 1 component,
this means that Clans do more Damage but its less Effective Damage than IS with shorter Burns,

this is the same for IS Ballistics, its easier to take your time Aim and hit an AC20 into a weak CT,
its much harder to do the same for Clan UAC20s and when you Double Tap thats 40 Damage your spreading,
in this same insance IS has more Effective Damage but Clan just has more Damage,

and we all know only Damage matters on the Leader Board,
so most Clan Mechs get high Stats, and IS lower but not by too much,


the same can be said if you have a Light Event see how high the match Scores are,
now Run an Assault event, you'll see the scores are much higher as theirs more Mech to shoot every match,

It really is hilarious that the long burn time lasers and burst fire ACs, which are incredibly inefficient, are for the Clans. Who follow the motto of avoiding waste at all costs. PGI logic for you.

[Vxheous]

SlyJJ, on 18 September 2016 - 01:17 PM, said:

When I say willfully ignornant I mean that- theres no way one could consider IS tech superior to clan tech. You attempt to make the "git good" argument and go out on tangents that are really irrelevant.

The fact that some of you can be successful with both techs doesnt prove one over the other- a skilled player will probably do such a thing. We're talking about weapons and options, and clan has more of them. Maybe more or less than what some may argue, but they're there.... there IS a reason the competitive teams all go clan.

I would take current stat IS Large pulse laser at .67 burn time (pre-quirk) over clan Large pulse laser. Only thing you miss out on is range (10% range quirked IS Large pulses +range module have optimal 438m) but since every map in CW except for maybe Boreal has fights that end up being 300-500m, the IS large pulse as a laser platform reigns supreme.

Bohxim, on 18 September 2016 - 06:43 PM, said:

While I defend that clans have the superior range and boating capabilities compared to IS, it's still rather balanced now.
For one, only in QP do we get extended poke fests, FW you'll have to play a little smarter. Most clans are the invaders the IS being the defenders, meaning for the start, IS can set up firing lined and kill zones benefitting them. All that range won't really help when they have to come into a 4-500 m kill box to even see the first mech. Even then, there are some IS mechs that excel is long range poking. So a mixed firing line helps cover various ranges as well as not blocking each other for shots or retreats. Of course if you can coax IS teams to play the poke game with you, it'll always be more advantageous
Personally I've had consistent 2k plus damage games on my IS decks and more wins while I'm struggling to do that on my clans. Sure the kdk3 is a beast but I'm limited to 1 and 3 mediums if I'm willing to risk an all or nothing first wave

You can run Kodiak 3/Ebon Jag/Hunchback IIc/Arctic cheetah. If you do well with a Kodiak 3, you should do equally well with both the Ebon Jag and Hunchback IIc. (Ebon Jag 2xCUAC10+3CERML, Hunchback IIc 2xCUAC 10 +2CERML). You should be able to easily Dakka your way to 2k +

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 18 September 2016 - 07:41 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

RestosIII, on 18 September 2016 - 07:29 PM, said:

It really is hilarious that the long burn time lasers and burst fire ACs, which are incredibly inefficient, are for the Clans. Who follow the motto of avoiding waste at all costs. PGI logic for you.

SSSSSSSHHHHHHHhhhhhhh,,,,,,,.......Because,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 18 September 2016 - 07:34 PM.

[Michael Kail]

Andi Nagasia, on 18 September 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:

ok ok guys calm down,

@SlyJJ,
IS vs Clan Lasers are a Wash,
both sides feel the other has more Advantages and its up to interpretation how you look at it,
from where i see things and my experiences and Opinion i feel both have their Place and are ok,

Not a wash... not even. Different. Clan=longer range more damage and less weight and space. Only disadvantage is longer fire time. Clan lasers aren't grossly overpowered, but they are better.

Andi Nagasia, on 18 September 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:

Clan UACs are considered by many to be Inferior to IS ACs,
the reason is that Single Shots are much more reliable and easier to land than a Burst of several Shells,
also UACs damage isnt guaranteed as they are likely to Jam in a fire Fight(Luck and Chance Willing)

Firing four shots is less effective? Holy cow! Since when? I guess the Pentagon should stop buying all those submachine guns and high RoF weapons then. Okay, I apologize for the sarcasm. But you gotta see how wrong that statement is. One pull of the trigger on a single UAC20 can do up to 80 damage... and you can do it again in a few seconds!

Andi Nagasia, on 18 September 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:

LRMs are a Mute Point as the whole LRM system needs a rework,
as such right now i can say IS to Clan LRMs are Balanced to each other,
thats not saying that LRMs are in any way Viable to other Weapon Systems,

Just because the system needs reworking doesn't mean you can call the Clan LRM equal to the IS... or even just throw out the argument because you feel like it is moot. Clan LRM having no minimum range is enough of a difference to make them more powerful than IS.

Andi Nagasia, on 18 September 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:

the Biggest Out-liner is C-XL engines,
but theirs no Clear way to balance that, as may have their own Views on how it should be Balanced,
and Currently the Community is Split on which Direction we should go when it comes to such XL Balance,
(Make IS-XL like Clan-XL)(Give IS-XL Structure Bonuses to STs when Equipped, STD Gain CT Structure)

all in all both sides are Close to Balance but not Perfect at this time,
Edit-

Nope. Demonstrably unbalanced weapons. It's the way it should be however. Clans are tech superior. I live with it. It's just that the IS should have a larger army but that doesn't translate well in MWO.

[RestosIII]

Andi Nagasia, on 18 September 2016 - 07:33 PM, said:

[meida][/media]
SSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhh,,,,,,,,,,....

Michael Kail, on 18 September 2016 - 07:34 PM, said:

Not a wash... not even. Different. Clan=longer range more damage and less weight and space. Only disadvantage is longer fire time. Clan lasers aren't grossly overpowered, but they are better.

Firing four shots is less effective? Holy cow! Since when? I guess the Pentagon should stop buying all those submachine guns and high RoF weapons then. Okay, I apologize for the sarcasm. But you gotta see how wrong that statement is. One pull of the trigger on a single UAC20 can do up to 80 damage... and you can do it again in a few seconds!


Just because the system needs reworking doesn't mean you can call the Clan LRM equal to the IS... or even just throw out the argument because you feel like it is moot. Clan LRM having no minimum range is enough of a difference to make them more powerful than IS.



Nope. Demonstrably unbalanced weapons. It's the way it should be however. Clans are tech superior. I live with it. It's just that the IS should have a larger army but that doesn't translate well in MWO.

Apparently you've never used Clan autocannons. They don't fire 4 shots that do 20 damage each. They fire 4 shots that do 5 damage each. If a single pellet misses, you just did 15 damage, 2 pellets miss, you would have been better off with an IS AC/10.

Also, IS LRMs can punch through AMS MUCH easier than Clan LRMs, but all LRMs are garbage in most situations.

Edited by RestosIII, 18 September 2016 - 07:36 PM.

[SlyJJ]

Heres the problem with the whole pinpoint vs long burn/burst fire. The argument can go the other way as well. Really its just hypotheticals that come down to piloting skill and the enemy you're fighting (are they aware of you, taking evasive action, etc).

So, an IS pilot is just as likely to completely miss whatever hes aiming at as he is to get pinpoint damage. I would call burst fire vs single shot a preference. You're assuming a perfect shot each time. Likewise, when you get in a good shot, you still get 2 bursts of UAC effectively doubling your damage. In short, the burst fire of UAC's its not an equal counterweight to the overwhelming damage its capable of doing. The same can be said in regards to the longer burn times for lasers. Some may argue for, others against, but you're still doing significantly more damage at the end of the day. What you do with that damage is another discussion

[Vxheous]

Michael Kail, on 18 September 2016 - 07:34 PM, said:

Firing four shots is less effective? Holy cow! Since when? I guess the Pentagon should stop buying all those submachine guns and high RoF weapons then. Okay, I apologize for the sarcasm. But you gotta see how wrong that statement is. One pull of the trigger on a single UAC20 can do up to 80 damage... and you can do it again in a few seconds!

I think you need to go back into the game and actually use clan UACs....CAUC-20 fires 4 (slow) shells of 5 damage each to equal the 20 damage.

[RestosIII]

SlyJJ, on 18 September 2016 - 07:39 PM, said:

Heres the problem with the whole pinpoint vs long burn/burst fire. The argument can go the other way as well. Really its just hypotheticals that come down to piloting skill and the enemy you're fighting (are they aware of you, taking evasive action, etc).

So, an IS pilot is just as likely to completely miss whatever hes aiming at as he is to get pinpoint damage. I would call burst fire vs single shot a preference. You're assuming a perfect shot each time. Likewise, when you get in a good shot, you still get 2 bursts of UAC effectively doubling your damage. In short, the burst fire of UAC's its not an equal counterweight to the overwhelming damage its capable of doing. The same can be said in regards to the longer burn times for lasers. Some may argue for, others against, but you're still doing significantly more damage at the end of the day. What you do with that damage is another discussion

You get two bursts if it doesn't jam, and that's a lot of face-time for you to get both shots off for the full bursts. Same with the lasers. Face-time=enemy mechs being able to fire back. And with 12 vs 12 peekwarrior online, that is a lot of return fire you're probably getting in return. IS mechs have armor and structure quirks to take those shots and survive, Clan mechs do not.

[SlyJJ]

Yes, this is true- you get two shots assuming they dont jam, but the potential for the extra damage is still there and still significant. As to whether said IS mech has the extra armor to absorb that hit when they're face to face, they first have to cover a good distance to get face to face- during which they're getting chewed apart by high damage weapons.

If an IS pilot can get the jump and surprise a clanner (like a ddc hiding around the corner) then sure. Thats more the exception rather than the rule though.

[RestosIII]

SlyJJ, on 18 September 2016 - 07:57 PM, said:

Yes, this is true- you get two shots assuming they dont jam, but the potential for the extra damage is still there and still significant. As to whether said IS mech has the extra armor to absorb that hit when they're face to face, they first have to cover a good distance to get face to face- during which they're getting chewed apart by high damage weapons.

If an IS pilot can get the jump and surprise a clanner (like a ddc hiding around the corner) then sure. Thats more the exception rather than the rule though.

Most maps are small with a good deal of cover. Especially the maps people love to choose in QP, with most of the FW maps being where people have setup an ambush in close quarters on purpose due to the maps having tons of chokepoints. For instance, Canyon Network, Viridian Bog, HPG, Mining Collective, Forest Colony, and Crimson Strait almost always turn into melee brawls. Frozen City was the same until they made it 100% worse (outside of the giant fish in the center of the map).

[Mystere]

SlyJJ, on 18 September 2016 - 06:15 PM, said:

This is what I mean about willfully ignorant mystere- clan weapons are superior, but you're in denial for some reason. Why do so many take offense when someone states the obvious?

Streaming Clan autocannons are better than their corresponding pinpoint single-shell IS versions?

[InspectorG]

Michael Kail, on 18 September 2016 - 07:34 PM, said:

Not a wash... not even. Different. Clan=longer range more damage and less weight and space. Only disadvantage is longer fire time. Clan lasers aren't grossly overpowered, but they are better.

Firing four shots is less effective? Holy cow! Since when? I guess the Pentagon should stop buying all those submachine guns and high RoF weapons then. Okay, I apologize for the sarcasm. But you gotta see how wrong that statement is. One pull of the trigger on a single UAC20 can do up to 80 damage... and you can do it again in a few seconds!


Just because the system needs reworking doesn't mean you can call the Clan LRM equal to the IS... or even just throw out the argument because you feel like it is moot. Clan LRM having no minimum range is enough of a difference to make them more powerful than IS.



Nope. Demonstrably unbalanced weapons. It's the way it should be however. Clans are tech superior. I live with it. It's just that the IS should have a larger army but that doesn't translate well in MWO.

You even ever pilot any OP Clan mechs?

C-Dakka is damage over time, great vs a stationary target, bad vs a moving one. Seriously, go try it. Go drop in a trial Op Clan mech, stream the match and show us your leaderboard winning score because: clantech.

C-Lazors, You omitted MOAR HEAT. You also omitted the fact that even though the C-weapons are better in general, IS quirks make up the difference and was intended to create 'roles' for otherwise identical mechs.

C-LRMs are pretty inferior. IS are volley fire, and the mechs quirked to use them have WAY better cooldowns. How many C-LRM boats do you see other than Vultures and the odd Jenner llC? Yeah...very OP.

Clan and IS tech are pretty balanced now compared to Invasion where Clans were obviously OP, and the Quirkening where Clans had little chance vs Stalker Lazer Walls, SPL Firestarters, Thunderbolts with ERPPC quirks that made 2ERPPCs a quick fire AC20 with a 600m range at half heat and with great velocity, Oxides that could core an assault in about 7 seconds, etc.

Plus it was just recently Clans got mechs with high hardpoints, a decent light mechs, and mechs without gorilla arms that burn the ground.

All in all, Clan ans IS are the most balanced they have ever been. Weapons arent even the balance point.

The main balance point is C-XL engines and C-DHS.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 18 September 2016 - 08:02 PM, said:

Streaming Clan autocannons are better than their corresponding pinpoint single-shell IS versions?

On PTS they are.