257 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

BLOOD WOLF, on 23 October 2016 - 01:29 AM, said:

I don't agree that the build would be dead, then again I dont know.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

ED is just a fix for laser boating that arrived after laser boating was surpassed by other things.

[Livaria]

It's not for laser boating... It's for alpha damage. If it was for laser boating it would disproportionately disfavor only lasers, but this involves a *lot* of weapons

Edited by Livaria, 23 October 2016 - 11:08 AM.

[Mystere]

The6thMessenger, on 23 October 2016 - 02:27 AM, said:

In war, nobody is right, only who's left.

Which is why in games with asymmetric factions, you should have game modes and scenarios that make balance issues between these same factions largely irrelevant by using other means of controlling balance (i.e. numbers, victory conditions, etc.) and preferably dynamically and data-driven.

[Snowbluff]

Wintersdark, on 23 October 2016 - 10:48 AM, said:

After all, remember 3PV, and how totally freaked out we all were? And how it totally destroyed the game? Yup.

I like the cut of your jib.

[Mystere]

Red Shrike, on 23 October 2016 - 04:01 AM, said:

When I tried ED on the PTS, I couldn't understand any of it.
So I'll wait until I've played 10 matches on the live server with ED before I decide whether or not it's the end of the world as we know it.

There is an inherent risk on PGI's part, though, if they decide to do it that way. It could be fatal.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Maybe because Energy Draw doesn't exist in the battletech universe period?

[Alteran]

BLOOD WOLF, on 22 October 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

The problem with holding this view is that ED did in fact do what it needed to do.

I'll focus on this one point, because I've asked it in the ED forum and to me it's still not exactly clear. What is ED supposed to do?

From what I have read in the ED forum it's supposed to:

1) Eliminate the Alpha Strike
2) Enforce a limited amount of damage in a single strike every 1.5 seconds
3) Reinforce a mixed load-out of weapons on Mechs
4) Simplify the 'rules' of heat management so it's easier for new players to understand

Am I missing anything? If so please listed it in a response.

So my reply to this is:

1) No it doesn't Eliminate or Reduce the Alpha Strike. You can Alpha Strike with every weapon on your Mech, but you'll have a massive heat penalty. Performing successive Alpha's before your heat reaches ZERO will probably result in Engine damage and blowing yourself up. Otherwise, as long as you let your heat ZERO out, you'll be able to perform an INSTA-GIBBLE shot regardless of the mechanics put into place.

2) ED on the current PTS limits your strike to about 30pts before a heat penalty kicks in. Is that damage amount too much or too little? I don't know, there isn't a clear opinion or objective put forth by PGI. IMO ED is just doing what most people are trying to do now in Live, limit your damage output so you contibute consistent DPS on the battlefield.

3) Fails to do so. People are going to run what they are used to. Enough said there.

4) IMO fails to do so. If it did, then Energy would be listed right under Heat in the weapons description. Then players could mix and match Firing Groups to maximize damage output. Searching the MWO game files for these numbers is not easy nor does it make it transparent.

If people want to really test this system, it needs to be put on LIVE for even a weekend so people can give real feedback about this purposed system. Otherwise, this system will be put into place, in a system that is being propped up by a couple dozen people.

I, as a individual on the PTS, that tested ED am not in support of going forward with ED as it stands now on the PTS. The ED system needs to have real objectives that it's supposed to meet and succeed at, and support true transparency for the individual player to understand. Otherwise it's just GH 2.0 which doesn't do us a damn thing.

[Kaptain]

Wintersdark, on 23 October 2016 - 10:48 AM, said:

God forbid we not get rabid about it. The horror! Must be STRONG in our convictions, even if we don't actually know what's going to happen!

After all, remember 3PV, and how totally freaked out we all were? And how it totally destroyed the game? Yup.

I would argue that it was the outrage at the announcement 3PV was going to become a thing (despite promises otherwise) the prevented PGI from implementing it in a OP state. Had the community not reacted we would probably have a 3PV that is even more of a wall/hill cheat than it already is.

[Kin3ticX]

BLOOD WOLF, on 22 October 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

Its not obvious to some people why ED is winning the tide of change. ED's objective was to plug the loopholes allowed by the previous heat scale system. For those still going around acting as if there are not plainly demonstrable reasons why ED is better than the older system is simple. It is empirically demonstrates that builds that were able to escape penalty can not do so under the new system. It is a umbrella system that catches all, not just same type weapon groups.

You have to demonstrate this is not the case by valid evidence. Asserting that it failed or its bad tells nobody anything about the system. They have been taking data from the test servers, that is all. The test servers now are probably not in use at the moment, because the ED system as it seems has already satisfied the conditions of testing. Unless their is a weapon combination or something that it does not catch, and once again by demonstration.

I remember watching a video by somebody who ranted against the ED system and not once did they demonstrate the validity of their claims. Stop complaining that the PTS pop is not their and get a group going. Nobody goes in their without a group anymore, especially after a long period of it being out.

Demonstrate you claims when it comes to empirical knowledge that can be tested. Otherwise there is no good reason for anyone to take what you say as facts without Bias.

lol, no

PGI has gone silent on power draw for at least 1 1/2 months. Its not popular enough to be on PTS without getting crapped on en masse. This is what happens when something is getting shelved.

but dont take my word for it, here is a new poll posted on reddit
http://mwomercs.com/...ke-energy-draw/
https://www.reddit.c...ergy_draw_poll/

The main reason it has failed is because its a power bar within a power bar. The heat bar is essentially a power bar in reverse. Not only is the power used to calculate how much penalty heat you take in but its also a heat bar bottleneck/choke. Maybe players havent realized this now but when they do it will only accumulate more hatred over time. This is because there are lot of players thinking it will not touch their special snowflake builds, yet will **** over meta players. They are wrong, it touches everyone bigtime.

The 2nd reason it will fail is because the 30 pt limit is not going to work for all classes and especially across the 300+ variants in the game.

The 3rd reason is that for it to make any sense whatsover the power draw has to = the weapon damage. Fudge factoring the numbers could patch it up some but it also simultaneously makes it more of a mess for players.

The 4th reason is that since the heat bar is already a power bar, then it means the problem can be solved with only 1 bar and not 2.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 23 October 2016 - 11:28 AM.

[Simbacca]

All ED does is add more complications to an already steep learning curve.

While Ghost heat - while hated did help to temper back in the day high alphas (6 PPC Stalker) - running everything through the heat scale makes more sense and easier for the player to keep track of. Mechwarrior has always been about heat.

Changing how heat works would help, but it is only ONE PART of the solution. The other parts include: convergence, weapons modules (which allows stacking of range + refresh rate with mech's quirks) instead of weapon brands<-better choice, and the mech quirk system.

Edited by Simbacca, 23 October 2016 - 11:37 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 23 October 2016 - 03:49 AM, said:

It doesn't do it well.

For instance, why isn't the "spread" applied to LBX?

LBX naturally provides a spread, but it's counted exactly like an AC10.. and anyone with a clue knows they aren't even in the same boat.

Streaks are not even considered in the spread phenomenon either, (not that they need buffing), but SRMs are not in the same boat as Streaks either.

It's a loose interpretation, plus how do you justify smaller weapons (like the IS SL) not having a smaller value?

It's not fully complete nor comprehensive.

Now to be fair, LBx does not have the same value
It was at launch, much like the 28 Power Draw cUAC20, but it was a mistake.
I think 75% was the default value, much like SRMs


The value is whichever arbitrary number they choose to use. 'draw', or something similar, was the variable. It's like Range, CoolDown or Duration, you can put whichever fitting energy number you feel fits.
Generally equals damage, or modified by a strict multiplier, but you could set the LB10x to draw 2 or the isSL to draw 50.

Wintersdark, on 23 October 2016 - 10:48 AM, said:

God forbid we not get rabid about it. The horror! Must be STRONG in our convictions, even if we don't actually know what's going to happen!

After all, remember 3PV, and how totally freaked out we all were? And how it totally destroyed the game? Yup.

And the outcry is the reason people don't play exclusively in 3PV
It was made to be less effective, and not superior

And it seems I've lost my PTS folder...I had backed up all the weapon iterations too...drat

[Kael Posavatz]

ED was supposed to accomplish six things, three of the stated, three of them not.

stated

1) Close the variously described 'loopholes' and 'work-arounds' in Ghost Heat

2) Be simple and intuitive so as to not be a stumbling block to new players

3) Increase Time-To-Kill (side note, increasing TTK is PGI's second favorite hooby after seeking 'balance')

Unstated

4) Accomplishing 1 was supposed to mean everyone was running/using bracket builds

5) Be less universally reviled than Ghost Heat

6) Be a PR and community success for PGI to point at by accomplishing 1, 2, and 5 (3 would have been really nice but not mandatory, 4 was wishful dreaming)


ED at this point:

1) Sort of accomplished, maybe.

2) Simple and Intuitive was the first casualty of ED PTS-2. I do not anticipate it making a return. The fact that all the stats will now be in the MechLab makes it slightly more user-friendly than Ghost Heat. Call it a mixed success.

3) TTK will increase or decrease depending on whether you or the mech you are brawling overheats first

4) I can sort of see the logic in assuming 4 would be a thing. As a practical matter for a shooter, they are not terribly practical. It would take a lot more than ED to bring this game to a point where true bracket-builds would be desirable.

5)Right now two camps exists, those who love ED and those who hate it. There aren't many who are somewhere between those two points but there are a few. The problem is that by running live-server events during PTS, and refusing to give 'stuff' to people who run PTS (I am not talking about tracking c-bill/exp and exporting to live accounts, but x c-bills, y-MC, z-GXP for running A-matches or B-playtime), means the PTS have almost always had low population. This was bad because it meant we couldn't test it reliably (difficulty in getting matches), and that the majority of exposure has been between 'greatest thing since sliced bread' and 'worst thing since IGP and Ghost Heat' camps on the forums.

6) Because of 5, the community is highly polarized (not something PGI wanted). The fact that so many are outspoken against ED threatens to undermine the goodwill PGI is trying to generate from its playerbase. As it is, PGI is rapidly approaching a point where there is no possibility of a 'win'. If they put in something even a significant minority hate, and are willing to be vocal about, it will continue to build distrust (or at least impair the building of future trust), but if they don't put ED in, a good chunk of the playerbase will view Fall 2016 as 'wasted' development time, much as happened in 2015 in regards to the Great Rebalancing and, especially, InfoWarfare.


Edit: The long break after the last PTS has only given the forumites more time to increasingly polarize the forums. The lack of notification from PGI about the reason for the delay, the future of ED, or just what the heck is going on besides 'wait for MechCon, it will be explained', has not helped to accomplish any of the above. MechCon was over 3-months out the first time I heard it brought up. Seriously, community engagement (or rather a lack thereof) is more of a detriment to #6 than ED itself is.

Edited by Kael Posavatz, 23 October 2016 - 11:56 AM.

[Appogee]

ED tries to make up for the shortfalls in the existing complicated heat mechanic ... by adding a whole new, additional complicated mechanic on top. Unbelievable, but true.

Here's what would be simpler and better to reduce frequent high alphas...

1. Each mech has a power reservoir of some value.
2. Some of the reservoir is used when a weapon is fired. Different amounts for different weapons.
3. The reservoir replenishes at a constant rate.
4. You can only fire a weapon when you have enough power available in the power reservoir.
5. If you try to fire weapons without enough power in the reservoir ... some/all weapons won't fire. (You hear this instead.)

And if we want to make MWO more simlike, then you could also reduce the power reserve when running, using MASC, jump jetting etc. Ie. the more ways you use your fusion reactor, the less energy is available in your power reservoir for firing weapons. Also: if you used all your power reservoir firing alphas, then there's less energy available for running.

We should probably also keep the heat/shutdown mechanic in the game, because this is A BattleTech Game™ allegedly. But we should remove ghost heat, reset and simplify all the heat values, heat sinks and dissipation rates etc.

Edited by Appogee, 23 October 2016 - 12:04 PM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Livaria, on 23 October 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

It's not for laser boating... It's for alpha damage. If it was for laser boating it would disproportionately disfavor only lasers, but this involves a *lot* of weapons

Not many options for high alpha damage unless you're looking at short range brawlers, and I don't think anyone really feels they need to be nerfed. PPFLD and Dakka don't reach really high alphas outside of one mech.

Based on the stated goals of ED its pretty obvious they were thinking of laser boats, its just that their incremental changes have already accomplished that goal.

[Deathlike]

Rouken Vordermark, on 23 October 2016 - 12:05 PM, said:

Based on the stated goals of ED its pretty obvious they were thinking of laser boats, its just that their incremental changes Dartboard of Balance nerfs have already accomplished that goal.

Fixed for you.

[Bud Crue]

Why ED is winning the war:

https://twitter.com/...037405365936128

Delusion?

[Angel of Annihilation]

Mystere, on 22 October 2016 - 04:37 PM, said:

Your assertion is only valid under the assumption that certain builds do need to be punished. Well, I refuse to acknowledge said assumption.

Certain builds do absolutely need to be punished or to use a better word, tonned down and there needs to be a system in place that does it. Unrestricted builds would make this game 100x worse than it is now and that is a fact.

[Deathlike]

Bud Crue, on 23 October 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

Why ED is winning the war:

https://twitter.com/...037405365936128

Delusion?

Obviously the OP is some PGI alt account!



Russ has said things plenty of times that were out of touch with the playerbase before. It wouldn't be the first nor the last.

[Conreg]

Lets ask Mr. Kinney what he thinks about ED (209)!