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Lrm Hate Wtf?


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#81 Evil Goof

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 07:09 PM

View PostTesunie, on 06 December 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:


Can you be any more insulting? Can you add a little more spite into your post? I don't think you've added in as much as you possibly could here... Thanks for your respect for others.

No I am actually riding the line of the Code of Conduct pretty closely here so I don't think I could actually push it any further.

Edited by Evil Goof, 07 December 2016 - 07:10 PM.


#82 Nightbird

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 08:05 PM

LRMs are effective in the lower tiers, and ineffective in the higher tiers. Any complaints about LRMs in higher tier playing is because the team with more LRMers loses.

#83 Insanity09

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 11:07 PM

In my (somewhat limited) experience, there is a major distinction to be made between the players and their methods, and the weapon system itself. Others have said the same earlier in the thread, and elsewhere, but perhaps it bears repeating.

LRMs as a weapon system is an entirely valid choice. They have a fear factor (missile alert) and offer utility not found in any other weapon (indirect fire). Much like streaks, their target lock allows people to hit difficult targets.
Properly used, they are a perfectly good weapon, just like any other.

So, the real problem is the players. Poor teamwork, bad tactics, selfish play, steep learning curve to master, these are all problems that are far from exclusive to LRM users, though I will admit that LRM use seems to lend itself to these problems. But, hate the player, not the game (heh).
That said, as the OP has repeatedly pointed out, constructive criticism is far more healthy for all concerned in the long run.


Long version follows, impatient readers need not bother.
1. Expecting your team to serve you, indeed, nagging them to do so by providing you with locks &/or UAVs, is selfish. Locking your target should always be a standard method (refusing to get locks for any reason is unwise if done out of ignorance, and downright childish and stupid if done out of spite &/or LRM hate), but LRM users should be able and willing to go out and get their own locks (the mech I currently use the most LRMs on has TAG, and I move up with the team).
2. Not bearing your share of the damage load is a big issue, and while it may not be exclusive to missile users (it isn't) it undeniably appears more with LRMs. If a LRMer, or a sniper, as the OP so correctly points out, sits back and fails to take some damage for the team, then that is helping the enemy win more effectively. If you haven't looked already, check the tactics 101 comic thread, https://mwomercs.com...ics-101-comics/ , there is one strip that specifically points out the obvious folly of allowing the enemy to focus their damage on one mech at a time. The solution here seems to be, as the OP and others have said, for the LRM users to move up and be more involved (directly) in the fight, taking some of the damage.
3. Failure to recognize missed shots. I think that many players are not fully aware that if they hit, their cross hairs turns red. This is not a fault of the LRM, it is a fault of a player. No reason to hate just LRM users here.
4. Then there is the common complaint of "it's easy mode". This argument always puzzles me. If it is so easy, that suggests it is also simple to be very effective. If it is effective, why hate it? If it isn't effective, then it clearly isn't all that easy, and moreover, people wouldn't bother with it. I suspect that the venom here is three-fold.
One, people despise being hit when they can't return fire. Victims of LRMs feel powerless in a way that no other weapon can't quite manage; even if you have LRMs yourself you might not be able to return fire (lacking a spotter?). So people hate the weapon, even though it is not truly at fault for the situation.
Two, there is little impetus for LRM users to actually improve their aiming and gameplay. A valid concern, but self correcting if true. Hypothetically, if dedicated LRM players, on average, are less skilled then they will not end up playing at higher tiers, and if others, with "better" methods, improve to those tiers, then they won't have to deal with the LRM users any longer. No problem.
Three, LRMs are easily countered, thus players who rely on them are playing badly and dragging the team down. Suspect logic. Counters: hide, be under cover, ECM, shutting down. 3/4 of that list are effective against other weapons as well, at least to some degree. A skilled &/or well equipped LRM player will remain effective even in the face of those counters, just as, e.g., a skilled brawler remains effective against a tough opponent.
I suspect the real trouble is that LRMs start off very effective, requiring little skill, but quickly lose their value as opponents become more wily. Mastering LRMs to remain effective with them has a VERY steep learning curve, most people struggle and switch to other weapons, so few people can be competitive with LRMs. Again, not a weapon problem, a player problem.

Modern (as in real world) combined arms methods make use of a variety of weapon systems to be more effective on the battlefield than any single system would be. In MWO, LRM's have their place in that, as supporting fire platforms. Supporting fire is a role, or method, not simply a weapon system, LRMs lend themselves to that role, as do sniper methods/weapons. Skilled players, or rather, teams, will find a balance and adapt to use whatever weapons are available to them, throwing an entire weapon system out with the trash is foolish, particularly when that system offers an advantage no other weapon does, in this case, indirect fire. Indirect fire is a tried and true method in real world battle, and it also applies to MWO, like it or not. Too much support and you have an ineffective team. Too little support will also be a different problem.

#84 Lyoto Machida

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 11:57 PM

This thread has inspired me to make an LRM Atlas...brb.

View PostLady A, on 26 November 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:


As I said, I don't mind seeing a little LRM on an Assault - as long as it's a secondary weapon; something to fire off at range as they close with the enemy, or lend fire support in situations where they can't poke out.

What has saddened me a little is repeatedly seeing an 85+ ton mech with 2LPLs and 4MLs sit at the back when the teams are 400m apart, firing off a single LRM10 (or worse, a single LRM5) when they could be both dishing out and absorbing much more damage for the team by getting their lasers and their amply armoured buttocks into the fight.

I mean, are people looking for value for money for every last missile in their loadout before resorting to energy weapons?


It's that exactly...I try to run my bins dry before pushing headlong into the brawl. Then again, it's not very hard to share armor or get up in the mix when I'm usually 250-400m from the enemy.

#85 Ghostrider0067

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 12:20 AM

My two c-bills worth:

I hate to be on the receiving end of an LRM barrage as does any pilot. There's few things more terrifying than to get caught in an area with poor or inadequate cover and have death rained down on you from afar. There's also few things more maddening than to have those far away mechs not close the distance somewhat and help mix it up or watch them be the only surviving members of your war party and get cut to pieces due to builds too focused on missile support.

That said, I'm not an LRMer and don't utilize many platforms that carry missiles but I'm not ignorant to their usefulness in damaging/weakening enemies and the suppression effect they bring. I'm a brawler first and a sniper second. I'm always more than willing to provide locks as I can given the situation and know that those missiles DO help my cause as well as the team in general. So, while I hate them... I appreciate them in kind. It's part of the lore and a legitimate tactic else they wouldn't be in the game at all. You can love them or hate them all you wish but it really changes nothing.

Adapt and overcome or die by the rain of fire.

#86 Commoners

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 02:53 AM

LRMs are an avoidable liability for your team, kind of like playing a dragon. They're a weapon system that relies extremely heavily on the enemy players making positioning mistakes, and anything that relies so heavily on someone else doing something dumb or making critical mistakes isn't a good thing. They are playable, they can perform well, but they are hands down the least optimal (aka the worst) primary weapon system in the game.

Opportunity cost is a reality in this game (and any other games for that matter,) and having any legitimately built mech in the place of a LRM boat gives a team much better odds at winning. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but the only time that LRMs and streaks function better than direct fire weapons is when the player in question has horrible aim and relies on the homing features of said weapons to deal damage that they otherwise wouldn't be dealing.

#87 Tesunie

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 07:35 AM

View Postironnightbird, on 07 December 2016 - 08:05 PM, said:

LRMs are effective in the lower tiers, and ineffective in the higher tiers. Any complaints about LRMs in higher tier playing is because the team with more LRMers loses.


Although I agree with the basis of this, I disagree with the exact implications of your statement.

I think saying "LRMs are more effective against less skilled opponents, and less effective against higher skilled opponents" would be more accurate. Ineffective indicates that LRMs can't work against higher skilled opponents, which I feel is false. However, saying it is less effective I think would be more accurate.

You'll never hear me say "LRMs are the best weapon in the game", but I also will never say "LRMs are the worst weapon in the game" either. It's a highly utility weapon with many diverse uses, leaving it in between those two states. I feel it should never be boated (personal choice) due to it's obvious weaknesses, but as a support or a focus of a mech it can have it's place. I've often placed a single rack or two on my assault mechs, as it provides some reach and indirect fire as I approach the battle. That means I don't hang back till it's out of ammo, but instead it's a weapon used till I have line of sight for my other weapons. I use it to support the team when I otherwise would not be able to. And some damage is better than no damage during that positioning time, or even if it ends up being no damage it may have suppressed an opponent behind cover long enough for me to get into position.

#88 Lily from animove

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 08:04 AM

Quote


Posted Image



ah the sound of lrm's hitting the hill and house next to me in the morning.

lrm's are an efficient way of wasting tonnage. there is avery low niche they truly work in on the higher skills.

Edited by Lily from animove, 08 December 2016 - 08:04 AM.


#89 Blind Baku

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 08:10 AM

View PostCommoners, on 08 December 2016 - 02:53 AM, said:

LRMs are an avoidable liability for your team, kind of like playing a dragon. They're a weapon system that relies extremely heavily on the enemy players making positioning mistakes...

...but the only time that LRMs and streaks function better than direct fire weapons is when the player in question has horrible aim and relies on the homing features of said weapons to deal damage that they otherwise wouldn't be dealing.


I'm going to disagree on these two points, respectfully, because as a whole, you're right.

LRMs (esp CLRM5 or CLRM5As) are light enough to be boat-able on smaller mechs, which have more opportunities to get into better positions.

While I still agree that 9/10 times the direct fire is the better option (I ran an 2CLRM5, 1ML, ECM, MLX a few times just to theory craft it, and 1 PPC, ECM was 9/10 an infinity better build) there are some mechs that just do well, IF you can get them into positions where you can rain and harass.

My aim isn't complete ****, but the 3LRM5A 2MPL shadowcat is a solid in group drops, runs far cooler than either the 2CERPPC or 2CLPL builds so you have more active time where you can be feeding intel, etc. Is it objectively better than? ...generally no, but in the right hands, I'd argue it is.

On larger mechs where tonnage is plentiful... I'd rather have the direct fire pretty much every time, on small, clan mechs sometimes you can make it work.

#90 Ghostrider0067

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 12:34 PM

View PostTesunie, on 08 December 2016 - 07:35 AM, said:


Although I agree with the basis of this, I disagree with the exact implications of your statement.

I think saying "LRMs are more effective against less skilled opponents, and less effective against higher skilled opponents" would be more accurate. Ineffective indicates that LRMs can't work against higher skilled opponents, which I feel is false. However, saying it is less effective I think would be more accurate.


Your version of it is more accurate of an explanation, indeed. People seem to act or believe that LRMs are of no usefulness in any tier above three or something when we know that's not the case at all.

#91 Evil Goof

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 01:25 PM

View PostInsanity09, on 07 December 2016 - 11:07 PM, said:

In my (somewhat limited) experience, there is a major distinction to be made between the players and their methods, and the weapon system itself. Others have said the same earlier in the thread, and elsewhere, but perhaps it bears repeating.

LRMs as a weapon system is an entirely valid choice. They have a fear factor (missile alert) and offer utility not found in any other weapon (indirect fire). Much like streaks, their target lock allows people to hit difficult targets.
Properly used, they are a perfectly good weapon, just like any other.

So, the real problem is the players. Poor teamwork, bad tactics, selfish play, steep learning curve to master, these are all problems that are far from exclusive to LRM users, though I will admit that LRM use seems to lend itself to these problems. But, hate the player, not the game (heh).
That said, as the OP has repeatedly pointed out, constructive criticism is far more healthy for all concerned in the long run.


Long version follows, impatient readers need not bother.
1. Expecting your team to serve you, indeed, nagging them to do so by providing you with locks &/or UAVs, is selfish. Locking your target should always be a standard method (refusing to get locks for any reason is unwise if done out of ignorance, and downright childish and stupid if done out of spite &/or LRM hate), but LRM users should be able and willing to go out and get their own locks (the mech I currently use the most LRMs on has TAG, and I move up with the team).
2. Not bearing your share of the damage load is a big issue, and while it may not be exclusive to missile users (it isn't) it undeniably appears more with LRMs. If a LRMer, or a sniper, as the OP so correctly points out, sits back and fails to take some damage for the team, then that is helping the enemy win more effectively. If you haven't looked already, check the tactics 101 comic thread, https://mwomercs.com...ics-101-comics/ , there is one strip that specifically points out the obvious folly of allowing the enemy to focus their damage on one mech at a time. The solution here seems to be, as the OP and others have said, for the LRM users to move up and be more involved (directly) in the fight, taking some of the damage.
3. Failure to recognize missed shots. I think that many players are not fully aware that if they hit, their cross hairs turns red. This is not a fault of the LRM, it is a fault of a player. No reason to hate just LRM users here.
4. Then there is the common complaint of "it's easy mode". This argument always puzzles me. If it is so easy, that suggests it is also simple to be very effective. If it is effective, why hate it? If it isn't effective, then it clearly isn't all that easy, and moreover, people wouldn't bother with it. I suspect that the venom here is three-fold.
One, people despise being hit when they can't return fire. Victims of LRMs feel powerless in a way that no other weapon can't quite manage; even if you have LRMs yourself you might not be able to return fire (lacking a spotter?). So people hate the weapon, even though it is not truly at fault for the situation.
Two, there is little impetus for LRM users to actually improve their aiming and gameplay. A valid concern, but self correcting if true. Hypothetically, if dedicated LRM players, on average, are less skilled then they will not end up playing at higher tiers, and if others, with "better" methods, improve to those tiers, then they won't have to deal with the LRM users any longer. No problem.
Three, LRMs are easily countered, thus players who rely on them are playing badly and dragging the team down. Suspect logic. Counters: hide, be under cover, ECM, shutting down. 3/4 of that list are effective against other weapons as well, at least to some degree. A skilled &/or well equipped LRM player will remain effective even in the face of those counters, just as, e.g., a skilled brawler remains effective against a tough opponent.
I suspect the real trouble is that LRMs start off very effective, requiring little skill, but quickly lose their value as opponents become more wily. Mastering LRMs to remain effective with them has a VERY steep learning curve, most people struggle and switch to other weapons, so few people can be competitive with LRMs. Again, not a weapon problem, a player problem.

Modern (as in real world) combined arms methods make use of a variety of weapon systems to be more effective on the battlefield than any single system would be. In MWO, LRM's have their place in that, as supporting fire platforms. Supporting fire is a role, or method, not simply a weapon system, LRMs lend themselves to that role, as do sniper methods/weapons. Skilled players, or rather, teams, will find a balance and adapt to use whatever weapons are available to them, throwing an entire weapon system out with the trash is foolish, particularly when that system offers an advantage no other weapon does, in this case, indirect fire. Indirect fire is a tried and true method in real world battle, and it also applies to MWO, like it or not. Too much support and you have an ineffective team. Too little support will also be a different problem.

One of the issues is that there is not a steep learning curve to occasionally pull off high damage or at least spread out damage all over the place. A bad user doesn't actually get that he is not doing well.

Another issue is just like any other weapon in this game, good lrm pilots will either focus on what their other teammates with direct fire weapons are firing on, or if working in a team of lrm' boats they will focus down their own targets. This requires either being close to the back of the main force and a good degree of situational awareness, or someone calling targets/organising the lrm fire (one of them, or have seen narcers that often call) As is evident on this thread there are tons of lurmers who don't do this and think doing this is wrong. One guy insisting on here that optimally he is there at 800m away pushing them off the map...

Funny thing is I actually got to drop with and against OldBob. Hell of a guy. His video is also awesome. If more people running the lurms followed his advice I am sure that the vitriol would be reduced ten fold.

#92 Evilwallofdeath

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 03:03 PM

Lately I've been finding more use for skirmisher type LRM mechs. A really fast Centurian with an LRM20 can get real close and put down some hurt before running. Also been doing a Dragon with a Single LRM10 and some Large pulse lasers. But the key is speed and re-positioning for better firing solutions. Staying at about 200-250 meters is optimal, though on the brawling maps this gets real difficult, so I use the LRM pack as suppression weapon. Even if it's not a lot of LRM, it sets off bitching betty every time.

#93 DevlinCognito

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 03:15 PM

View Postironnightbird, on 07 December 2016 - 08:05 PM, said:

LRMs are effective in the lower tiers, and ineffective in the higher tiers. Any complaints about LRMs in higher tier playing is because the team with more LRMers loses.


So much this.

The trouble with all these threads is people only see their own experience and assume that's all there is to this game, not realising how much the game changes as you progress. Whereas many older players forget that in the lower tiers LRMs are effective at putting out high damage and do work because newer people don't know the maps/don't understand how to negate them as well.

#94 Guile Votoms

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 03:17 PM

There's nothing wrong with LRMs except for cooldowns being too fast, but that applies to almost all weapons.
People just need to learn how to avoid them. If I was able to learn it in less than a month, then so can anyone else.

In my opinion, the only case where LRM complaints are justified is chainfired Clan-LRM5s because you can lock your target down in endless cockpit shake. Unless you have 2 AMS with quirks or modules or you're 1 second away from cover, there's next to nothing you can do except hoping for a teammate to kill or chase the boat away.

Edited by Guile Votoms, 08 December 2016 - 03:19 PM.


#95 Blind Baku

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 03:21 PM

View PostGuile Votoms, on 08 December 2016 - 03:17 PM, said:

...


The general LRM hate being discussed has more to do with "LRMs are terribad, and you should feel bad for using them because you're hurting your team", not "LRMs are OP! NERF Luurrrmms!"

If anything the recent adjustments to cooldown and spread helped make them at least seem more viable.

Edited by Blind Baku, 08 December 2016 - 03:22 PM.


#96 Guile Votoms

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 03:35 PM

The "lrms are bad" argument sounds just as dumb as the "lrms are op" one.
If you know how and when to use them and your team works together they definitely have their place.

Edited by Guile Votoms, 08 December 2016 - 03:44 PM.


#97 Jack Shayu Walker

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 03:54 PM

View PostOldbob10025, on 23 November 2016 - 07:19 PM, said:

1)Well with the only posts you made with a alt account is saying i'm wrong well I guess were not going to agree with anything with personal attacks but thats ok I guess.


Neutral party here. I'm just going to point out that you are not any better. Just because you're backhanded remarks are more passive aggressive does not place you on the moral high ground. You're flinging dookie around, just like he is. Let's not pretend that you don't know that 'you should try Call of Duty instead' will be received as an insult.

View PostOldbob10025, on 23 November 2016 - 07:19 PM, said:

2)Yes I do know what your talking about with being able to translate from a boardgame to a FPS, and in my last points I proved it that history does translate to a FPS but your not understanding but thats ok you can just go on killing team members for playing LRM boats.


Well frankly it does not really translate as you say. While it is true that LRMs have a proper way to be used (suppressing fire for the rest of your team), a player of similar competence using a different weapon system will, barring extremely specific circumstances, always be a larger asset to the team. Now you can still certainly play however you want, but by selecting a less effective build you are not innocent when your team comes up with a loss.

Now if that doesn't bother you, that's great. It doesn't bother me either; I always play whatever mechs I want, because as you've said, it's everybody's game, but I do not try and convince myself that I am putting my team as #1 on my list of concerns. Usually it goes at #3, behind #1: Having fun, and #2 Science! (testing the effectiveness of new builds I theorycraft).

Your teammates are as just as free to not prioritize holding locks as you are free to bring an LRM boat. Now it would be nice of them to help, but sometimes you must consider that it doesn't jive with everyone's usual combat style. As a PPC savant, if I'm under fire, I shoot and then immediately torso-twist or take evasive action. If an enemy is firing at me, and I look at him for more than a second at a time, I'm doing it wrong. And to be clear, I don't usually sit back in the back to do my work (only on Crimson Straight Posted Image) I keep my range dynamic, and I'll even brawl when it's advantageous.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 08 December 2016 - 03:58 PM.


#98 Tesunie

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 06:26 PM

View PostGuile Votoms, on 08 December 2016 - 03:17 PM, said:

In my opinion, the only case where LRM complaints are justified is chainfired Clan-LRM5s because you can lock your target down in endless cockpit shake. Unless you have 2 AMS with quirks or modules or you're 1 second away from cover, there's next to nothing you can do except hoping for a teammate to kill or chase the boat away.


Depending upon distances, a single AMS tends to be able to take down an entire CLRM5 volley, at least from my experience. AMS can take down up to 10 LRMs per volley at the most favorable positions, and 1 or 2 in less favorable positions.

The other countermeasure you can try in your described situation would be to get in close if possible. The closer you are within 180m to CLRMs, the less damage they do. Of course, this is often easier said than done.

Another trick from the old days to avoid some LRMs that are incoming, walk perpendicular to the path the LRMs are coming in from. Many of the LRMs will likely hit the ground still behind you, depending upon your speed. But even an assault can use this trick and avoid at least some of the damage. (It was more successful at one point, but they buffed LRMs. Then again, any mech use to be able to do this trick and avoid all incoming LRMs, even a very slow assault could do it.)

#99 Darkhorse13Golf

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Posted 09 December 2016 - 09:47 PM

View PostEvil Goof, on 05 December 2016 - 11:20 PM, said:

You can argue all you like about meta and boring builds. You can also argue that the sky is purple. You will not be right in either case. If you for a second think that you can effectively with a couple other guys lurm against some of the top players in the game I have an advance copy of MW5 Mercs to sell you...

Not sure why you would think that somehow this is ego. I have also said it is not about following meta to a t, but you simply are not digesting that. Maybe comprehension is not your strong suit. To reiterate for you, I am talking about bringing builds that are competitive and that do not become a detriment to your team. Bringing really stupid things like an lrm Atlas is coming into a match while giving the middle finger to your team.

Am a big fan of Snuggles Time, and his boom Raven. He is however pretty upfront about how many games it takes to get the one he gets to show. There is certainly room for fun builds and messing around. However, what is frustrating is the guys who bring nonsense time after time.

That you throw in your T-bolt build and actually think it is effective in any way means you are pretty much hopeless and I have no idea who it is you are playing against or where this would be effective. Especially running an XL. A pilot with a half decent mech and less skill than yourself would find you an easy target. That is just how it is. You may not like the reality of the mech's hit boxes, but that doesn't make them magically go away.

In short you can argue and hate meta and perhaps throw your hatred of COD players as well. It will not change what is actually effective in the game and what is not. You can always try and make stupid stuff 'work' and every so often you may get a good game (as your team carries you).

Edit. BTW did you see any of the MWO World Championships? Did you notice not one of the team had a single lurmer...hmmm, interesting huh?


Actually that Tbolt build has been quite effective in PUG play or I wouldn't have cited it. So if I can make that hopeless build pump out enough damage to be useful is it a bad build or just because you feel you couldn't run it well you arrogantly proclaim it's terrible?

#100 BlueFlames

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Posted 09 December 2016 - 11:33 PM

View PostDarkhorse13Golf, on 09 December 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

Actually that Tbolt build has been quite effective in PUG play or I wouldn't have cited it.

There's a missile system that offers better synergy with medium pulse lasers than LRMs.

I mean, the sweet spot, where you can deal maximum damage with both MPLs and LRMs--charitably assuming you're using the 9SE, with its 10% energy range quirk--is a 62m window between 180m and 242m (84m window out to 264m w/ an MPL range module). That's not good. You're always going to be in a situation where one of your weapon systems is suboptimal or useless. Whether or not you consistently put up good numbers with that build, it could be better.

It's also worth noting that there's a lot of overlap between "not terrible" or "good in the pug queue" and "could be (lots) better."

Edited by BlueFlames, 09 December 2016 - 11:36 PM.






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