391 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Tarogato, on 15 December 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

*pulls up his spreadsheet tool that looks up values from the Quickplay Leaderboards*

*glances at the naming and shaming clause in the Code of Conduct*

*snickers and walks away*

I love it.

This problem is getting blown out of proportion. We don't need crazy new tech or massive landslide changes. It's much simpler than that. Remember when IS mechs were actually outperforming Clan mechs? So why not try repealing some of their nerfs? It's very easy to realize this is the best solution. The best Clan mechs don't have quirks, so its not like you can nerf their quirks, and blanket nerfs are a bad, so the solution is simple.... give IS mechs some of their quirks back.

BUT, of course this won't happen because the SKILL TREE is coming, a brand new balancing mechanic! I'm sure it will fix everything.

Natred, on 15 December 2016 - 07:24 AM, said:

2 grasshoppers killing me in one alpha in my shadow cat from full health whIle moving perpendicular to them by hitting me ct halfway through their laser burn must be underpowered while using my masc. Nope not overpowered. Or maybe they were just pro level pilots.

LOL.

I one shot a Locust in a STD engine MAD-IIC last night.

BOOM your irrefutable evidence has been somehow refuted! Light the beacons!

[M A N T I S]

Tahawus' interpretation and analysis on these numbers is correctly done, and is performed on a set of data that is as objective as we can expect here.

There is a big problem in that many top performers are not in this comparison: the ebon jaguar, timberwolf, black knight, grasshoppers to name a few. Also, the kodiak numbers are pre-nerf I believe. The methodology is sound but completeness lacking. I'd reserve making a conclusion until you have more of a complete set available.

This is the only thing in this thread that is accurate and objective in any way, so thank you very much for your efforts.

[Graugger]

Yeah try getting CT one shotted in your front loaded mauler by a MAD-IIC.

A Mauler that could solo Kodiaks before Clan whiners got them nerfed... oh wait IT STILL CAN. NEEDZ MOAR NERF PGI!

[xe N on]

nehebkau, on 15 December 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:

Just to reiterate my point:

Want instant balance?

Make IS XL engines behave EXACTLY the same as Clan XL engines. EXACTLY THE SAME!

fun with big fonts -- because the bigger you write it the more truthful it is

THIS WILL NOT SOLVE ALL BALANCE PROBLEMS!

MY HBK-IIC-A RUNS A STD ENGINE AND ROCKS WITH 6xC-ERML!!!11

Edited by xe N on, 15 December 2016 - 08:59 AM.

[Big Tin Man]

Spider00x, on 15 December 2016 - 02:40 AM, said:

For christ sakes we had those weight class leader board challenge data for MONTHS.

Link to said data: https://mwomercs.com...sts-are-op-but/

Yes, there have been some balance changes since then. Yes, an organized experienced 12 man will roll pugs regardless of IS or Clan. While it is possible for IS to beat clans in FW, the IS is hurt by the accessibility of un-optimized IS mechs to new players with a low entry cost. Clan mechs are behind a c-bill wall, but they are solid right out of the box.

The simple fix FW needs to eliminate pug stomping:

For scouting, must be tier 4 or better with 100 games played
For invasion, must be tier 3 or better with 200 games played

That alone would probably do it. Eliminate pug stomping by eliminating pugs. The game needs some experience gates to stop pugs from wrecking the hardcore game mode by filling one side with a disproportionate amount of inexperienced pilots. I know I'd play solo FW more if I knew I was only going to get tier 3 and better pilots, and not someone with 4 trial mechs in a dropdeck. I know PGI doesn't like the idea of locking game modes behind a grind, but it is quite frankly necessary.

Other options to achieve FW balance include:

Cut clan dropdeck weight to 235 (or further), which eliminates the 2 KDK deck option. Would have a greater effect than buffing IS to 265.

The Steamroller rule:
Per lore, as the clanners win successive FW windows, cut drop deck weight 5 tons for each win greater than 2 because clearly they didn't need to bid that high. This would reduce the steamroller effect, and LORE. I.E. Clans win EU and NA prime time, cut 5 tons. If they win Oceanic next, cut another 5. Keep cutting until the winning streak is broken. Once the steak is broken, add 10 back. Consecutive losses will add 10 tons back until they reach the original max deck weight.

[Graugger]

There's some word going around that the devs are looking into removing the warlog to quite some of the QQing, maybe things will balance out then.

[feeWAIVER]

Clan is ezmode in FP.
Ebon Jag firing lines for first couple waves. Aim at those slow assault/heavy shoulders and punish the IS for having the audacity to bring comparable firepower.

Finish with streak dogs to skillfully remove anyone dumb enough to bring a light.


I have a good team, and I win in FP every night.
But all of our numbers are greatly inflated when we go clan.

I think balancing XL engines would go a long way.
Bringing out IS streak6's would also be more fair.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 15 December 2016 - 09:44 AM.

[Count Zero 74]

#BlameTheMechsAndNotThePlayers

[AlphaToaster]

I wanted to add that the clan bulldozing the IS graphic in the video was brilliant. I watched the whole video and thought the arguement was presented very well. (10/10)

Allowing mixed tech would solve the balance problem but it would remove that look and feel of faction warfare which is really the primary attraction for the mode. LFE is probably a no-go from the Marketing standpoint. PGI would have trouble selling another IS mech without a LFE and players would demand new mechs released with them or cry foul.

We might be better off as someone suggested and remove IS XL ST death if PGI refuses to advance the tech level.

Edited by AlphaToaster, 15 December 2016 - 09:54 AM.

[Jman5]

FallingAce, on 15 December 2016 - 03:14 AM, said:

You forgot the breakdown of the MWO World Championships Finals

EMP 1 grasshopper
Eon 1 grasshopper 2 spiders

12 clan vs 4 I.S.

MWOC had to use an old build from May. The Night Gyr came onto the scene later and then tore up the Heavy Leaderboard. I have little doubt that if they were allowed to use it, they would have.

[iliketurtles87]

great video.i hope PGI is going to watch it.

thank you dane

[ShiftySWP and the Pleated Pants]

Graugger, on 15 December 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

There's some word going around that the devs are looking into removing the warlog to quite some of the QQing, maybe things will balance out then.

LOL if thats true.....

Its not like you cant look at the BIG BLUE BAR on the screen driving full left in under 2 hours of every attack phase.......

[Tarogato]

Jman5, on 15 December 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

The Night Gyr came onto the scene later and then tore up the Heavy Leaderboard. I have little doubt that if they were allowed to use it, they would have.

Keep in mind that the Night Gyr scores are also slightly dubious, as they were measured at a different time from all the other heavies, and were combined from per-variant leaderboards, unlike all the other heavy chasses.

[Kin3ticX]

Clans have the best mechs but I agrue in the case of CW balance its mostly players doing terrible in the mechlab and even worse on the battlefield.

[RaptorCWS]

Big Tin Man, on 15 December 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

Link to said data: https://mwomercs.com...sts-are-op-but/

Yes, there have been some balance changes since then. Yes, an organized experienced 12 man will roll pugs regardless of IS or Clan. While it is possible for IS to beat clans in FW, the IS is hurt by the accessibility of un-optimized IS mechs to new players with a low entry cost. Clan mechs are behind a c-bill wall, but they are solid right out of the box.

The simple fix FW needs to eliminate pug stomping:

For scouting, must be tier 4 or better with 100 games played
For invasion, must be tier 3 or better with 200 games played

That alone would probably do it. Eliminate pug stomping by eliminating pugs. The game needs some experience gates to stop pugs from wrecking the hardcore game mode by filling one side with a disproportionate amount of inexperienced pilots. I know I'd play solo FW more if I knew I was only going to get tier 3 and better pilots, and not someone with 4 trial mechs in a dropdeck. I know PGI doesn't like the idea of locking game modes behind a grind, but it is quite frankly necessary.

Other options to achieve FW balance include:

Cut clan dropdeck weight to 235 (or further), which eliminates the 2 KDK deck option. Would have a greater effect than buffing IS to 265.

The Steamroller rule:
Per lore, as the clanners win successive FW windows, cut drop deck weight 5 tons for each win greater than 2 because clearly they didn't need to bid that high. This would reduce the steamroller effect, and LORE. I.E. Clans win EU and NA prime time, cut 5 tons. If they win Oceanic next, cut another 5. Keep cutting until the winning streak is broken. Once the steak is broken, add 10 back. Consecutive losses will add 10 tons back until they reach the original max deck weight.

Who in their right mind is running 2 kodiaks in their drop deck? sure if everything goes well its no big deal that you have 2 light mechs. but if things go wrong. you are at a major disadvantage for 2 waves. My unit has completely cut out the use of the kodiak in our drop decks. much rather run timbers, ebon jags, night gyrs, summoners, hellbringers, and now MADD-IIC

Edited by RaptorCWS, 15 December 2016 - 10:40 AM.

[Jman5]

Kin3ticX, on 15 December 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

Clans have the best mechs but I agrue in the case of CW balance its mostly players doing terrible in the mechlab and even worse on the battlefield.

You can make this argument on a case by case basis, but from a population standpoint things should be averaging out. Over the thousands of active players in this game, there should be a roughly equal number of derps who can't build mechs on the clan side as there are on the IS side. There should be rough equivalence of competent builders on the IS side as the clan side.

When the averages are skewing one way pretty consistently it indicates some deeper problem(s) where something is causing your average derp to derp harder in the IS camp than he does in the Clan camp.

It's open to interpretation why. Is it easier to fail in the mechlab for an IS mech? Is it mech/tech imbalance? Are there simply more bad IS mechs in the game than Clans? There is probably no one reason. Just a series of small reasons that on an individual or even team basis Inner Sphere can overcome, but on a large scale population basis it creates problems. Especially since thats how Faction Play territory gains work.

[Obelus]

Agreed with the video except for the proposed solution. My preference would be to have the Clans and IS balanced in a some way that still gives us two unique factions.

Possible Example:

If the Clans are generally faster, more versatile, and have better ranged weapons then IS could be slightly tanky-er and have better short ranged weapons. Something where you buff some facet of IS capabilities to help them compete.

[Big Tin Man]

Jman5, on 15 December 2016 - 11:03 AM, said:

It's open to interpretation why. Is it easier to fail in the mechlab for an IS mech? Is it mech/tech imbalance? Are there simply more bad IS mechs in the game than Clans? There is probably no one reason. Just a series of small reasons that on an individual or even team basis Inner Sphere can overcome, but on a large scale population basis it creates problems. Especially since thats how Faction Play territory gains work.

It is significantly easier to purchase an IS mech at the start. Then once you buy it, you don't realize you need to throw down another 6-12 million to get DHS, endo, and an engine before you are a lukewarm potato, or even potentially competent. Clan's build that all into the price, so you can't start at full cold potato level.

This is why there needs to be an experience check for FW. 100 games to scout, 200 games for invasion. Tier 4+ and 3+ respectively as well. Keep the noobs away until they learned a bit from QP.

[MischiefSC]

Mech The Dane, on 15 December 2016 - 02:47 AM, said:

That's understandable.
It's only the solution that I think would work best - that is just my opinion. As long as we can get beyond the stupid back and forth where blame is improperly placed on the pugs or players and instead focus on the tech and the incentives to use that tech we can all hopefully start on the path to repairing the glaring issues with this game mode.

Great video, stuff that we've all known but just sort of ignored for 2 years. Well, it's at a boiling point.

Back in CW1 everyone started going Clan because Clan tech easy better. Over cw2 and 3 that trickle continued, going merc and mostly playing Clan. We went from 3 IS to 1 Clan player or more to almost all active units (loyalist or merc) playing in Clans.

Nobody wants to always play at a disadvantage and the pug population... well, you know how it is. I played and won 10 matches on IS side yesterday. However at the time we were playing those 10 matches were 50% of the total IS wins in that CF, or close to. That's been the case since CW1- ask Kurita, it's why they attacked Davion. They could win every drop on Clan front but bad pugs would go lose faster than they could win.

There is always the idea of "just play better". That's been the rallying cry of people wanting to keep Clan tech OP since it was released. Well, why not play better *and have better tech*?

Don't mess with adding new tech. Forcing every IS player to re-buy all their XLS just to have balanced tech is goofy. Pull the trigger, make IS XL work like Clan XL, give STDs a structure bonus. Then you can unlock Clan Omnimechs, just don't give them quirks like Battlemechs get.

Without this fundamental balance we're just going to continue the bleed. Being an IS loyalist is stupid and stubborn, just disadvantaging yourself for a lore that PGI made irrelevant in FW 4.1.

Either balance IS to Clan, 1 to 1 as PGI said they would at Clans release or accept every unit and vet player will end up in Clans, farming pugs stuck in cheaper IS tech.

[Kin3ticX]

Jman5, on 15 December 2016 - 11:03 AM, said:

You can make this argument on a case by case basis, but from a population standpoint things should be averaging out. Over the thousands of active players in this game, there should be a roughly equal number of derps who can't build mechs on the clan side as there are on the IS side. There should be rough equivalence of competent builders on the IS side as the clan side.

When the averages are skewing one way pretty consistently it indicates some deeper problem(s) where something is causing your average derp to derp harder in the IS camp than he does in the Clan camp.

It's open to interpretation why. Is it easier to fail in the mechlab for an IS mech? Is it mech/tech imbalance? Are there simply more bad IS mechs in the game than Clans? There is probably no one reason. Just a series of small reasons that on an individual or even team basis Inner Sphere can overcome, but on a large scale population basis it creates problems. Especially since thats how Faction Play territory gains work.

I think omnitech makes it super easy for clans to make good dropdecks

On the IS side I think its probably easier to make a ****** dropdeck.

I think the roleplay special snowflake stock mech grognards also dwell in the inner recesses of the Inner Sphere.