391 replies to this topic

[Major0103]

Great video and much needed. At last someone put together all the data and proved what every IS pilot knew from the day one in FP. Yes, no XL disadvantage, lighter and harder hitting equipment, harder hitting, speed, less bulky, non typical geometries and everything multiplied 12 times, accounts for a huge imbalance in favour of clanners. However, lets think about it in a little wider perspective.

What is FP about?

It is about the clan invasion. And clans are expected to be superior and overwhelming. And they can be pushed back only with the extreme and coordinated effort of IS. Actually, FP exposes this element, well, mercilessly. In fact, it excels in bringing in the horror and misery of clan invasion.

...so why are we unhappy?

Because it's a computer online game, and we want it to be fair. We crave for a chance to win, based on our skills, not the tech-tree we choose. Unfortunately, the balance is blatantly at odds with the IS vs Clans war. This contradiction lies in the very core of the FP experience.

How can we solve it?

The other side of this problem is that PGI built a game mode around the highly imbalanced tech, but refused to counterbalance it with a game mode design. So what are the options?

• As Dane suggests, allow mixed clan/IS tech on both sides: the simplest solution, but deadly to the flavour of clan vs IS war.
  
• non-equal team numbers (e.g 10 vs 12): this is the TT solution, vehemently rejected by PGI. I understand that it could cause some serious technical problems, but this would be at least a lore-friendly solution. It also saves the flavour of clans superiority (and even makes a room to buff them here and there) and keeps the game mode design close to what it is right now.
  
• Serious tech change: My first candidate for this is the XL engine. The fatal side torso destruction worked perfectly within the pure IS tech (a clean trade-off: more fire-power for fragility), but it's too serious a vice against the clans. I've also read somewhere on this forum that the deliberate piercing of side torso in TT was extremely difficult, so this is a kind of artefact related to the computer-game. We could get rid of this.
  
• Highly asymmetrize game mode design and goals for clans and IS, so it counterbalances the tech. Simple example: to get the omega exposed clanners have to destroy two distant generators simultaneously (not one by one). This forces clanners to separate in at least 2 groups, but IS can focus all their effort on defending just one gen. Another example: during the invasion clanners must also intercept an escaping messenger (which means that at least a few of them must detach from the main forces), otherwise IS gets e.g. a supporting Long Tom shot. I'm sure we can come up with dozens of such solutions, which would effectively break the 12 vs 12 scheme.

The last one is my favourite, but since it requires much invention and the reworking of entire game mode, I doubt to see it. What do you think about it?
EDIT: One more solution, PGI brings in the IS omnimechs, on par with clanners. This is quite possible since it goes along with their business model...

Edited by Major0103, 16 December 2016 - 04:04 AM.

[Drunk Canuck]

AnTi90d, on 15 December 2016 - 05:43 AM, said:

I agree with everything up to the 12 minute mark.. but I vehemently disagree with your conclusion that IS factions should be allowed to run Clan mechs. Russler already gutted our faction identities, now you advocate the gutting of all IS tech from FP dropdecks.. (not that FP is fun, anymore, that we're forced to play Quickplay poking-maps on garbage Quickplay modes..)

Before anything as drastic as this, I'd rather see an easy-to-add update of LightFusion Engines for the IS (2 crit slots / torso and right in between XL and Standard weight for the rating) and XXL Engines for the Clans (4 crit slots / torso and 17% lighter than ClanXL Engines,) with additional balance changes from the new (non-Paul) balance overlord.

Although there is no amount of rebalancing that will really account for weapon mount height.. and there is no easy fix for that.. as any changes would require a lot of work on PGI's part.. like recoding arms to toggle between at-sides-position and raised-forward position.. or moving weapon mounts higher on the mechs.. or giving severely underperforming mechs more hardpoints.


To be completely honest, weapon mounts don't always make a Mech good. Well, certain weapon positions make them pretty bad actually, the Gargoyle and Executioner are a prime example of that, and PGI balanced the Warhawk by making it's arms closer to the waist rather than up at chest height like they are in the original concept art. The Dire Wolf has pretty low mounted arms, but they are relative to it's height, so they are not nearly as bad as some of the taller Clan assaults. And honestly, nerfing mounts on Clan Mech's would require far more Mech redesign than is worth even attempting, not to mention a lot of Clan weapons would have to be unnerfed in order to compensate for the weapon mount nerfs, and that is the last thing you want to do as well, since it's the weapons coupled with a number of different factors that make Clans imbalanced.

If anything, I'd be reducing the damage that Clan weapons do, in particular the Clan Large Pulse Laser, which was nerfed on the test server but never brought to live for some reason. Smaller Clan lasers do more damage than they should but I would assume that the ER SL and SPL do more because the IS versions were buffed a long time ago because they never saw play due to low damage output and range. Nerfing Clan UAC damage could be as simple as removing one shell from the salvo (though UAC2's aren't all that strong).

But better players + better tech choices are two of the worst combinations to balance against. IS tech should have been advanced by now, and a few weapons introduced to Clans like ATM's and Heavy Lasers. It is impossible to balance the so few weapons IS has versus the many that Clans have. IS have some great weapons down the timeline that would make them competitive. Light Gauss, UAC2/10/20, Streak 4/6, ER ML/SL.

Edited by Drunk Canuck, 15 December 2016 - 05:28 PM.

[Vincent Quatermain]

Mech The Dane, on 15 December 2016 - 04:32 AM, said:

Your personal experiences are of extremely limited value against larger datasets.

Assuming that your data tells the whole story, which it doesn't. More on that below . . .

Mech The Dane, on 15 December 2016 - 04:32 AM, said:

And what drives the skill level difference? Why are all the competitive teams in the clans right now? What is the drive that got them there? It didn't just happen.

Yes, it's due to the Mech of the Month being a Clan Mech.

To be fair, that's just why it is so extreme at the moment. The real imbalance is not due to the mercs. They move around, because they play both sides and want to find matches. The imbalance is that IS loyalists have drifted away at a faster rate than Clan loyalists. Is that due to a tech gap, or a skill gap?

*****

Here is where your argument falls into serious problems. All of your data deals with ranking of individual chassis or MRBC matches where one mistake is all you get. In a group with drop decks, tech does not matter as much. The two sides have different optimal play styles -- Clans should skirmish, IS should brawl. On defense, this should tip the scales to the IS. But it doesn't. Why? Because most MWO players (regardless of the mech or faction) are timid little snowflakes who don't know how to push.

Timid peek-a-boo playstyles are inherently safer for the Clans. As a result, Clans are easier to play. Now we could just keep widening the tonnage gap until IS Loyalists quit whining.

However, that will create an entirely new balance problem. The amount of drop weight needed to compensate for timid players will make an agressive IS team completely unstoppable. Maybe PGI should do that though. Let's push the drop deck size for IS up until IS brawl teams start running roughshod over everyone. Maybe that will shift the meta . . . but let's be honest, a lot of the IS players who are QQing about balance are LRM potatowarriors. There is no amount of balance that will ever make those players good.

Your mixed tech idea would technically solve this problem, but won't satisfy the lore fanatics -- who are often the same people crying about IS/Clan balance. It's a no win situation.

Edited by Vincent Quatermain, 15 December 2016 - 05:29 PM.

[nehebkau]

^^ - the "Git Gud" defense.

The XL engine change would provide a HUGE boost to IS.
For example, a Thurnderbolt 5SS would go from a short range brawler with a 42 alpha to a short and med-long range brawler with 57 Alpha. How would the loadout change? It would go from 6 mpls (std engine) to 3lpls + 3 mpls + 7 kph (XL engine). That doesn't seem like a big change but it is -- completely boosts the utility of the mech.

Edited by nehebkau, 15 December 2016 - 05:38 PM.

[TiguriusX]

The only time I the IS had an advantage was the great TDR quirkening

Please refresh my memory as to how the clan faction players responded.

Did the clan players rise up and show it was skill that kept them at the top? Or was that when the clan population evaporated?

Edited by TiguriusX, 15 December 2016 - 05:42 PM.

[Aiden Skye]

Looks like more blanket nerfs coming for all clans mechs. And the crap clan mechs will just sink lower into the mire. But hey, who cares as long as the top performers and meta builds are brought down.

[Alteran]

Wow, right back to the same conversations about Tech balance from 2 years ago.

The Tech's were never supposed to be balanced. The balance came in the number of IS mechs to take down a single Clan mech - 3:1 at best, sometimes 4:1.

Blah, blah, blah nerf this, nerf that, buff IS everything, give tonnage advantages..... All the same stuff said for the last two years.

PGI won't balance the Techs in this fashion. You can't, because they were never supposed to be.

If PGI won't use numbers of mechs to balance ie: 48 IS mechs vrs 16 Clan mechs, then you've got to do the dirty and completely balance the Techs.

No IS ML, no Clan ERML and MPL - there are ML, ERML and a MPL that both sides can use. No IS XL engine, no Clan XL engine, just XL engines. They all act and work the same.

Open up all the Mechs so they can be completely customized. Engine, weapons, armor, structure, heat sinks etc...

Just be done with it already. Let us then queue up with exactly the same techs and have at it. It's the only way.

[MischiefSC]

M A N T I S, on 15 December 2016 - 04:40 PM, said:

What I'm trying to tell you is that this is patently false, though. I play both sides, and prefer IS. I've had success on both sides.

Except that you're patiently wrong. Beyond the opinions of various comp players and FW top performing teams and mechs used in comp play plus all the telemetry PGI has released on IS v Clan balance there's the mechanics of how FW has played out for 2 years.

Again. Really simple.

CXL always works. Good or bad players. Fast burn IS LPLS and PPFLD only helps players who can aim. That's the super simple version. As has been stated elsewhere 99% of comp players and "Comp FW" teams have said this and been saying it since CW 1.

[Pariah Devalis]

W A R K H A N, on 15 December 2016 - 05:48 PM, said:

Looks like more blanket nerfs coming for all clans mechs. And the crap clan mechs will just sink lower into the mire. But hey, who cares as long as the top performers and meta builds are brought down.

From some tweets Russ made, earlier, he seems more skewed towards the idea of lowering Clan drop weight to compensate for the higher population of t1 pilots in the Clan side of things - or rather, there are 25% more T1 pilots who use Clan mechs, which, while tier 1 doesn't necessarily mean you're skilled, truly bad pilots are unlikely to get that far.

Two things about that: One, it's good that he rather mess with drop weight over needlessly nerfing things on a global scale, since the bad mechs become worse every time that happens, and for no good reason. Two, he sideways admitted here, as he did during the Tukkayyid events, that the skill of the average Clan pilot is greater than the average IS pilots. IIRC, during the Elo days, Clan pilots tended to have a higher average score there as they do now under PSR.

Now, about that. It could be a loop that reinforces that. That is to say, if the Clan mechs are just so much easier to perform well over IS mechs, it would cause the average Clan pilot to naturally tend to gain statistical benefits over the average IS pilot. This would mean that the superiority of Clan mechs leads to average clan players that, on paper, seem more skilled than the average IS pilot, even if this was untrue.

I will say that the baseline potato level pilots might benefit unfairly due to the mechanics of Clan SSRM launchers. No need to aim, just line up and spray. Effective as hell against an enemy that cannot aim. Significantly less threatening against an enemy who can. It could inflate the statistics and tier of potato grade Clan pilots as compared to their similar IS potatos.

On the other hand, it could also really mean that right now there are actually better Clan pilots, on a technical, actual level than what the IS pilots are offering. On average, that is. Clans then continue to win overwhelmingly because of better pilots, but because the Clans keep winning it could be falsely attributed to "tech" when it is a "skill" thing.

In reality, it's usually somewhere in between both extremes. Likely, there's a bit of both going on. Artificial inflation of statistics and tiers, particularly in the lower tier of pilots, in addition to legitimately high skill pilots in the higher tiers.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 15 December 2016 - 06:12 PM.

[MischiefSC]

W A R K H A N, on 15 December 2016 - 05:48 PM, said:

Looks like more blanket nerfs coming for all clans mechs. And the crap clan mechs will just sink lower into the mire. But hey, who cares as long as the top performers and meta builds are brought down.

Horrible, worse possible solution.

Balance engines. Balance IS and Clan tech, unlock Omnimechs. Quit trying to quirk/nerf to fix bad fundamental designs.

The current system isn't trying to balance apples to apples, it's trying to balance apples and who's singing the national anthem at the Super Bowl next year. Hence the perpetual WTF on balancing.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Pariah Devalis, on 15 December 2016 - 06:04 PM, said:

[snip]

Its good to hear that Russ isn't trying to make any hasty and huge global nerfs/buffs at the moment and actually has the full set of data there.

Interesting to see we have a full 25% difference in T1 players per side. I do agree its a bit of both going on. Potato players get scores inflated by the damage hose nature of clan weaponry and truely skilled players have learned to try to counter enemy twisting with their long beam times or use PPFLD builds. Bad clan players do get carried along when they are against bad IS players, but that doesn't extend as well when it comes to top tier vs top tier.

[Andi Nagasia]

i cant agree with just letting people take any mech as thats not Balance in anyway,
can IS and Clan become More balanced Yes, but thats not the right way to go about it,

also some Tweets from Russ on Faction Play,

Twitter said:

Russ Bullock ‏@russ_bullock 4h4 hours ago
So using new metrics of the # of T1 Unit players in Clan vs IS - will use this data to do some tonnage adjustments in FP from now on

Russ Bullock ‏@russ_bullock 2h2 hours ago
Let me reword so people don't get caught up on tier 1 debate. Clans currently have 25% more unit/group types than IS.

Russ Bullock ‏@russ_bullock 2h2 hours ago
As we all agree that is a lot more important than tech difference and the main balance concern ATM not tech and mechs.

Russ Bullock ‏@russ_bullock 2h2 hours ago
We are always working on balance but in the meantime tonnage changes will not be based on over % of population in Clan or IS

Russ Bullock ‏@russ_bullock 2h2 hours ago
It will be based on % of top unit players per side

Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 15 December 2016 - 06:16 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Pariah Devalis, on 15 December 2016 - 06:04 PM, said:

From some tweets Russ made, earlier, he seems more skewed towards the idea of lowering Clan drop weight to compensate for the higher population of t1 pilots in the Clan side of things - or rather, there are 25% more T1 pilots who use Clan mechs, which, while tier 1 doesn't necessarily mean you're skilled, truly bad pilots are unlikely to get that far.

Two things about that: One, it's good that he rather mess with drop weight over needlessly nerfing things on a global scale, since the bad mechs become worse every time that happens, and for no good reason. Two, he sideways admitted here, as he did during the Tukkayyid events, that the skill of the average Clan pilot is greater than the average IS pilots. IIRC, during the Elo days, Clan pilots tended to have a higher average score there as they do now under PSR.

Now, about that. It could be a loop that reinforces that. That is to say, if the Clan mechs are just so much easier to perform well over IS mechs, it would cause the average Clan pilot to naturally tend to gain statistical benefits over the average IS pilot. This would mean that the superiority of Clan mechs leads to average clan players that, on paper, seem more skilled than the average IS pilot, even if this was untrue.

I will say that the baseline potato level pilots might benefit unfairly due to the mechanics of Clan SSRM launchers. No need to aim, just line up and spray. Effective as hell against an enemy that cannot aim. Significantly less threatening against an enemy who can. It could inflate the statistics and tier of potato grade Clan pilots as compared to their similar IS potatos.

On the other hand, it could also really mean that right now there are actually better Clan pilots, on a technical, actual level than what the IS pilots. On average, that is. Clans then continue to win overwhelmingly because of better pilots are offering on average, but because the Clans keep winning it could be falsely attributed to "tech" when it is a "skill" thing.

In reality, it's usually somewhere in between both extremes. Likely, there's a bit of both going on. Artificial inflation of statistics and tiers, especially in the lower tier of pilots, in addition to legitimately high skill pilots in the higher tiers.

Better pilots get sick of using inferior tech.

About the time a player is good enough to actually understand what "trading" really is and how it works he's going to see the performance differences, and so eventually migrate to Clans.

It's not just SSRMs. CXL always works. Faster, always survive ST loss, that always works every skill level. Longer weapon range always works. Lord Scrub McSpuddington, Lizard King of the Underhive will see a measurable benefit from it. No matter how bad he is, his pug team will stick mostly together because they all automatically go the same speed.

Good hitboxes for rolling damage, short LPL burn times, PPFLD are worthless below a relatively high skill level. At pug tier Clan advantages still apply, IS ones do not. At competent team with coordinated deck skill levels it's really close - a good strat and slightly better coordination bridges that gap. Against teams like EVIL and KCOM and such they don't make the mistakes very often you need to bridge it.

At pug level though? It's not that Clan pugs are better - it's that their advantages take no additional skill to apply. They're always on. IS pugs who don't roll, build to spec and quirks, control range and focus fire may as well be running all stock builds.

Andi Nagasia, on 15 December 2016 - 06:15 PM, said:

i cant agree with just letting people take any mech as thats not Balance in anyway,
can IS and Clan become More balanced Yes, but thats not the right way to go about it,

also some Tweets from Russ on Faction Play,

Edit-

Only thing tonnage buff will do is pay Clans more for their wins.

That's it.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Andi Nagasia, on 15 December 2016 - 06:15 PM, said:

i cant agree with just letting people take any mech as thats not Balance in anyway,
can IS and Clan become More balanced Yes, but thats not the right way to go about it,

also some Tweets from Russ on Faction Play,

Edit-

Really glad to see Russ is based and basically confirming what I've been seeing out there.

"As we all agree that [group/unit imbalance] is a lot more important than tech difference and the main balance concern ATM not tech and mechs."

@MischiefSC: Its not another IS tonnage buff, its a clan tonnage nerf. We won't be getting any extra payment from increases in IS LRM Atlases, but we will have to swap our Mad IICs out to bring our heavies again.

Edited by Dakota1000, 15 December 2016 - 06:22 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

MischiefSC, on 15 December 2016 - 06:18 PM, said:

Better pilots get sick of using inferior tech.

About the time a player is good enough to actually understand what "trading" really is and how it works he's going to see the performance differences, and so eventually migrate to Clans.

It's not just SSRMs. CXL always works. Faster, always survive ST loss, that always works every skill level. Longer weapon range always works. Lord Scrub McSpuddington, Lizard King of the Underhive will see a measurable benefit from it. No matter how bad he is, his pug team will stick mostly together because they all automatically go the same speed.

Good hitboxes for rolling damage, short LPL burn times, PPFLD are worthless below a relatively high skill level. At pug tier Clan advantages still apply, IS ones do not. At competent team with coordinated deck skill levels it's really close - a good strat and slightly better coordination bridges that gap. Against teams like EVIL and KCOM and such they don't make the mistakes very often you need to bridge it.

At pug level though? It's not that Clan pugs are better - it's that their advantages take no additional skill to apply. They're always on. IS pugs who don't roll, build to spec and quirks, control range and focus fire may as well be running all stock builds.



Only thing tonnage buff will do is pay Clans more for their wins.

That's it.

Which is basically what I said, in regards to potatos - though with more points of advantage listed. I think it is a shame that the Clan tech provides an unequal footing for lower tier pilots. It gives an unfair advantage. At the higher end of the spectrum, however, with pilots who know the ins and outs well, the IS advantages pair nicely against the Clan disadvantages, and vice versa. It's fairly close in the high end for balance.

It is that low end balance that is borked, and I will freely admit that as a Clan pilot. It's a problem.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 15 December 2016 - 06:22 PM.

[Alteran]

Andi Nagasia, on 15 December 2016 - 06:15 PM, said:

i cant agree with just letting people take any mech as thats not Balance in anyway,
can IS and Clan become More balanced Yes, but thats not the right way to go about it,

Then balance the techs entirely. There can be no balance in any other fashion. MischiefSC has it right

MischiefSC, on 15 December 2016 - 06:07 PM, said:

The current system isn't trying to balance apples to apples, it's trying to balance apples and who's singing the national anthem at the Super Bowl next year. Hence the perpetual WTF on balancing.

PGI can only do it, if a ML is a ML for both IS and Clans. An XL engine can't be balanced if there are differences in any way, shape or fashion. There just can't.

Get rid of the two different techs. Use a single tech.

At least then I can really use the Stompy Robbits^TM name for real.

I guess I'm just done with all the same Tech balancing that PGI has tried for the last 2 years.

Just do it.

[MischiefSC]

Dakota1000, on 15 December 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:

Really glad to see Russ is based and basically confirming what I've been seeing out there.

"As we all agree that [group/unit imbalance] is a lot more important than tech difference and the main balance concern ATM not tech and mechs."

That's like saying you feed a hungry man best by giving him fish coupons instead of teaching him to fish.

*Why have units gravitated to Clans consistently for 2 years?*

They wanted a 2 yr head start for release of MAD-IIC?

How about you ask all the teams and mercs who've repeated said Clan mechs are better?

Pariah Devalis, on 15 December 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:

Which is basically what I said, in regards to potatos - though with more points of advantage listed. I think it is a shame that the Clan tech provides an unequal footing for lower tier pilots. It gives an unfair advantage. At the higher end of the spectrum, however, with pilots who know the ins and outs well, the IS advantages pair nicely against the Clan disadvantages, and vice versa. It's fairly close in the high end for balance.

It is that low end balance that is borked, and I will freely admit that as a Clan pilot. It's a problem.

Balance tech and unlock Omnis. Rainbows, puppies and kittens for everyone. IS survives ST XL loss, you can change engines on your TBR and have no negative quirks.

Such a better game.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Pariah Devalis, on 15 December 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:

Which is basically what I said, in regards to potatos - though with more points of advantage listed. I think it is a shame that the Clan tech provides an unequal footing for lower tier pilots. It gives an unfair advantage. At the higher end of the spectrum, however, with pilots who know the ins and outs well, the IS advantages pair nicely against the Clan disadvantages, and vice versa. It's fairly close in the high end for balance.

It is that low end balance that is borked, and I will freely admit that as a Clan pilot. It's a problem.

I talk a bit more indepth about the disparity at the low end in a full topic here:
https://mwomercs.com...ion-warfare-41/

[Pariah Devalis]

MischiefSC, on 15 December 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:

Balance tech and unlock Omnis. Rainbows, puppies and kittens for everyone. IS survives ST XL loss, you can change engines on your TBR and have no negative quirks.

Such a better game.

But balance tech how? Remember, in here, ask a question to three people and you will get 9 answers to the same question. I for one don't think that IS and Clan tech should be like for like the same across the board. That would be a lazy way to balance things, and kill the flavor of both factions. Different but equal should be possible.

I also don't think TTK should be reduced in any way from what it is. A little more durable IS mechs? Sure. More fragile Clan mechs? No. For example, I could see IS FF and ES providing a percentage extra armor or structure if equipped to offset the extra space it takes up, while Clan weapons and equipment have lower HP such that they can be broken easier via crits. I kinda like the idea of IS mechs being durable as hell at the expense of some speed and firepower, while Clan mechs maintain some speed and firepower advantages, but can't take quite the same sort of abuse as a well piloted IS mech.

Also think SSRM (and LRM) mechanics need a major overhaul. Self guided weapons shouldn't be an I Win button against aimed weapons, at any tier. However, they can't be useless at the upper tiers, either. :\

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 15 December 2016 - 06:32 PM.

[kuma8877]

A possible way to balance the overall feel/play of CW on two levels exists within the contract system with some lore backup to boot aside from the tech imbalances. The more I think about it , I think sweetening the pot for IS loyalists contracts in monetary value (cbills) would help draw and keep players on the IS side, for IS specific reasons (mechs/tech on that side and big cash payouts). This idea based on the massive economies of the inner sphere (war torn tho they may be) would justify a large cbill payout to IS faction members as the cream of the crop Mechwarriors going to war against the clanners.

Merc contracts would also have higher cbill payouts when working for the IS, but I feel slightly less than the actual houses payout would help balance the freedom Merc's enjoy to switch contracts.

Now to the interesting part, the Clanners. Clanners don't fight for money nor do their home systems have economies on par with the IS for large cash payouts. Their economies provide the highest grade tech and the engineered warriors to pilot them. In this regard, I think that contracts involving larger GXP payouts would be the underpinning to Clan contracts. This demonstrates why clanners fight.... to fight, and get better at fighting with the best tech available.

Clanner merc contracts would also use a similar format as above but with higher GXP payouts vs cbill.

Now, choosing a side has relevance besides the technological advantage, or nostalgia advantage. I would also go to a dual mech release schedule with one IS and one Clan together every other month. This alleviates the shifting tide with mech releases.

I think this would help to balance out the overall populations existing on each side of the war. See where the skill tree lands us as far as tech balance, and then deal with the tech side once it's in place and we know what that systems effects are.