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Inner Sphere/clan Imbalance Is Real And It Is A Problem


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#301 Sedmeister

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 04:45 PM

View Postnehebkau, on 17 December 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:


I said this two years ago and people go so angry that I was concerned there would be a price on my head. But I still agree.


A couple of thoughts.

Surely it's not either or? Surely you can do both and? My recommendation was moving the attempt to balance FPS/lore away from mech based quirks/nerfs which seem quite arbitrary and cumbersome as well as frustrating to many of the player base, towards factors external to the mech. I'm not saying players should have to bring lore enforced stock mechs (read my suggestions above). Hopefully you can hear that. I'm saying move the fulcrum from quirks/weapon specs/modules etc to extra mech factors. Hear me if you can.

Alternatively, yes, totally abandon lore. However, if you do that, PGI should hand the licence back and allow another company to be the custodian of the thirty odd years of creative content which is the reason many of us persist with MWO. And that statement is not a childish threat. If lore is too cumbersome a burden for the current owners and player base, pull the pin on it. Simple as that. Maybe it's time? Maybe you'll lose 50% of the player base, maybe you'll lose 2%. Who knows? But that's the call right there I think?

If you pull the pin on lore, finally MWO is free to be a first class FPS "loosely based on the Battletech Universe" and the licensed lore find a home with another developer. Who knows?

Or as a community we seek new ways to balance the fps experience and lore in a way that is less infuriating than the current attempt at making superior Clan mechs equal to inferior IS mechs as per lore.

I think thems the choices?

Edited by Sedmeister, 17 December 2016 - 04:47 PM.


#302 MischiefSC

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 05:14 PM

The idea that balancing Clans to IS is some utter violation of BT but the other changes we've made is also BS.

Liquid metal mechs and customization. Absolutely against lore.

Clan pilots no better than average IS pilots. Utterly contrary to lore.

That we're all filthy rich with a stable of personal mechs, many bigger than whole regiments? That any 4 veteran players probably has more mechs available than House Liao in total? Utterly opposite of lore.

Weapon accuracy? In lore hitting with a ML at 130m was 50/50 for most players. Putting a whole alpha, which thanks to liquid metal mech design is bigger than anything in lore, into a single location? You may as well have Hello Kitty piloting a Gundam in service to the Sith Empire.

We've already blown off lore where balance is concerned in order to make the game playable. Fixing broken IS/Clan XL balance would be one of the smallest lore changes in the games development. It's a relatively small difference in TT but critical in a FPS, because of unique DPS elements.

Stop the whole "if you balance IS and Clan XLs it's not BT" silliness. We've made vastly bigger concessions to balance already.

#303 Dex Spero

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 05:21 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 17 December 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

The idea that balancing Clans to IS is some utter violation of BT but the other changes we've made is also BS.

Liquid metal mechs and customization. Absolutely against lore.

Clan pilots no better than average IS pilots. Utterly contrary to lore.

That we're all filthy rich with a stable of personal mechs, many bigger than whole regiments? That any 4 veteran players probably has more mechs available than House Liao in total? Utterly opposite of lore.

Weapon accuracy? In lore hitting with a ML at 130m was 50/50 for most players. Putting a whole alpha, which thanks to liquid metal mech design is bigger than anything in lore, into a single location? You may as well have Hello Kitty piloting a Gundam in service to the Sith Empire.

We've already blown off lore where balance is concerned in order to make the game playable. Fixing broken IS/Clan XL balance would be one of the smallest lore changes in the games development. It's a relatively small difference in TT but critical in a FPS, because of unique DPS elements.

Stop the whole "if you balance IS and Clan XLs it's not BT" silliness. We've made vastly bigger concessions to balance already.

Time for PGI to change their official stance from 'MWO: BT Online' to 'BT Inspired'?

#304 BearFlag

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 05:52 PM

Much of this discussion has become circular.

There are two main levels of "balance" here. The mech-tech balance and the vastly, vastly more important match-level balance.

The mech-tech problem is real, not huge, but big enough. Dane's idea that allowing both sides to use all mechs would indeed solve this as IS players added good Clan mechs to their inventories. It's probably also true that this would null out the appeal of tech advantage. This in turn might very well help side/faction population distribution. But, frankly, it would do little to provide match balance.

DROP DECK WEIGHTS:
This tweak doesn't fit into a category. It certainly doesn't help match balance in most cases. The added tonnage is pointless in a 12-man v pugs. If it's meant as mech-tech balance it really only applies if the opposing teams are, by chance, near equal in skill and play.

MECH-TECH:
Dane's solution skirts this problem by simply making all available to all. Definitely works. But many, including me, don't want to see yet another blow to character and immersion. Clan mechs are supposed to be different at least, and maybe 'better.'

A question prods. Do we want equal, asymmetric but equal, asymmetric and not equal in our mechs? And does it matter? PGI has been fiddling around with asymmetric but equal for years without success. Some say it's just too complicated. Well, that's junk. Mechs and their weapons are numbers, that's all. We're not building a climate model with the constraints of physics; we're working on a fictional construct where everything can be tweaked. Arriving at "balance" is not enormously difficult - it's a straight forward feedback loop. Build a model, adjust it from experience until you find some sweet spots.

I'll skip going into detail on how to do this because the bigger problem is match-level balance.

MATCH BALANCE:
Since inception, FW has lacked a matchmaker. They were later unable to add one because without population a 'player pool' system could not be brought in. Further, the single drop deck with rigid definition made dynamic weight adjustment difficult. They resorted to the drop deck weight adjustment which could provide only close-match balancing and is no matchmaker.

If there's a tech difference, a matchmaker would simply factor it in. If there is skill differences, a matchmaker can try to adjust with whatever tools it has available. What does FW have for dynamic adjustments? Not much. It occurred to me recently that with multiple drop decks, a FW matchbuilder could use a 'mech pool' approach in contrast to QP's pilot/mech approach. In short, it would draw from both (or more) drop decks to build the actual game drop deck. Pugs come in heavy, 12-mans either come in lighter or with no adjustment. Not a full matchmaker, but at least match analysis would be performed and adjustments made from what's available - weight, from a pool of eight or more mechs. The adjustments would be made proportional to the calculated disparity.

Without a matchmaker, FW will continue to have blow outs, continue drive people away and continue to languish. This would be a start at least.

#305 Aiden Skye

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 05:56 PM

So today in FW, looks like a total stalemate as the tug of war hasn't really got away from skirmish much. Skirmish...the bane of my existence, just cant get away from it. What happened?

Edited by W A R K H A N, 17 December 2016 - 05:56 PM.


#306 MischiefSC

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 05:58 PM

View PostDex Spero, on 17 December 2016 - 05:21 PM, said:

Time for PGI to change their official stance from 'MWO: BT Online' to 'BT Inspired'?


Nah. The other BT game titles took huge liberties too. They're still BT. So either we make IS obsolete and have players ignore it as soon as they can afford Clan tech or we make them 1 to 1 viable so we can actually have a IS v Clan PvP environment.

Which is what Catalyst did. They nuked the game universe so they could start over 1 to 1, because original Clan balance was terrible, hence why they abandoned it and every other game the original developers pitched has been well before the Clans.

Why are we requires to repeat the worst design mistake in the games history? The developers have already abandoned this failed idea and moved on to a 1 to 1 balance environment. Why don't we? We continue in the same vein as faster firing, players with 100 mechs in their bay, anyone in Clans regardless of skill, no through armor crits, etc.

We fix the stuff that doesn't work in a PvP environment.

#307 Bud Crue

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 06:08 PM

View PostM A N T I S, on 17 December 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:


So you make that snide remark, deny, reject then accept the answer, however unwittingly. Read your own post below.



Yes, the stupid, dumb, know-nothing company named PGI knows nothing of their own game, nor how to balance it. If only they listened to you... the casual player and meta forum-posters of this game, all would be solved huh? Even though they have access to numbers you and I only dream of.

But wait, what is this??? Are we presently tied in the latest FP cycle, soon after PGI began assigning tonnage limits based on distribution on high tier players? It appears we are! Fancy that! Parity achieved once skill level is deemed to be the metric to balance on.

Quelle surprise.

Substitute the word "mercenaries" for "skill", and you nailed it.

Yeah you called it. Because everything was jsut stable as hell until 4.1. PGI had a firm grasp on everything and all was perfect. Man, if I didn't know any better I would think you haven't been paying attention at all. Yeah, PGI getting balance right since day one because they know best. Are you really asserting that?

265 vs 240. Huh...where are mercs going to go now when one side has been given yet another crutch/benefit/"balance mechanism". I wonder? What has "skill" to do with that? All thos unskilled folks decided to go to the lighter clans all of a sudden? Is that your contention? Or do you think good players now see an advantage with the heavier IS and are heading over there, thus leading to the momentary parity?

Read PGI's own statement. They identify the very problem that I am pointing out, yet continue to ignore the impact of a mechanism that encourages the best players to congregate to where there are obvious benefits. Yes, a snide schmuk like me can see that. Do you really think it is viable to have to have a mode which requires constant observation by the devs in near real time to make it playable...this same mode where in they previously felt confident enough to leave it alone for over 6 months? Yeah. PGI are masters of balance and stability. Gimmie a break.

Edited by Bud Crue, 17 December 2016 - 06:19 PM.


#308 Stitchedup

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 06:58 PM

the tonnage increase has help at least when i log in now i play the other modes other than invasion

#309 CK16

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 07:17 PM

The biggest thing I have found is FW is where ever Evil goes is who wins...it's sad really....one unit controls all of FW, even if they don't win them all its no secert alot of top mercs go where the others go and will not fight each other cause W/L is all everytime to thier epeen.

#310 kuma8877

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 07:29 PM

View PostBud Crue, on 17 December 2016 - 06:08 PM, said:

Yeah you called it. Because everything was jsut stable as hell until 4.1. PGI had a firm grasp on everything and all was perfect. Man, if I didn't know any better I would think you haven't been paying attention at all. Yeah, PGI getting balance right since day one because they know best. Are you really asserting that?

265 vs 240. Huh...where are mercs going to go now when one side has been given yet another crutch/benefit/"balance mechanism". I wonder? What has "skill" to do with that? All thos unskilled folks decided to go to the lighter clans all of a sudden? Is that your contention? Or do you think good players now see an advantage with the heavier IS and are heading over there, thus leading to the momentary parity?

Read PGI's own statement. They identify the very problem that I am pointing out, yet continue to ignore the impact of a mechanism that encourages the best players to congregate to where there are obvious benefits. Yes, a snide schmuk like me can see that. Do you really think it is viable to have to have a mode which requires constant observation by the devs in near real time to make it playable...this same mode where in they previously felt confident enough to leave it alone for over 6 months? Yeah. PGI are masters of balance and stability. Gimmie a break.

Just going to point this out Bud. Do with it as you will:

Dane Crowton Jarl_Dane Dec 13
@russ_bullock IS tonnage increase is just a bandaid to the underlining balance issue. It is super broken right now between factions. #mwo


Russ Bullock russ_bullock
@Jarl_Dane working on it - bandaids are useful while we work
[/color]

#311 Bud Crue

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 08:56 PM

View Postkuma8877, on 17 December 2016 - 07:29 PM, said:

Just going to point this out Bud. Do with it as you will:

Dane Crowton Jarl_Dane Dec 13
@russ_bullock IS tonnage increase is just a bandaid to the underlining balance issue. It is super broken right now between factions. #mwo


Russ Bullock russ_bullock
@Jarl_Dane working on it - bandaids are useful while we work
[/color]


Bandaid while they work, indeed. These are the same folks who continue to refer to CW as "end game content". Who as late as Q2 of this year were calling Phase 3 the end of substantive development of the CW mode with only incremental improvements needed from here on out (see April 1st town hall), because the mode was where they wanted it. Did any of that end up being true? I'll believe they are "working on it" when that work is actually reflected in an effort to fix the game. Mantis (see his post above) and others may believe that PGI in its omniscient efficiency has already perfected the game, but objective reality and 10 seconds of goggle searching will show to even the most ignorant of observers that time and time again actual play PROVES that this mode is not even remotely balanced, let alone stable or perfect. As long as the basic premise of the mode allows and even encourages the best players to follow and take full advantage of the meta to the detriment of the rest of the population then this mode will be dominated by that behavior. It should thus not be a shock to anyone that the best players go to the tech with the best mechs or that which provides some other significant advantage (like, say a large tonnage advantage). Trying to manipulate that sort of stuff is an obvious bandaid, yes. But what have they done since phase 1 to suggest that they are working on an actual cure for that wound which requires one to keep changing those bandaids?

#312 kuma8877

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 11:24 PM

View PostBud Crue, on 17 December 2016 - 08:56 PM, said:


Bandaid while they work, indeed. These are the same folks who continue to refer to CW as "end game content". Who as late as Q2 of this year were calling Phase 3 the end of substantive development of the CW mode with only incremental improvements needed from here on out (see April 1st town hall), because the mode was where they wanted it. Did any of that end up being true? I'll believe they are "working on it" when that work is actually reflected in an effort to fix the game. Mantis (see his post above) and others may believe that PGI in its omniscient efficiency has already perfected the game, but objective reality and 10 seconds of goggle searching will show to even the most ignorant of observers that time and time again actual play PROVES that this mode is not even remotely balanced, let alone stable or perfect. As long as the basic premise of the mode allows and even encourages the best players to follow and take full advantage of the meta to the detriment of the rest of the population then this mode will be dominated by that behavior. It should thus not be a shock to anyone that the best players go to the tech with the best mechs or that which provides some other significant advantage (like, say a large tonnage advantage). Trying to manipulate that sort of stuff is an obvious bandaid, yes. But what have they done since phase 1 to suggest that they are working on an actual cure for that wound which requires one to keep changing those bandaids?

I said it earlier but there are other ways than only tech related balancing by which to actually balance CW (and quite vital to the game mode as a whole). You said it yourself, as has Russ and have many others here, not only is there a tech disparity, but more importantly you have a skill balancing issue currently, augmented by a coinciding mech release. This just inflates the problem of the tech differential.

Flip the tables, and field us (I'm in this group for CW) newbs with only a small contingency of skilled veterans to try and lead them on the clan side with the superior tech, versus the vast majority of the good players in the game with the admittedly inferior, to some degree IS tech, and we all know what happens there... the clans get handily defeated in short order. This quick thought experiment gets us to brass tacks about the deeper issue at hand in CW.

The real answer to balancing the game mode of CW is to spread the talent around and give the good pilots a reason to ground themselves to a House or Clan for decent amounts of time at a stretch for more individual reasons as opposed to the tech itself. The contract system is the best opportunity to do this. Differentiate the contracts offered between the houses/clans that offer certain advantages to actually maintaining allegiance to those factions on both sides of the war, regardless of ability to take planets. Each house has it's own contract as does each individual clan within the IS/clan conflict. Perhaps to include not only cbill, mc and premium time as the differentiating points between contracts, but also include a percentage reduction in that faction's deckals, lore associated camo's or better yet, often associated mechs, while employed or loyal to said faction.

Going after balancing the game of CW within MWO by default is coming up with an effective way to balance the population of skilled and unskilled players together across both buckets. Using the faction layer contracts to differentiate and add personality to each faction will help spread people back out across the greater conflict of IS vs Clan.

This is what really needs to be addressed to make CW a good mode overall, and 4.2 should be the contract revamp.

#313 Count Zero 74

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 11:47 PM

Saturday evening, EU attack phase. 7 min before ceasefire:

Posted Image

Seems pretty balanced to me. You IS yanks just have to grow a pair and get your **** together.

#314 Positive Mental Attitude

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 11:48 PM

View PostCK16, on 17 December 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

The biggest thing I have found is FW is where ever Evil goes is who wins...it's sad really....one unit controls all of FW, even if they don't win them all its no secert alot of top mercs go where the others go and will not fight each other cause W/L is all everytime to thier epeen.



We tried to hold the clans back today. Between MJ12 and us we could only keep a stalemate going until everyone got on for saturday night. We won every single game all day 10+ hours and MJ12 was reported to have lost only one.

I think we need more tonnage, some of the games were a little too close..

#315 Sjorpha

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 01:25 AM

View Postkuma8877, on 17 December 2016 - 07:29 PM, said:

Just going to point this out Bud. Do with it as you will:

Dane Crowton Jarl_Dane Dec 13
@russ_bullock IS tonnage increase is just a bandaid to the underlining balance issue. It is super broken right now between factions. #mwo


Russ Bullock russ_bullock
@Jarl_Dane working on it - bandaids are useful while we work
[/color]


Shout out to Russ for being honest and for recognizing the problem.

Increasing the tonnage was a reasonable reaction, it's one of the few things they could do on the fly like that and something had to be done.

#316 Freeman 52

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 01:32 AM

View PostCount Zero 74, on 17 December 2016 - 11:47 PM, said:

Saturday evening, EU attack phase. 7 min before ceasefire:

Posted Image

Seems pretty balanced to me. You IS yanks just have to grow a pair and get your **** together.


We may have lost some low-tier pugs since 4.1 started. Or we are finally getting more groups. Last night was certainly a breath of fresh air.

Perhaps we can set the balance conversation aside for a while. Until the new skill tree, maybe?

#317 kapusta11

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 02:45 AM

Clan mechs need to be only slightly better for comp players to switch faction and after they do so you can't just say it's about the mechs, it starts to snowball, most comp teams go clan and it's no longer rational to assume that clans should not dominate in FP.

I don't think that mech/tech difference is that severe. The problem is that PGI keeps pandering to bad but loud players and continues to nerf competitive IS mechs, all while clans keep getting new and better ones. Rescale didn't help either.

And I don't agree with allowing IS/Clans to use Clan/IS mechs. Every competitive IS drop deck will have clan mechs only in it. That's not a solution.

Edited by kapusta11, 18 December 2016 - 03:04 AM.


#318 Hanky Spam

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 03:26 AM

View Postkapusta11, on 18 December 2016 - 02:45 AM, said:

Clan mechs need to be only slightly better for comp players to switch faction and after they do so you can't just say it's about the mechs, it starts to snowball, most comp teams go clan and it's no longer rational to assume that clans should not dominate in FP.

I don't think that mech/tech difference is that severe. The problem is that PGI keeps pandering to bad but loud players and continue to nerf competitive IS mechs, all while clans keep getting new and better ones. Rescale didn't help either.

And I don't agree with allowing IS/Clans to use Clan/IS mechs. Every competitive IS drop deck will have clan mechs only in it. That's not a solution.



Snoball/pyramid scheme is real and wasn't also considered by our statistic heros here.

#319 C E Dwyer

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 08:41 AM

I do think you have a point Dane, I think your analysis is pretty spot on, so I'll say no more on that because I don't want this to become a long post.

I do have to say your solution is the worse idea I've ever heard since I created an account, your basically saying that the only way to make this game balanced is to make it Hawken, where everyone can play the same mech, and removing the last thing left that makes this game anything resembling the franchise that started as a table top.

What is the solution ?

I don't know if there really is one, because as you correctly state, the top teams will go where they feel the best chance to win is, all P.G.I can ever do is continue to gimp the clans and buff the I.S and get balance so unclear, that opinions in the top teams is divided.

Personally I'd rather see XL engines mechanic changed to 4 critical slots destroyed before a mech is destroyed, which because engines so far don't take critical hits both I.S and clan engines can survive the destruction of a side torso.

While that is a cheap solution, it's a good deal more palitable than what your offering.

#320 Graugger

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 09:09 AM

Inquiry, if we aren't going by lore... Why is Clan tech different?

Why the superior range... why the increased heat?
Why the minimum range on IS LRMs?
Why the fixed components on Clan Omnis?
Why 14 slots for IS improvements and 7 for Clans?
Why is everything so unique?

UNIQUE OP!!!





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