197 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 December 2016 - 07:16 AM, said:

I seem to recall the same argument being shot down back when the Stalker was good enough to sometimes win agaibst the Timberwolf.


Hmmmm...

To be fair, there was a point where cracking a stalker wall was nigh impossible as clans, hull down LL stalkers were a force to be reckoned with, as were the 9S PPC boat thuds.

[LordMelvin]

Viktor Drake, on 21 December 2016 - 01:59 PM, said:

Why do weapons have to be in sync? I have one build for my MAD-IIC-8 that uses a single ER PPC in the high mount, 2 LPLs and 3 ER MLs and It is very effective. I get 3 heavy, high damage weapons including one I can hill hump snipe with to reduce damage, also because I am using an ER PPC and only 2 LPLs I avoid Ghost heat on the LPLs and finally I have 3 ER MLs to fire when my other weapons are on cool down. I also tend to cycle though my weapons and focus on sustained fire rather than rely on pure alpha strikes.

Another one uses a Single Gauss in the high mount, plus 2 LPLs in the right arm and 3 ER ML in the left arm for much of the same reasons and used in the same way.

I may not be uber leet but I almost always have a match score in the top 4 on my team so running a mixed loadout doesn't seem to much effect my performance.

The main reason for keeping your whole loadout in sync is to allow you to have maximum effectiveness in your range bracket. Before the nerfs to clan laser range the ERML/LPL combo was king because the ranges on ERMLs and CLPLs synced up to about 600m (IIRC). So from 0-600m you could fire everything without any loss of efficiency. ERPPCs have travel time so at longer ranges you have to adjust aim between weapon groups and in brawls they're too hot to use consistently.

That said, I find mixed builds more fun to play because of the options and variety. If the build works for you rock it.

[Corrado]

last time someone did scream "op marauder!" was a 2gauss 2ppc XL engine warhammer. 2 shots in the side torso, gauss blown up, took the XL and the warhammer died. so damn fun to see those players playing super squishy builds like that and talk about what's cheese and what's not.

[Y E O N N E]

Gyrok, on 21 December 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

To be fair, there was a point where cracking a stalker wall was nigh impossible as clans, hull down LL stalkers were a force to be reckoned with, as were the 9S PPC boat thuds.

That's not really fair, though. The 3xERPPC TDR-9S was, like, the briefest meta this game has ever seen. It lasted, what, two weeks? And then poof. Gone (along with other things that were very nice but nowhere near OP...or even P, like small-las quirks on the LCT-1E). The Stalkers, however, lasted awhile. But the Stalkers were power position 'Mechs like the Mauler and Kodiak, and you know what the antidote to power-position is?

Pop-tarting.

It doesn't even matter that the PPC bolts were slow at the time, because so are Stalkers. We had plenty of 'Mechs capable of mounting one or two PPCs, sometimes even a Gauss, with good-enough jumping ability to boink targets with PPFLD but nobody recognized it. Aiming at all-but-stationary targets is hard...

[JadePanther]

Baulven, on 19 December 2016 - 04:12 PM, said:

Per the assault Leaderboard this is the ranking per chassis (Variants for the Maurader IIc)

Kodiak
Battle master
Dire Wolf
Warhawk
King Crab
Maurader IIc + [S]
Stalker
Banshee
Executioner
Awesome
Mauler
Highlander IIC
Gargoyle
Mad IIC 8
Mad IIC scorch
Atlas
Mad IIC A
Highlander
Zeus
Mad IIC D
Mad IIC C
Victor
Mad IIC B

The top performer might need tweaked a bit but the chassis is not the end all be all. Hell certain Variants are scoring less than a victor.

where is said listing type document.. i lost track of that one

[nitra]

Mole, on 21 December 2016 - 11:49 AM, said:

Yeah! How DARE that Marauder IIC take 90 damage to kill?! Oh, what's that? Other Assault 'mechs in the same weight range as the Marauder IIC have over 100 armor on their CT and could tank the same amount of damage with armor to spare? Huh... whodathunk it?

lot more damge went into that madiic than just 90 damage there was the damge before it came around the montain so thats either mech 1 or 2... then my damage .... then the other madiic that hit him twice probably another 60 damage.
that being mech 3 ... i think there may have been a 4th mech firing a ppc into him (other than me) also but i cant rule that out being a graphical anaomaly .

either way this is just one of my several experiences in brawling and trading with madiics that it takes 3 mechs to down the sucker.

same as the kdk it is taking more and more fire power from the innesphere mechs to down this new ideology in clan mechs.

has nothing to do with not getting the kill just that innesphere has to spend to much facetime confronting these mechs for little gain. while the kdk and now the madiic are outputting so much more damge in shorter windows that it has become noticeable that my time to live on the field has become way shorter when it comes to direct engagements.

and while this was fine at first. adapt or die what not... its starting to come to a point where a lot of innesphere mechs are greatly out classed on the field.

inorder to be effective it takes about 3 times the combined fire power to bring down a kdk or mad iic and in that engagement scenario 1 to 2 of those mechs are dead before the kdk or madiic is down.

im rewatching some footage as i type this where a trip ac2 vindicator a kdk and a madiic encounter a kdk in the tunnel on crimson

vindicator puts out about 50 damage into the kdk, the freindly kdk puts whats left of his alpha into the enemy kdk, and the mad iic gets off 2 good salvos before putting the enemey kdk down with his 3rd. only to be finished off quickly by a enforcer.

im debating with my self if its a good vid to demonstarte my point because theres a lot of noise (noise meaning addtional fire coming from other mechs ) but at the same time it did take 3 enemy mechs to down the freindly madiic

1. the trip ultra ac5 jager mech (was taken out before the kdk engagment.)
2. the kdk
3. the enforcer

i guess i will post it ... although its not a pristine example it does serve a purpose to illustarte my point. will post after i trimit down to the relevent battle.

the vid

Edited by nitra, 21 December 2016 - 08:17 PM.

[Snazzy Dragon]

nitra, on 21 December 2016 - 07:05 PM, said:

condensed whining

Spoiler

lot more damge went into that madiic than just 90 damage there was the damge before it came around the montain so thats either mech 1 or 2... then my damage .... then the other madiic that hit him twice probably another 60 damage.
that being mech 3 ... i think there may have been a 4th mech firing a ppc into him (other than me) also but i cant rule that out being a graphical anaomaly .

either way this is just one of my several experiences in brawling and trading with madiics that it takes 3 mechs to down the sucker.

same as the kdk it is taking more and more fire power from the innesphere mechs to down this new ideology in clan mechs.

has nothing to do with not getting the kill just that innesphere has to spend to much facetime confronting these mechs for little gain. while the kdk and now the madiic are outputting so much more damge in shorter windows that it has become noticeable that my time to live on the field has become way shorter when it comes to direct engagements.

and while this was fine at first. adapt or die what not... its starting to come to a point where a lot of innesphere mechs are greatly out classed on the field.

inorder to be effective it takes about 3 times the combined fire power to bring down a kdk or mad iic and in that engagement scenario 1 to 2 of those mechs are dead before the kdk or madiic is down.

im rewatching some footage as i type this where a trip ac2 vindicator a kdk and a madiic encounter a kdk in the tunnel on crimson

vindicator puts out about 50 damage into the kdk, the freindly kdk puts whats left of his alpha into the enemy kdk, and the mad iic gets off 2 good salvos before putting the enemey kdk down with his 3rd. only to be finished off quickly by a enforcer.

im debating with my self if its a good vid to demonstarte my point because theres a lot of noise (noise meaning addtional fire coming from other mechs ) but at the same time it did take 3 enemy mechs to down the freindly madiic

1. the trip ultra ac5 jager mech (was taken out before the kdk engagment.)
2. the kdk
3. the enforcer

i guess i will post it ... although its not a pristine example it does serve a purpose to illustarte my point. will post after i trimit down to the relevent battle.

>New mechs often take way more damage to kill than mechs people have learned the hitboxes of. When the kodiak first came out people had not learned where the CT ended and the side torsos began, and so they took on average ~120 more damage to kill than they usually do now.

>When a mech is opened up all over and no one calls to focus any particular component, it's a matter of whatever gets shot first. People also like farming components to inflate their damage score and stroke their ego at the end of the match.

>Both the maraduer and marauder IIC will take that amount of fire and still live more often than not because of their shape, hitboxes, and the lack of trigger discipline people have. Holding your shot for even half a second can be the difference between hitting full on to one component or having half your alpha soaking into another component instead, spreading your damage.

>Several of your PPC shots in that video fell within 90 meters because the marauder's butt is long and fat, so some damage you thought you did did not actually happen.

[nitra]

Snazzy Dragon, on 21 December 2016 - 07:12 PM, said:

>New mechs often take way more damage to kill than mechs people have learned the hitboxes of. When the kodiak first came out people had not learned where the CT ended and the side torsos began, and so they took on average ~120 more damage to kill than they usually do now.

>When a mech is opened up all over and no one calls to focus any particular component, it's a matter of whatever gets shot first. People also like farming components to inflate their damage score and stroke their ego at the end of the match.

>Both the maraduer and marauder IIC will take that amount of fire and still live more often than not because of their shape, hitboxes, and the lack of trigger discipline people have. Holding your shot for even half a second can be the difference between hitting full on to one component or having half your alpha soaking into another component instead, spreading your damage.

>Several of your PPC shots in that video fell within 90 meters because the marauder's butt is long and fat, so some damage you thought you did did not actually happen.

Not whining here, just stating my point you can be hateful all you want but im watching it frame by frame and relating my experience, and that maddiic never came closer than 110m and i know a madiic is not 68' long.

the kdk and the madiic are changing the game, you can choose to ignore it all you want but the fact remains that a majority of the innersphere mechs are becoming useless in direct engagements. and its not because the skill base is becoming weaker. but because their is a divide in the ideology when the innersphere mechs were created and what we have being created now.

and if you cant see it your more than likely turning a blind eye to it, because you benefit from the discrepancy.

Edited by nitra, 21 December 2016 - 07:41 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Nitra is right, the target never crossed under the threshold. He got red hit indicators on every shot.

What did happen, though, was most of his shots going into that destroyed LT, so the damage got reduced by at least 60%. Since the arm socket is also in the forward section of the ST, about where he was aiming, the damage was reduced 60% again on some of those shots.

That's why it took so long to put down.

Nitra, try placing your shots more deliberately. You weren't being pressured by enemy fire, no need to rip the rounds off like that.

[nitra]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 December 2016 - 07:46 PM, said:

Nitra is right, the target never crossed under the threshold. He got red hit indicators on every shot.

What did happen, though, was most of his shots going into that destroyed LT, so the damage got reduced by at least 60%. Since the arm socket is also in the forward section of the ST, about where he was aiming, the damage was reduced 60% again on some of those shots.

That's why it took so long to put down.

Nitra, try placing your shots more deliberately. You weren't being pressured by enemy fire, no need to rip the rounds off like that.

yeah my aim is terrible in that awesome i often wonder if i would be more lethal if i was steadier but despite different mouse setups i have hard time keeping that mouse dead center on target when engaged. (plus it dont help i like to blast em like that in stead of pinpointing the alpha. i love to suppress firing lines with it)

regardless of the aiming, it has become difficult to stay involved in any direct engagements .. i used to could brawl about, do some one on one duals in my dragon and get out . now i can barely stay on the field. less i change tactics completely and switch to indirect engagements.

and its only been with the last several months that this has taken place and watching the vids the reason why is the increase in damage that im taking from kdks and now madiics.


its really my concern that the game has changed and not for the better especially if your piloting inner sphere mechs. my longevity in them has greatly decreased.

Edited by nitra, 21 December 2016 - 08:19 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

One of my best-performing 'Mechs is a MAD-5D sporting a zany build with an ER PPC. 2x SRM6A, and 4x SPL...all on an XL 360. You can still brawl, but it's really a question of timing. I was in a match with you the other day on Canyon Network. I was in a Marauder 5M, and you took some early potshots at me as I crossed over to D3. You then ran up through the center to try and combat me as I was pop-tarting behind that rock formation, and my entire team unloaded on you.

Like, seriously, don't do that! Instead of tunneling on me, you should have gone around to find a new angle. Like, heading backward and taking the land bridge over to the C5, C6 area and wailing on my team, who were huddled on the ramp (as usual) would have been a great move. But don't banzai into the target.

[nitra]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 December 2016 - 08:25 PM, said:

One of my best-performing 'Mechs is a MAD-5D sporting a zany build with an ER PPC. 2x SRM6A, and 4x SPL...all on an XL 360. You can still brawl, but it's really a question of timing. I was in a match with you the other day on Canyon Network. I was in a Marauder 5M, and you took some early potshots at me as I crossed over to D3. You then ran up through the center to try and combat me as I was pop-tarting behind that rock formation, and my entire team unloaded on you.

Like, seriously, don't do that! Instead of tunneling on me, you should have gone around to find a new angle. Like, heading backward and taking the land bridge over to the C5, C6 area and wailing on my team, who were huddled on the ramp (as usual) would have been a great move. But don't banzai into the target.

lol i have my moments ... i hate canyon so i do odd things on it . i try and stay out of the ditches . wish i could remember that match so i could remember what i was thinking. but i had probably figured your team had not gotten to that point yet and i could do lil brawling before the oven got hot.

obviously i was wrong

[Baulven]

JadePanther, on 21 December 2016 - 06:08 PM, said:

where is said listing type document.. i lost track of that one

You can tab back through old events. It was the assault event from a couple of months back.

[Van Hoven]

nitra, on 21 December 2016 - 07:05 PM, said:

snip

As was pointed out, damage transfer is a thing, a ridicoulus one if you consider that some mechs like MAD, MAD IIC and Stalker benefit from it much more then others. Also, your target had yellow center armor and internals, with around 100 armor points and 50 internals its not that impossible that you needed at least 100 damage to kill it off, without damage transfer reductions taken into account.

Also that video... whats the point of it really? 3uac2 50 ton build cant win a stare off against a kdk3? the other mechs hardly got an alpha in. I'm not saying the kdk-3 isnt a very strong mech, but that video is hardly proof of it being OP.

Edited by Van Hoven, 22 December 2016 - 04:23 AM.

[Van Hoven]

And for the record, the MAD-IIC obviously is a very strong performer with lots of different and versatile builds, also with JJ and ECM capable variants. But to say its OP beyond competition and it needs negative quirks (since it didnt came with any its the only way to make it less powerful) is ... well, an option.

In my eyes - as a lot of others have stated before - the point is more about KDK-3 and MAD 2C are actually decent assaults for clans, where all the other have problems. Since they benefit from the best of all worlds - being battlemechs, clan mechs AND having good geometry / hardpoints / hardpoint localisations - they exagerate problems between IS and Clan tech more then any other mech.

Edited by Van Hoven, 22 December 2016 - 04:33 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

LordMelvin, on 21 December 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

The main reason for keeping your whole loadout in sync is to allow you to have maximum effectiveness in your range bracket. Before the nerfs to clan laser range the ERML/LPL combo was king because the ranges on ERMLs and CLPLs synced up to about 600m (IIRC). So from 0-600m you could fire everything without any loss of efficiency. ERPPCs have travel time so at longer ranges you have to adjust aim between weapon groups and in brawls they're too hot to use consistently.

That said, I find mixed builds more fun to play because of the options and variety. If the build works for you rock it.

I can understand the theory but applying a little skill is probably just as effective or even more so, so I don't get why so many people crutch up on those those game mechanics rather than learn how to play the game more effectively. I am not saying your one of these people but some many peopl are it isn't fun. It is kind of like the thread that was going on just a little while back about Arm Locks. The premise the OP had in that thread was that he could aim more effectively with Arm Lock on so couldn't understand why anyone would unlock their arms. It just blew my mind that he couldn't immediately see how disadvantaged that made him and how just taking to time to learn to use the two separate cross-hairs could dramatically improve his performance. Same goes for JJs. So many people only see the value of Poptarting with them but very few seem to see that if you take the time to skill up with their use, that they can offer a huge amount tactical flexibility beyond Poptarting.

Also honestly, alot of the supposed "Balance Issues" people complain about are completely overcome by applying a little skill to the problem so it is sad when something gets nerfed to accommodate what really amount to lazy people failing to adapt and learn bit higher level of skill to overcome the issue.

I do agree with you that mixed builds are a lot more fun to play. My MAD-IIC-8 is a laser vomit master that pretty much fits into your definition of a "Sync" build and I do very, very well with it, however, it is rather boring to play. Generally it is pop out, Alpha, pop back behind cover. Pop out Alpha, pop back into cover. Over and over and over, wash, rinse and repeat. Ugh....boring isn't the word. However I got a trip ER PPC build that requires me to constantly be cycling my ER PPCs in single shot mode and a very measured and controlled pace to effectively regulate heat with the occasional short range burst of ER SLs for close range precision strikes that is a total, pardon the pun, blast to play. It is just as effective as the laser vomit build but requires a hell of alot more skill and attention to detail. Same goes for my D with Dual Gauss, Dual SRM6 and Dual MPLs, nothing syncs at all so you have to deal with each weapon pair individually while monitoring ranges, charge up delays, different lead points, different cool down durations, etc. It is really challenging, interactive and excitng to play and again is just as effective as my "sync" built MAD-IIC, it just takes a bit more skill to get to that point.

[Mole]

God I'm so sick of everyone whining about every Clan 'mech that releases with a modicum of usefulness as being OP and campaigning for nerfs. Seriously guys. I've been fighting these things just as much lately as the rest of you and I have been able to solo kill them all by myself plenty of times in a variety of clan and IS 'mechs. Only change in gameplay I have noticed is a noticeable increase in clan ERPPCs which has made things a bit more difficult for my short range builds when both teams would rather trade sniper fire from opposite sides of Frozen City instead of actually moving to engage.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Mole, on 22 December 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

God I'm so sick of everyone whining about every Clan 'mech that releases with a modicum of usefulness as being OP and campaigning for nerfs. Seriously guys. I've been fighting these things just as much lately as the rest of you and I have been able to solo kill them all by myself plenty of times in a variety of clan and IS 'mechs. Only change in gameplay I have noticed is a noticeable increase in clan ERPPCs which has made things a bit more difficult for my short range builds when both teams would rather trade sniper fire from opposite sides of Frozen City instead of actually moving to engage.

That about sums up my general feeling on things as well. It just gets so damn old having to go over the same debates every time a new Clan mech comes out. Also it isn't like am a Clanboy either, about half my stable is IS mechs and I have a much greater amount of real $$$ invested in my IS collection so when I am on here arguing that Clan Mechs or Tech is not OP, it is because I honestly don't feel it is. I mean why the hell would I want to sabotage 1/2 the fricken mechs I own or want them to be under powered? At the same time I don't want my friken Clan mechs gimped any more than they already are. I mean the Clans have already had to sacrifice the cER LL and UACs in the name of balance to the point where I at least have removed both from my mechs as either worthless or next to worthless and it is getting to the point where playing Clan mechs is more an exercise in frustration than fun. Ironically I almost never feel that way when I am playing my poor little abused <sarcasm> IS mechs. Only issue I have at all with IS mechs is the challenges with using an XL engine in them. That insta-death to ST losses with IS XL is a damn frustrating mechanic even if I don't feel it is particularly unbalanced with things the way they are.

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

I hope this thread gets closed before any real damage gets done, I get nervous seeing this title crop up in discussion again and again. Seeing what happened to the Kodiak range, where the whole line got bashed due to one serious mistake.

Anyways again I am not really seeing overpowering results with the Marauder IIC. It's a strong performer but it's suppose to be (It's a fast assault). If people think this is a broken mech, please post some evidence or be done with this thread.

I can almost hear Lucille coming.

[Angel of Annihilation]

The Unstoppable Puggernaut, on 22 December 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

I hope this thread gets closed before any real damage gets done, I get nervous seeing this title crop up in discussion again and again. Seeing what happened to the Kodiak range, where the whole line got bashed due to one serious mistake.

Anyways again I am not really seeing overpowering results with the Marauder IIC. It's a strong performer but it's suppose to be (It's a fast assault). If people think this is a broken mech, please post some evidence or be done with this thread.

I can almost hear Lucille coming.

What? Posting that they were at one time killed by the 6 MAD-IICs per side in any given match isn't evidence enough?