581 replies to this topic

[RestosIII]

Arnold The Governator, on 04 January 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

Alright I'll bite and take the bait. How exactly is the Rifleman IIC a bad mech that's not wanted? (Not trying to stir up an argument, but I'm willing to hear the opinions of the opposite side that criticize it)

He's probably mostly referring to its engine size and the sombrero it has.

[Gas Guzzler]

Arnold The Governator, on 04 January 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

Alright I'll bite and take the bait. How exactly is the Rifleman IIC a bad mech that's not wanted? (Not trying to stir up an argument, but I'm willing to hear the opinions of the opposite side that criticize it)

Biggest concern is low engine cap on most variants, but they would have to make up a few variants, and they might go the same route they went with the Marauder IIC and mimic IS Rifleman hardpoint configs, which would probably turn out okay if they inherited the same stock speed as the IS Riflemans. TBH, it would probably end up in a good place if they went that route, but the stock 195 engine really kills the quad LPL build.

Edit: The sombrero is also a concern.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 04 January 2017 - 08:57 AM.

[RestosIII]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 January 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

Biggest concern is low engine cap on most variants, but they would have to make up a few variants, and they might go the same route they went with the Marauder IIC and mimic IS Rifleman hardpoint configs, which would probably turn out okay if they inherited the same stock speed as the IS Riflemans. TBH, it would probably end up in a good place if they went that route, but the stock 195 engine really kills the quad LPL build.

Edit: The sombrero is also a concern.

Oh yeah! I guessed right.

[Valdarion Silarius]

RestosIII, on 04 January 2017 - 08:54 AM, said:

He's probably mostly referring to its engine size and the sombrero it has.

Gas Guzzler, on 04 January 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

Biggest concern is low engine cap on most variants, but they would have to make up a few variants, and they might go the same route they went with the Marauder IIC and mimic IS Rifleman hardpoint configs, which would probably turn out okay if they inherited the same stock speed as the IS Riflemans. TBH, it would probably end up in a good place if they went that route, but the stock 195 engine really kills the quad LPL build.

Edit: The sombrero is also a concern.

Yeah, I understand that the standard engine that only goes 54 kmph is one of the biggest downfalls of the Prime. I ran all my loadouts in the MW:2 games with XL 260's with more DHS's that made the mech go 64.2 kmph. The heatsinks did a good job keeping the mech cool while chain firing the large pulse lasers. The 64.2 speed was adequate enough with jump jets (god forbid we get multi directional jump jets like from MW:2 in this game). The standard engine still shouldn't be frowned upon, since that means more survival for the mech and fire support for your assault buddies due to your slower speed. The jump jets were there in BT to help it with mobility.

The sombrero head hitbox issue is entirely up to how Alex and PGI designs the mech (if he goes the reseen route the radar dish will be relatively small, if he goes for a more classical unseen approach it still will not be that much larger). I personally like the BFS design (Big F***ing Sombrero) on the classic Tukayyid artwork. Most likely PGI will go with the reseen route judging by the Marauder IIC. In that case, the mech's profile will be slender. I'm crossing my fingers that the radar dish won't be accounted for a vulnerable head hit box area.

Speaking of enormously large sombreros, has anyone pointed fingers at the Glass Spider's huge hat radar dish? Notice how significantly larger than it's Rifleman IIC counterpart? (look at the spoiler below for comparison)

Spoiler

(MW:O concept fan art of the Galahad)


(The reseen Rifleman IIC that PGI will most likely go with)



(My favorite classic Rifleman IIC concept art that I hope PGI goes with, with maybe a smaller radar dish)

Edited by Arnold The Governator, 04 January 2017 - 09:42 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Arnold The Governator, on 04 January 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

Yeah, I understand that the standard engine that only goes 54 kmph is one of the biggest downfalls of the Prime. I ran all my loadouts in the MW:2 games with XL 260's with more DHS's that made the mech go 64.2 kmph. The heatsinks did a good job keeping the mech cool while chain firing the large pulse lasers. The 64.2 speed was adequate enough with jump jets (god forbid we get multi directional jump jets like from MW:2 in this game). The standard engine still shouldn't be frowned upon, since that means more survival for the mech and fire support for your assault buddies due to your slower speed. The jump jets were there in BT to help it with mobility.

The sombrero head hitbox issue is entirely up to how Alex and PGI designs the mech (if he goes the reseen route the radar dish will be relatively small, if he goes for a more classical unseen approach it still will not be that much larger). I personally like the BFS design (Big F***ing Sombrero) on the classic Tukayyid artwork. Most likely PGI will go with the reseen route judging by the Marauder IIC. In that case, the mech's profile will be slender. I'm crossing my fingers that the radar dish won't be accounted for a vulnerable head hit box area.

Speaking of enormously large sombreros, has anyone pointed fingers at the Glass Spider's huge hat radar dish? Notice how significantly larger than it's Rifleman IIC counterpart? (look at the spoiler below for comparison)

Spoiler

(MW:O concept fan art of the Galahad)


(The reseen Rifleman IIC that PGI will most likely go with)



(My favorite classic Rifleman IIC concept art that I hope PGI goes with, with maybe a smaller radar dish)

It does have some redeeming qualities... but we have 3 Clan 65 tonners, 1 Clan 60 tonner, and 1 Clan 70 tonner. I would prefer we bolster one of those weights, and the Nova Cat is a great option for that.

[Hit the Deck]

Arnold The Governator, on 04 January 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

(The reseen Rifleman IIC that PGI will most likely go with)

I sincerely hope not.

[Kanil]

The Rifleman IIC's engine cap might be sub-250. A 65 tonner with a poordub.

I mean, it's not going to be terrible by any means, but it's going to be too slow for many builds... unless PGI takes pity on it and buffs the engine cap.

[Juodas Varnas]

Hit the Deck, on 04 January 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

I sincerely hope not.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 January 2017 - 09:43 AM, said:

It does have some redeeming qualities... but we have 3 Clan 65 tonners, 1 Clan 60 tonner, and 1 Clan 70 tonner. I would prefer we bolster one of those weights, and the Nova Cat is a great option for that.

There is only three downsides that I see with the Nova Cat. I'd still to prefer have both mechs in game since I had alot of fun with the Nova Cat in MW:LL and will make some interesting builds.

1. It's an Omnimech with only torso level arm mounted weapons. Sure, you might argue that the Rifleman IIC is primarily arm mounted. However, It has 5 high laser hard points compared to the Nova Cats lower weapon profile. You can also squeeze a few weapons in the Rifleman IIC's chest like the Glass Spider 2. The fact that is also an omnimech will mean locked engines and less customization (not like you wanted to downgrade that XL to a standard anyways).

2. That chest is screaming CT. This is all going back to how PGI and Alex implements the mech in game. The arms are in fact protecting the side torsos in torso twisting, but I'm willing to bet that chest bulge will be the primary target once those arms are shot off. The Rifleman IIC still has a chance to survival with the head mounted laser hard point if it's arms are shot off.

3. People would want the other clans in game if they were to implement the Nova Cat, since it was the Nova Cat's totem mech. While I'm not against this by any means, PGI will be forced to add other clans in the game and will be forced to address the main issue of future tech. I'm not defending PGI's decision by making their own variants, but do realize that the Nova Cat was first fielded in 3059 (Yes, I'm well aware that Russ stated that they are willing to cut corners with the BT timeline). However, that will pressure them to add future tech since that mech is literally one year off before the TRO 3060 timeline. It will also trigger more salty bitter vets due to the lack of future tech.

I think the main issue with the Nova Cat and the Mad Cat Mk.2 is PGI's willingness to avoid future tech. While I believe that these mechs shouldn't be held hostage due to the timeline, I think PGI needs to start handing out applications to people that are willing to fix the game and edit the .xml files for the new weapon systems.

[Gas Guzzler]

Arnold The Governator, on 04 January 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

There is only three downsides that I see with the Nova Cat. I'd still to prefer have both mechs in game since I had alot of fun with the Nova Cat in MW:LL and will make some interesting builds.

1. It's an Omnimech with only torso level arm mounted weapons. Sure, you might argue that the Rifleman IIC is primarily arm mounted. However, It has 5 high laser hard points compared to the Nova Cats lower weapon profile. You can also squeeze a few weapons in the Rifleman IIC's chest like the Glass Spider 2. The fact that is also an omnimech will mean locked engines and less customization (not like you wanted to downgrade that XL to a standard anyways).

2. That chest is screaming CT. This is all going back to how PGI and Alex implements the mech in game. The arms are in fact protecting the side torsos in torso twisting, but I'm willing to bet that chest bulge will be the primary target once those arms are shot off. The Rifleman IIC still has a chance to survival with the head mounted laser hard point if it's arms are shot off.

3. People would want the other clans in game if they were to implement the Nova Cat, since it was the Nova Cat's totem mech. While I'm not against this by any means, PGI will be forced to add other clans in the game and will be forced to address the main issue of future tech. I'm not defending PGI's decision by making their own variants, but do realize that the Nova Cat was first fielded in 3059 (Yes, I'm well aware that Russ stated that they are willing to cut corners with the BT timeline). However, that will pressure them to add future tech since that mech is literally one year off before the TRO 3060 timeline. It will also trigger more salty bitter vets due to the lack of future tech.

I think the main issue with the Nova Cat and the Mad Cat Mk.2 is PGI's willingness to avoid future tech. While I believe that these mechs shouldn't be held hostage due to the timeline, I think PGI needs to start handing out applications to people that are willing to fix the game and edit the .xml files for the new weapon systems.

The Nova Cat has one config with an E hardpoint in each shoulder, and you have the option of JJs as well, it just comes with a little restriction in the form of which omni-pod you use to gain the JJ. And yes it has arm weapons, but they aren't exactly low.

Timeline isn't really an issue here, they would only need to make up 1 variant and a hero to avoid the future tech on the Nova Cat (The -D has heavy lasers, so you have Prime, A, B, C, Made up variant -P, and a hero. No problem.)

[RestosIII]

Arnold The Governator, on 04 January 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

3. People would want the other clans in game if they were to implement the Nova Cat, since it was the Nova Cat's totem mech.

That mob (me included) is already at Russ' door screaming to be let in. And they're running out of popular mechs for the Clans that won't be from second wave Clans. We'll get in eventually, no matter how hard PGI tries to resist.

[Hawk819]

RestosIII, on 04 January 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

That mob (me included) is already at Russ' door screaming to be let in. And they're running out of popular mechs for the Clans that won't be from second wave Clans. We'll get in eventually, no matter how hard PGI tries to resist.

There're plenty of Second-line and SLDF `Mechs to choose from.

During the Golden Age:

Pulverizer
Wolverine II
Woodsman
Coyotl
Stag
Stag II


During the Invasion:

Baboon
Peregrine
Viper (Black Python)
Kraken
Hellhound
Goshawk
Galahad
Behemoth

IIC still left to go:

Wyvern
Guillotine
Commando
Clint
Griffin
Shadow Hawk
Phoenix Hawk
Wolfhound
BattleMaster


There are a lot to choose from, and Russ said that we still have more to add to this game, Including Mad Cat Mk's II, III, and IV, and the Nova Cat. Just to name a few. However, at this time, the Clans do lack a 20 ton `Mech, and I recommend both the Baboon and Fire Moth, cause they both carry a `MASC system.

[Gas Guzzler]

Hawk819, on 04 January 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

There are a lot to choose from, and Russ said that we still have more to add to this game, Including Mad Cat Mk's II, III, and IV, and the Nova Cat.

I wasn't aware that he planned to release all of these. Is there a source for that?

[RestosIII]

Hawk819, on 04 January 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

There're plenty of Second-line and SLDF `Mechs to choose from.

During the Golden Age:

Pulverizer
Wolverine II
Woodsman
Coyotl
Stag
Stag II


During the Invasion:

Baboon
Peregrine
Viper (Black Python)
Kraken
Hellhound
Goshawk
Galahad
Behemoth

IIC still left to go:

Wyvern
Guillotine
Commando
Clint
Griffin
Shadow Hawk
Phoenix Hawk
Wolfhound
BattleMaster


There are a lot to choose from, and Russ said that we still have more to add to this game, Including Mad Cat Mk's II, III, and IV, and the Nova Cat. Just to name a few. However, at this time, the Clans do lack a 20 ton `Mech, and I recommend both the Baboon and Fire Moth, cause they both carry a `MASC system.

A decent chunk of those IIC's were the beautiful babies of second wave Clans. And trust me, I want the Mad Cat MK II, but the III and IV are no-go's IMO. They cross over the line too far even for me.

[Elrik Stormbringer]

Clan list needs Phantom! I love that little thing.

[Metus regem]

RestosIII, on 04 January 2017 - 11:07 AM, said:

A decent chunk of those IIC's were the beautiful babies of second wave Clans. And trust me, I want the Mad Cat MK II, but the III and IV are no-go's IMO. They cross over the line too far even for me.

Well we can scratch the Mk IV off the list, that thing is utter hot garbage.... XXL (ST death for Clan mechs, extra waste heat all for a slight weight savings over a standard XL:).... that thing would need both XXL and FL armour techs to be added to MWO...

The Mk III isn't too bad actually... and the Mad Cat Mk, III -4 is actually 90% viable in MWO, would just need to have micro lasers... but those are easy enough to replace with two ERSL... On top of that it would have a Storm Crow type movement profile.

[RestosIII]

Metus regem, on 04 January 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

Well we can scratch the Mk IV off the list, that thing is utter hot garbage.... XXL (ST death for Clan mechs, extra waste heat all for a slight weight savings over a standard XL:).... that thing would need both XXL and FL armour techs to be added to MWO...

The Mk III isn't too bad actually... and the Mad Cat Mk, III -4 is actually 90% viable in MWO, would just need to have micro lasers... but those are easy enough to replace with two ERSL... On top of that it would have a Storm Crow type movement profile.

I'm still in the camp of feeling like the prime variant of a mech needs to have in-game tech still for it to be added, and I don't have high hopes for PGI adding any new tech any time soon. That, and I was just never that interested in the MK III personally.

[Metus regem]

RestosIII, on 04 January 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

I'm still in the camp of feeling like the prime variant of a mech needs to have in-game tech still for it to be added, and I don't have high hopes for PGI adding any new tech any time soon. That, and I was just never that interested in the MK III personally.

Fair enough, the first time I fought a Mk III, it was the Mk III-X with FL armour, it was also my first introduction to FL armour... ugh that little ******* took 20% more damage than any other 55 tonner I've ever had to fight thanks to the damage reduction of 1 point per 5 taken....

My hate for the Mk IV comes from playing against it and watching it crumple as soon as a ST is opened up, 4 engine crit slots in each ST make it really soft... and that weight savings it as over the normal 375xl is all spent on DHS that it needs to not over heat from moving... (2/4/6 extra heat from standing/walking/running)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Metus regem, on 04 January 2017 - 11:37 AM, said:

Fair enough, the first time I fought a Mk III, it was the Mk III-X with FL armour, it was also my first introduction to FL armour... ugh that little ******* took 20% more damage than any other 55 tonner I've ever had to fight thanks to the damage reduction of 1 point per 5 taken....

FL armor is pretty amazing, easily better usage of BV and tonnage than hardened imo. It makes 55 tonners take roughly as much damage as a 70 tonner or something like that (been a while since I did the math). I created a munchkin "Black Hawk II" of sorts that used it, Partial Wings, and 2 ERPPCs with brutal efficiency at 55 tons.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 January 2017 - 12:19 PM.

[Battlemaster56]

Hawk819, on 04 January 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

There're plenty of Second-line and SLDF `Mechs to choose from.

During the Golden Age:

Pulverizer
Wolverine II
Woodsman
Coyotl
Stag
Stag II


During the Invasion:

Baboon
Peregrine
Viper (Black Python)
Kraken
Hellhound
Goshawk
Galahad
Behemoth

IIC still left to go:

Wyvern
Guillotine
Commando
Clint
Griffin
Shadow Hawk
Phoenix Hawk
Wolfhound
BattleMaster


There are a lot to choose from, and Russ said that we still have more to add to this game, Including Mad Cat Mk's II, III, and IV, and the Nova Cat. Just to name a few. However, at this time, the Clans do lack a 20 ton `Mech, and I recommend both the Baboon and Fire Moth, cause they both carry a `MASC system.

Theirs no Battlemaster IIC's in battletech, only the Jade Falcon captured refits.

Example: BattleMaster C This variant was designed in 3070 by Clan Jade Falcon scientists following the capture of Red Devil Industries during the FedCom Civil War. This 'Mech is built on an Endo Steel chassis protected by sixteen and a half tons of armor. Based on the 4S, the Clan-tech variant replaces the gauss rifle with a Hyper-Assault Gauss Rifle 30 and four tons of ammunition. All the medium lasers are front facing, with four medium pulse lasers and two ER medium lasers. All of these weapons are guided by a Targeting Computer. The short-range missile launcher is replaced with an ATM 6 and three tons of ammunition to ensure the ability to make use of the flexibility offered by the Advanced Tactical Missile System.^[48][41] BV (1.0) = ?, BV (2.0) = 3,025<sup>[49]

Also you forgot the Thunderbolt IIC, Urbanmech IIC, Javelin, and Beowulf IIC.</sup>