139 replies to this topic

[RestosIII]

Rampage, on 21 January 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

I thought the Prime got a big adjustment on the PPC velocity on that right arm. Did I read that wrong? I was under the impression that it was done because people would equip the energy torso along with the Prime RA to get ridiculous erPPC velocity when combines with a big TC.

The Prime only got some of its cooldown quirks moved over to a ST, so if you are still using the old 2 PPC arm build, you're fine.

[Bud Crue]

Catra Lanis, on 21 January 2017 - 04:03 PM, said:

I'm inclined to agree with RestosIII here that it is indeed an XP bar. Like him I'm roughly average at best and I'm in T2. I got there from T4 when the system was introduced after 1000 matches in a Victor-9K. Average player+below average mech, it should not happen even after 1000 matches.

I had no idea his was still up for debate. As I've done before when this has come up: go look me up on the leader boards. I'll wait.

Okay, see that? Pretty objective evidence that I am terrible at this game. I play lore builds, I play crap mechs (Phracts, Panther 10P, Victors and Quickdraws for the most part) I play group queue almost exclusively where me and my mostly fellow casuals get rolled fairly frequently.

And yet I am nearing T2.

Go look at the stats again. I think I am ranked at like 11000 or something. Yet I will soon be in Tier 2? WTF? I should not be anywhere near T2. I should be back in T5 where I belong. Yet within the next month or so I suspect I will cross the line into the "better than average" echelon of this game. No, Tier is not an indicator of skill. It is at best an indicator of endurance.

[Cy Mitchell]

RestosIII, on 21 January 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

The Prime only got some of its cooldown quirks moved over to a ST, so if you are still using the old 2 PPC arm build, you're fine.

Ok, I am not crazy or blind. I went back to the November Patch notes and checked the quirks on the Summoner. At that time, the Summoner had a 30% velocity quirk on the RA. As of the quirk listing for this last patch, it is showing that there was no change to that velocity quirk but it is now listed as 10%. Also the Prime in the online store shows that it has a 40% velocity quirk overall right now. However, if you add the velocity quirks up for the Prime as it will be after Tuesday according to the spreadsheet then you only come up with a possible 20% quirk and that is with you not changing omni-pods so that you get the 10% from the Set of 8.

Either the spreadsheet is wrong or the RA lost 20% erPPC velocity. Actually, either way the spreadsheet is wrong. I do think that combining the 30% velocity quirk from the RA with the 10% velocity quirk from the energy torso and the energy cooldown quriks made the Summoner too good. That is exactly what I was going to do if I decided to spend $40 extra to get the Loyalty Summoner.

[Mystere]

MacClearly, on 21 January 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

Yup, you could argue that. It would however make it a worse game and not competitive. So the dreams of it being an esport would be out and PGI should then turn to Disney in hopes to market it to kiddies.

Dreams sometime eventually have to face reality. In PGI's case, that reality is probably rooted on economics and the niche nature of the BT IP.

Star Commander Horse, on 21 January 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:

chuhai

Damn! I need to get myself some of those.

In the meantime, I'm going to make do with this:

Edited by Mystere, 21 January 2017 - 06:25 PM.

[Bradigus]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 January 2017 - 04:02 PM, said:

Dude, the Summoner is one of the best heavies in the game, its still gonna be pretty good.

No it is not. It is better than some septic tank inner wall scrapings like the Dragon, Archer or the Orion by virtue of having one viable brawler build, but it is by no means "one of the best." Before the loyalty pods, the "best" laser vomit a suckoner could do was 2x LPL and 2x EMRL. That is utterly pathetic, worse firepower than an inner sphere 60 ton mech.

Other "stellar examples" of the suckoners builds before the loyalty variants omnipods include horse manure piles like: 1x ERPPC + 1x LBX10 + 1x SRM6. UAC10 + 4xERML. 4x ERML + 2x UAC5. None of these builds having enough ammunition to kill more than one mech, of course.

The shift of the energy heat gen quirks into the side torsos pretty much only screws over the 6x MPL, Gauss + 5x ERML and 2x LPL + 4x ERML builds that finally became possible with loyalty pods. Builds that weren't any better than inner sphere laser vomit or other clan laser vomit options, just comparable. Due to the locked nonsense on the Summoner, it can't bring weapons and still have enough heatsinks to remain cool. The -10% energy heat generation enabled bog standard builds to finally function on the Summoner. Taking that away, all those builds become one shot wonders.

The changes to both the Summoner and the Shadowcat do nothing but limit both chassis and build diversity.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

RestosIII, on 21 January 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

I'm absolutely **** at this game, and I'm in T2, and rising. PSR is just an XP bar.

Not even a difficult one to fill... I filled up half T2 in like 2 days of play just to prove a point to MacClearly using nothing but my AWS-8R. It was not even hard to do... I just stopped leveling the subpar mechs I have left to do and jumped into a mech that allowed me to carry the entire team more often then not, and *poof* I was Tier 1.

[Navid A1]

Let me tell you the reason:

The guy deciding on this changes has no idea how the game is played. They gather data in an unknown way, and decide based on those.

After all... we the community don't know how to design a game. So how could we know anything related to the game in any way?

[Cybrid 0x0t2md2w]

I personally saw no reason for the sadcat nerfs. it's already limited to what it can do thanks to hard points and tonnage left over from locked equipment. give us a 45 ton clan battlemech with jumpjets and an ecm variant and nobody but the few will use the sadcat again.

but then I mostly play my chew cookies of death so I don't care much.

[Besh]

I am honestly thinking they are doing a lot of "blanket nerfs" to baseline down quite a few things/'Mechs, and its connected to SkillTree development, as well as the upcoming timeline advance .

To me it seems someone has finally understood that "balance" has been done pretty badly in some things ("shuffling around quirks" ), and wants to "normalize" a lot of stuff quite a bit to be able to gather actually meaningfull Data .

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

Time to move on again and find new green pasture folks.

Might be worth asking if there's any viable replacements.

I can see a couple of people using a PPC on a viper, odd idea but does anyone know if that works?

Also I am guessing Night Gyr is the slow replacement for the summoner. I tried dual PPC in the nips + Gauss, I found it was very good but... too hot. No chance of cooling that down.

[Tristan Winter]

The Unstoppable Puggernaut, on 22 January 2017 - 03:45 AM, said:

Also I am guessing Night Gyr is the slow replacement for the summoner. I tried dual PPC in the nips + Gauss, I found it was very good but... too hot. No chance of cooling that down.

People often use dual gauss + 1 PPC.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c1065aaa988a2fc

80 rounds of gauss ammo, unless you want to sacrifice ammo for targeting computers.

How did dual PPCs end up being too hot for you? Seems like you could easily get 40% heat efficiency or more, which is above average for meta builds.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0931b3828c6b652

I am worried that PGI's next step will be to deal with the Kodiak, Night Gyr and Hunchback IIC... by nerfing Clan Gauss and CERPPC. Which means the bad Clan mechs get shafted even more, unless PGI finally gives them some decent quirks.

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

The dual gauss build seemed to rack up the damage for me but never the kills. I strongly strongly believe there's a serious convergence issue going on. Having hit and been hit by the dual gauss/ppc design.

The dual PPC build is really good for convergence but not perfect IMO because of the side/lower angle arm. The heat really isn't friendly. Most clan mechs run hot after two snaps of the dual PPC's. Third strike is asking for trouble but still this build got me kills and damage.

I keep swapping between the two but overall I can't take this design into FW, it can never provide me the high/rapid DPS FW needs.

I tried a multi UAC build for the Gyr but it's so unpredictable with the horrible jams, I cannot take that into FW either.

Love the mech but I just can't fit it with anything stable/reliable for my playstyle.

[Deathlike]

I feel like I have to reiterate the most important aspect here.

Comp play and comp players themselves are the minority. This means that the datasets PGI has been gathering are for the masses. The problem however is that the masses tend to be subpar.. at least "not competent" (aka slightly below average). This is problematic when you're using that data.

I'm not entirely sure what the top tier guys think of the Scat, but AFAIK, the Scat is a mediocre mech at best and definitely NOT the first choice in medium selection (that goes the HBK-IIC, particularly the A variant). If for any reason a comp player is using it, it's because of ECM and sniping ability... but it doesn't have any real sustainability AND it's fragile by design even despite the additional agility in the form of MASC. It's good enough for scouting and relocating, but at that point you're kinda better off using an Ice Ferret if you're going to use it for a more traditional "fat Light" role or you would better off considering a Nova or a Huntsman for a PPC role AFTER selecting the HBK-IIC-A first.


TL;DR

PGI is deciding "rebalancing" through the eyes of below average to mediocre players... and when the Scat is seen as mediocre at the top, it says a lot about how PGI does not understand the relative power level of the Scat. It may be "popular" by the masses, but it's simply not that good (functional and playable, but still not good) and by nerfing it... it reinforces the fact that PGI does not understand their own game.

Edited by Deathlike, 22 January 2017 - 08:53 AM.

[Mystere]

Deathlike, on 22 January 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

TL;DR

PGI is deciding "rebalancing" through the eyes of below average to mediocre players... and when the Scat is seen as mediocre at the top, it says a lot about how PGI does not understand the relative power level of the Scat. It may be "popular" by the masses, but it's simply not that good (functional and playable, but still not good) and by nerfing it... it reinforces the fact that PGI does not understand their own game.

As I said on other threads, it's economics vs. science. If keeping the masses happy is what it takes to improve income, that's what going to be done. Whether you or I like it or not makes no difference.

<I have completely forgotten how even a single day spent in solitude works wonders in changing one's perspectives, even if only temporary.>

Edited by Mystere, 22 January 2017 - 09:01 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

StaggerCheck, on 21 January 2017 - 09:21 AM, said:

PGI is never going to achieve game balance so long as we're allowed the level of freedom we currently enjoy in the Mech Lab.

We are a strange player base to appease, are we not? Lore-hounds want Clan Mechs to over-power Inner Sphere Mechs because 'reasons'. Players who want a fair gaming experience don't want any difference at all between the two, screw the game canon. The guy complaining today about nerfs to his favourite Mech was, two weeks ago, bragging about how amazing his favourite Mech is. Nerf that Mech, PGI, why are you so horrible at game balance... it is too powerful!! Hey, why did you nerf my amazing Mech that topped the leaderboards by a country mile?! F-you, PGI...

I love it around here.

Well I've been called a lore hound, but I do see why P.G.I are trying to balance clans this way.

I just don't understand why they give mechs like the Warhammer ballistic buffs, encouraging the ac5 and guass builds and then take away quirks that are needed for any of it's other possible less comp builds. if it's OP which I doubt as they always give very vague reasons, why not just clip it's offensive ballistic strengths and keep the structure, that to me makes more sense.

I don't think that people around here except the most rabid, rage about P.G.I trying to balance the game everyone with a modicum of sense wants that, what gets people hackles up is the nonsensical why they go about it.

Why remove the shadowcats leg structure, the only thing it's really any good at is a poptart, and for lower down the ranks a missile striker.

The leg nerfs are not really going to effect it's poptarting by good players, but the not so good that can't pop aim, shot and feather the fall are going to just stop playing this mech that way and probably stop playing it altogether

Edited by Cathy, 22 January 2017 - 09:19 AM.

[Revis Volek]

They were poptarts, we know how scared of poptarts paul is.


IF it can jump and shoot it cannot exist here, its that simple. They dont want diverse game play they want potato slug fests.

[Tristan Winter]

Revis Volek, on 22 January 2017 - 09:42 AM, said:

They were poptarts, we know how scared of poptarts paul is.


IF it can jump and shoot it cannot exist here, its that simple. They dont want diverse game play they want potato slug fests.

Paul actually went on record after the great poptart meta was hexa-nerfed (jump jet nerf, jump jet shake, gauss charge, ppc projectile speed and ballistic speed reduced) and said that he wanted poptarting to be a viable playstyle in MWO. That was ~2 years ago, so he may have changed his mind, of course.

I still haven't figured out if certain things are deliberate or if they happen by accident. I think that's why the dartboard jokes are common. It's hard to spot any kind of consistent logic. Even bittervets who accuse PGI of P2W balancing are scratching their heads.

Edited by Tristan Winter, 22 January 2017 - 09:47 AM.

[InspectorG]

MacClearly, on 21 January 2017 - 07:02 AM, said:

The Summoner is directly due to incessant whining from the usual 'it's not fair' and 'it's behind a paywall' crowd.

The Shadow Cat however, is far more hilarious. Although only my own theory, I strongly suspect that the spike in numbers of its 'overperformance' has a lot to with with it being the only option in FW if you run three 65 ton mechs... The spike in usage is a direct result of it being an only choice more than anything.

I would venture that 'spike' affects the Summoner as well.

Also a bias of, pre-Loyalty 'OP' pods, that only a handful of players ran Summoners and they tended to be decent. You cant tell me Summoners pre-loyalty performed as well as Hellbies ot Timbys.

ECM Shadcats literally harvests potatoes in Solo because newbs dont know the maps and cant aim and bads cant play well anyhow. PSR working as intended.

[InspectorG]

Tristan Winter, on 22 January 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

I still haven't figured out if certain things are deliberate or if they happen by accident. I think that's why the dartboard jokes are common. It's hard to spot any kind of consistent logic. Even bittervets who accuse PGI of P2W balancing are scratching their heads.

I think its too much 'balance by spreadsheet' and not enough time in the pilot seat.

Only GOOD scenario i can think of is PGI figured it out and this willy-nilly-azz balacing is a blanket reset that Skill Tree will bring back up to baseline after players spend XP to get their quirks back. Who knows?

[Gas Guzzler]

Bradigus, on 22 January 2017 - 12:53 AM, said:

No it is not. It is better than some septic tank inner wall scrapings like the Dragon, Archer or the Orion by virtue of having one viable brawler build, but it is by no means &quot;one of the best.&quot; Before the loyalty pods, the &quot;best&quot; laser vomit a suckoner could do was 2x LPL and 2x EMRL. That is utterly pathetic, worse firepower than an inner sphere 60 ton mech.

Other &quot;stellar examples&quot; of the suckoners builds before the loyalty variants omnipods include horse manure piles like: 1x ERPPC + 1x LBX10 + 1x SRM6. UAC10 + 4xERML. 4x ERML + 2x UAC5. None of these builds having enough ammunition to kill more than one mech, of course.

The shift of the energy heat gen quirks into the side torsos pretty much only screws over the 6x MPL, Gauss + 5x ERML and 2x LPL + 4x ERML builds that finally became possible with loyalty pods. Builds that weren't any better than inner sphere laser vomit or other clan laser vomit options, just comparable. Due to the locked nonsense on the Summoner, it can't bring weapons and still have enough heatsinks to remain cool. The -10% energy heat generation enabled bog standard builds to finally function on the Summoner. Taking that away, all those builds become one shot wonders.

The changes to both the Summoner and the Shadowcat do nothing but limit both chassis and build diversity.

Take 2ER PPCs and stack DHS and a TC1 and call it a day. If brawling take 5 SRM6s w/ artemis and call it a day.