121 replies to this topic

[Mycroft000]

Tesunie, on 27 January 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

Among the people I play with(across several units, who I've played with from when I was tier 5 to now), we tend to consider 300 the starting point of pulling your own weight. That is of course assuming you're not running something like a Locust.

Tesunie, on 27 January 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

10 ERSL is where I have my Breaker along with 4 MG, but honestly the Machine guns are wasted tonnage, you'd think the crit seeking feature would be beneficial, but ditching the MGs for more heatsinks destroys more components.

Tesunie, on 27 January 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

I really don't use UACs for the most part unless I can run 3-6 of them.

Tesunie, on 27 January 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

I can see that working decently, but would likely carry too few tons of ammo for my taste on running LRMS.

Tesunie, on 27 January 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

Just screenshot your mechlab and make the changes and swap it back, I do it constantly.

Tesunie, on 27 January 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

I will say, now that I've changed build #2 from 6 ERML to 4MPL, it's like a totally different mech, multiple 500+ damage multiple kill matches. If build #2 gets picked I'll pick it up and make that change but I still think 6 ERML is too hot for new players. I know everyone thinks that Ghost Heat is more problematic, but it really isn't that difficult of a concept. The first time you turn your CT yellow from firing both arms at once you learn not to do it again. After that my build makes you extremely conscious of heat management to the point where I'm not afraid of piloting even the hottest builds on Terra Therma anymore.

Tesunie, on 27 January 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

I've also run dual torso mounted PPCs, full ballistic builds(including one for scouting I've tested before with 1 UAC20 and 5MG), and many many other builds trying to see what all I can wring out of the Nova, it is without a doubt my favorite mech.

Tesunie, on 27 January 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

And this is where we'll have to agree to disagree, everyone in my unit who's tried my build, including our self professed LRM boat pilot, has been able to give above average performance in my build.

Tesunie, on 27 January 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

​Definitely try the 4MPL build, it's shockingly good, I don't usually like them but on this it's a good enough heat management that it can actually keep fighting for a lot longer than the 6ERML.

Tesunie, on 27 January 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

I will say doing the 1 ERLL with 6 ERSL on Build #2 does work well this way, having a single large laser keeps it from running too hot and the 6 smalls let you do some serious damage up close.

[Dee Eight]

The way to test build #2 is to actually use the AMS to shield the more offensive team members...the kodiaks, the maulers, etc.... the things that DRAW a lot of missile fire. You shouldn't be hunting in the thing until you've shot your AMS bins dry. 4000 rounds is enough to kill about 444 incoming missiles. That's 444 damage you've stopped against your team. THAT is the purpose of the mech and why its a good team skill building mech for new players.

[Mycroft000]

Dee Eight, on 28 January 2017 - 01:50 AM, said:

The way to test build #2 is to actually use the AMS to shield the more offensive team members...the kodiaks, the maulers, etc.... the things that DRAW a lot of missile fire. You shouldn't be hunting in the thing until you've shot your AMS bins dry. 4000 rounds is enough to kill about 444 incoming missiles. That's 444 damage you've stopped against your team. THAT is the purpose of the mech and why its a good team skill building mech for new players.

Why would a new player know that's how to use it?

[Dee Eight]

They're more likely to know that than that they need to be suicide close to use 12 ERSL to deal damage or that they cannot fire all 12 closer together than six every 0.5 seconds. Even if they are on two fire groups of six, many players will just hit both mouse buttons simultaneously. 12 ERSL is 92 heat. That Nova has a total heat capacity of 68. So the first badly timed shot puts a newplayer into auto-shutdown (as even with the current 10% energy heat reduction quirk, a new player won't have the 20% extra capacity WE as owners of elited mechs or the 15% increase in cooling rate). I got away with ONE 12-shot on the frozen city map and it put my gauge at 96%...and then I fired again as soon as the lasers recycled and the shutdown lasted 15 seconds and I came back online with overheat damage to my CT structure.

WE owners of elite nova's, cannot properly test champion build proposals that have heat issues, for how they will work with new players...because we cannot disable the skills unlocked (except in private lobby match games as part of the stock-mode options list I believe).

Edited by Dee Eight, 28 January 2017 - 10:00 AM.

[Mycroft000]

You're correct, private lobby is the best place for testing the heat issues. But when it comes to the assumption that they'll know how to use AMS functionally, it's no different than my assumption that they'll learn from one or two times of firing all 12 before they learn not to do it. I think heat is an easier lesson learned than proper placement to best provide cover to teammates with AMS.

And as I've said before, Build #2 shuts down on the third alpha, and that's with all efficiencies unlocked.

Edit:

Okay so private lobby matches:

Build #1 can cycle between arms for a total of 7 shots with the 8th shot overheating me and doing 1% damage to my CT.

Build #2 can cycle between arms for a total of 5 shots with the 6th shot overheating me and doing 1% damage to my CT. I do have to give credit to the AMS, if I go against LRMS I can ignore a Mad Dog with 6x LRM5 entirely.

Edited by mycroft000, 28 January 2017 - 05:30 PM.

[Mycroft000]

I'd like to see everyone who's participating in this debate join me in private matches and let's thoroughly work both builds through testing. I feel like I've given my best effort to doing "real world" testing to these but with only a few players in the lobby with me I can't truly say I've tested it as thoroughly as I'd like.

[Larsh]

Hey everyone. I was able to join in mycroft000's private lobby to go over some build testing. Was able to try out my default 6ML, and a build suggestion of 4 MPL.

After running all night in both, I find each one to be equal in my opinion.

With the 4MPL you have an alpha of 32, heat management of 1.41, and a cool-down rate of 3.

With the 6ML you have and alpha of 42, heat management of 1.2, and the same cool-down rate of 3.

----------

With the 4MPL you gain a cooler mech, so one can alpha more often and run less of a risk of overheating. But, have a optimal range of 330. This is very effective at brawling.

With the 6ML you have a slightly hotter mech, but gain an optimal range of 405. This is effective at mid / long range if you so wanted.

-----------

It might just be personal preference, but I still found myself going back to 6ML for the extra range.

I greatly enjoy both options of the MPL and ML. But at this point, if this mech is chosen for the trial champ mech, I leave it to the Devs to make the final decision.


---Larsh "Casual Mechwarrior"

[Mycroft000]

I'm hoping to get more testing going if anyone is up for it. Ideally we could get a couple of teams together to do some private lobby tests.

[Tesunie]

I may delete some of your post, but only to conserve room and/or because the point has been made and no counter point needs to be stated.

mycroft000, on 27 January 2017 - 11:34 PM, said:

Among the people I play with(across several units, who I've played with from when I was tier 5 to now), we tend to consider 300 the starting point of pulling your own weight. That is of course assuming you're not running something like a Locust.

The average I've typically seen for "participation" has been 200-250 damage, but then again damage isn't everything. I tend to aim for 5 damage per ton invested in the battle, for efficiency sake. But even then, I do count in things that may cause no damage but is still helpful to a team. Like, if I can distract 2 or more enemies from my team for some time, even if I die after a time, that could be the moment that let my team push and kill the rest of their team. Even if I did little to no damage, that is something I consider. Not to mention damage "value", such as damage that is likely to kill or disable a target, compared to damage used to "take out a Centurion's shield arm".

I'm not trying to counter your unit's concept here, as it's just a personal measure of ability, and in the end it's a matter of the individual player to figure out how they felt about their performance. Sometimes, the stats just don't tell the full story. (As I'm sure you already know.)

mycroft000, on 27 January 2017 - 11:34 PM, said:

10 ERSL is where I have my Breaker along with 4 MG, but honestly the Machine guns are wasted tonnage, you'd think the crit seeking feature would be beneficial, but ditching the MGs for more heatsinks destroys more components.

If I could sit with a new player, I might very well suggest your build. Honestly, if your build became the champion build, I wouldn't be too bothered by it either. I have my concerns about how new players (without guidance) would handle in it, but it's not as bad as some other Champion builds already in the game. If they can figure it out, it can be very deadly. If they can't, I'm worried about the frustration it could produce.

As for the MGs, it's about heat management there. The ERSLs deal most of the bulk of the damage, and you need to keep it on there for only a short burn time. MGs need continuous face time and accuracy, which means the extra cooling the DHS provide lets you use those more deadly ERSLs more often and for longer. Thus, it deals more damage in the end.

mycroft000, on 27 January 2017 - 11:34 PM, said:

I really don't use UACs for the most part unless I can run 3-6 of them.

Before the UAC nerf, I'd inform you of some good things you might be missing out on (play style dependent of course). After the nerf? It's now the only way to use an UAC. Boat them, or they jam too often to even be of any use to you anymore. And when they do jam, expect to die before they manage to unjam. (One nerf of the other would not have been too bad, but the two together? Been having to change a lot of my Clan builds...)

mycroft000, on 27 January 2017 - 11:34 PM, said:

I can see that working decently, but would likely carry too few tons of ammo for my taste on running LRMS.

My D has 4.5 tons of ammo for the two LRM15s it has equipped. It's typically more than it needs in an average game play. I also tend to use my LRMs more so for the opening moves of the game, then fall to the lasers for the mid game action, and then (probably due to damage) fall back to the LRM role if possible for the end game (because otherwise, I probably would die).

mycroft000, on 27 January 2017 - 11:34 PM, said:

Just screenshot your mechlab and make the changes and swap it back, I do it constantly.

Naw. I recreate the builds in Smurfy, then bookmark them in a folder called "Mech Builds". Then I can easily and quickly post them on the forums if anyone asks for them (or I need an example for something, most times as an example of a mixed weapons platform that works well (for me)).

I am trying the #2 build out now for the record...

mycroft000, on 27 January 2017 - 11:34 PM, said:

I will say, now that I've changed build #2 from 6 ERML to 4MPL, it's like a totally different mech, multiple 500+ damage multiple kill matches. If build #2 gets picked I'll pick it up and make that change but I still think 6 ERML is too hot for new players. I know everyone thinks that Ghost Heat is more problematic, but it really isn't that difficult of a concept. The first time you turn your CT yellow from firing both arms at once you learn not to do it again. After that my build makes you extremely conscious of heat management to the point where I'm not afraid of piloting even the hottest builds on Terra Therma anymore.

As stated above, I've actually been running that build now. I've only done a single match, and quickly got up to 250+ damage before I was "put down" from rather poor positioning and a team that moved away from me (I was placed in a spawn away from the rest of the team).

It does run a little toasty, but not so hot it isn't manageable. Of course, I state this with the realization that my Nova's are mastered out and that I have those benefits (which I can't turn off in game). AMS didn't get used at all, but it seemed solid still to me so far in my testing. (I intend to test it more still.)

mycroft000, on 27 January 2017 - 11:34 PM, said:

I've also run dual torso mounted PPCs, full ballistic builds(including one for scouting I've tested before with 1 UAC20 and 5MG), and many many other builds trying to see what all I can wring out of the Nova, it is without a doubt my favorite mech.

You see, I like the Nova from my MW2 days, as well as from the artwork. It's a cool mech (or maybe a hot mech is more appropriate? Eh eh? Get it?) design and I've always liked how it looks. Before the Huntsman came out, I was all Novas and loving them. After the Huntsman release... I LOVE them even more. The Nova is still one of my favorites... but I just love that Huntsman. Many of my Nova builds got placed right onto the Huntsmen, with maybe some alterations to better match the different chassis. (You'd probably also would like the Huntsman. I'd suggest you try some out when it comes out for C-bills at least. Good mech that is like a taller Nova. The same, but slightly different if that makes sense to you.)

mycroft000, on 27 January 2017 - 11:34 PM, said:

And this is where we'll have to agree to disagree, everyone in my unit who's tried my build, including our self professed LRM boat pilot, has been able to give above average performance in my build.

I don't doubt that at all. Especially if it's under guidance and in a team that communicates and works together. If you also have some skill in the game (as in, not a new player), it will also work decent for you. Sadly, we can't completely relate our performance with any mechs as a good (nor bad) indicator of how a new player will handle a mech. (As in, I could be completely surprised and find out that new players perform well in the mech. I just don't see if happening is all, but I could be surprised still too.)

Without any guidance on how to utilize the build, I suspect too many new players would fail at either the Ghost heat or getting close enough to deal damage. This will likely lead to frustration. Of course as I said before, I could be completely wrong.

AKA: I'm not against your build being a champion build, but at the same time I don't see it being well for it.

mycroft000, on 28 January 2017 - 06:05 PM, said:

I'd like to see everyone who's participating in this debate join me in private matches and let's thoroughly work both builds through testing. I feel like I've given my best effort to doing "real world" testing to these but with only a few players in the lobby with me I can't truly say I've tested it as thoroughly as I'd like.

Sorry I couldn't join at all. My Saturdays are normally blocked in. Last night I couldn't even get to my computer, as the room it was in was turned into a table top battleground for Warhammer with friends (which I was at work). I would have loved to have joined and tested it along side others. Though, we would want to have a team with a more normal (T5) configuration, with some LRM based mechs built into it. See how well they performed there.

I am still testing the build at the moment, but so far what I figured it would be seems to be holding. It's a reasonable design in it's own rights. A little hot but not unmanageable. Now... if I can just get near my allied assaults. (So far, they have spawned on the opposite side of the map for me...)

mycroft000, on 29 January 2017 - 05:47 PM, said:

I'm hoping to get more testing going if anyone is up for it. Ideally we could get a couple of teams together to do some private lobby tests.

Are you like... reading my mind? Another try at this. Okay.

[Mycroft000]

Tesunie, on 29 January 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

The average I've typically seen for "participation" has been 200-250 damage, but then again damage isn't everything. I tend to aim for 5 damage per ton invested in the battle, for efficiency sake. But even then, I do count in things that may cause no damage but is still helpful to a team. Like, if I can distract 2 or more enemies from my team for some time, even if I die after a time, that could be the moment that let my team push and kill the rest of their team. Even if I did little to no damage, that is something I consider. Not to mention damage "value", such as damage that is likely to kill or disable a target, compared to damage used to "take out a Centurion's shield arm".

You're right damage isn't everything, and I think I've mentioned before, in many cases as skill goes up damage may go down. And I use the same tactics frequently where I'll come in as a major disruption allowing the rest of my team to roll the enemy when the enemy team turns to deal with me. In those cases, I figure the average amount I put out is in the 150-250 range, enough to open up some components on one or two mechs even if I don't get a kill.

Tesunie, on 29 January 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

If I could sit with a new player, I might very well suggest your build. Honestly, if your build became the champion build, I wouldn't be too bothered by it either. I have my concerns about how new players (without guidance) would handle in it, but it's not as bad as some other Champion builds already in the game. If they can figure it out, it can be very deadly. If they can't, I'm worried about the frustration it could produce.

Truthfully I haven't really given guidance on how to pilot my build, it's been pretty self explanatory for the people I've had run it, admittedly most of them have been playing for a few months, and have seen what I do in it.

Tesunie, on 29 January 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

As for the MGs, it's about heat management there. The ERSLs deal most of the bulk of the damage, and you need to keep it on there for only a short burn time. MGs need continuous face time and accuracy, which means the extra cooling the DHS provide lets you use those more deadly ERSLs more often and for longer. Thus, it deals more damage in the end.

Truthfully I find the MGs to be wasted tonnage on the Nova, and this is coming from someone who likes machine guns enough to have bought the Ultraviolet specifically to do a DWF-W with 3ERLL and 8MG.

As much as I want to like the MGs on the Nova, the 120 meter optimal range(240 max) adds almost nothing in terms of damage to the 200m optimal(360max) for the ERSLs. And the difference of heat management is a grand total of .11, not a lot when it reduces your effective damage by 10 per cycle between arms.

Tesunie, on 29 January 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

Before the UAC nerf, I'd inform you of some good things you might be missing out on (play style dependent of course). After the nerf? It's now the only way to use an UAC. Boat them, or they jam too often to even be of any use to you anymore. And when they do jam, expect to die before they manage to unjam. (One nerf of the other would not have been too bad, but the two together? Been having to change a lot of my Clan builds...)

I have generally preferred LBx over UAC so I haven't run the UACs enough to really have much of an opinion on the nerfs.

Tesunie, on 29 January 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

My D has 4.5 tons of ammo for the two LRM15s it has equipped. It's typically more than it needs in an average game play. I also tend to use my LRMs more so for the opening moves of the game, then fall to the lasers for the mid game action, and then (probably due to damage) fall back to the LRM role if possible for the end game (because otherwise, I probably would die).

I've tried running LRMs on the Breaker, but for me the Novas have been so much more effective in other roles that I've left LRMs to the Heavy/Assault pilots in my unit.

Tesunie, on 29 January 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

I am trying the #2 build out now for the record...

Great, I definitely want to hear your results, but I also want to hear your opinion once you get into a private lobby and see how its heat management is when you have no skills unlocked.

Tesunie, on 29 January 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

As stated above, I've actually been running that build now. I've only done a single match, and quickly got up to 250+ damage before I was "put down" from rather poor positioning and a team that moved away from me (I was placed in a spawn away from the rest of the team).

I've done probably 20-30 matches in Build #2 at this point(possibly more I haven't been keeping a tally).

Tesunie, on 29 January 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

It does run a little toasty, but not so hot it isn't manageable. Of course, I state this with the realization that my Nova's are mastered out and that I have those benefits (which I can't turn off in game). AMS didn't get used at all, but it seemed solid still to me so far in my testing. (I intend to test it more still.)

This is exactly why I spent time yesterday with Larsh testing in the private lobby.

Tesunie, on 29 January 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

You see, I like the Nova from my MW2 days, as well as from the artwork. It's a cool mech (or maybe a hot mech is more appropriate? Eh eh? Get it?) design and I've always liked how it looks. Before the Huntsman came out, I was all Novas and loving them. After the Huntsman release... I LOVE them even more. The Nova is still one of my favorites... but I just love that Huntsman. Many of my Nova builds got placed right onto the Huntsmen, with maybe some alterations to better match the different chassis. (You'd probably also would like the Huntsman. I'd suggest you try some out when it comes out for C-bills at least. Good mech that is like a taller Nova. The same, but slightly different if that makes sense to you.)

I've got the Huntsman and I have been ​thoroughly unimpressed. I can do a decent 3-400 in it if I'm lucky, but for me it's far too tall, and doesn't really have the room to use it's tonnage on builds I can use most effectively.

Tesunie, on 29 January 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

I don't doubt that at all. Especially if it's under guidance and in a team that communicates and works together. If you also have some skill in the game (as in, not a new player), it will also work decent for you. Sadly, we can't completely relate our performance with any mechs as a good (nor bad) indicator of how a new player will handle a mech. (As in, I could be completely surprised and find out that new players perform well in the mech. I just don't see if happening is all, but I could be surprised still too.)

I've got one very new player who has been dropping with us who if I can get him to spend the cbills(that he doesn't really have) on the Nova then I'll be able to see how he handles it.

Tesunie, on 29 January 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

Without any guidance on how to utilize the build, I suspect too many new players would fail at either the Ghost heat or getting close enough to deal damage. This will likely lead to frustration. Of course as I said before, I could be completely wrong.

I still think Ghost Heat is more self explanatory than proper implementation of AMS. And I constantly find myself dead having done far more damage than I expected in my build, the testing drops I did with Larsh last night included one where I ended up with 648 damage in a 2v4(or 3 I can't remember) and that was with all skill trees ignored.

Tesunie, on 29 January 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

I am still testing the build at the moment, but so far what I figured it would be seems to be holding. It's a reasonable design in it's own rights. A little hot but not unmanageable. Now... if I can just get near my allied assaults. (So far, they have spawned on the opposite side of the map for me...)

In case we don't get to continue the testing we did get into tonight, how hot was it running for you with the skill trees ignored?

[Tesunie]

mycroft000, on 29 January 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

You're right damage isn't everything, and I think I've mentioned before, in many cases as skill goes up damage may go down. And I use the same tactics frequently where I'll come in as a major disruption allowing the rest of my team to roll the enemy when the enemy team turns to deal with me. In those cases, I figure the average amount I put out is in the 150-250 range, enough to open up some components on one or two mechs even if I don't get a kill.

We very well could have, in this long dialogue. Consider it just me agreeing with you then and/or making sure we are each on the same page.

mycroft000, on 29 January 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

Truthfully I haven't really given guidance on how to pilot my build, it's been pretty self explanatory for the people I've had run it, admittedly most of them have been playing for a few months, and have seen what I do in it.

If someone is aware of the Ghost Heat, than it is a really self explanatory build. I will say, I took your build onto the testing grounds and alphaed. Shut down instantly. Then, I did the "new player panic" and alphaed again upon restart. Sure, I killed the stationary Atlas from behind, but I was shut down for a good while. This is what I'm concerned new players will do.

Then, when I played it (on the testing grounds) more seriously with the ghost heat kept in mind, it just wrecked most things very quickly. Cataphract took a while and overheated (from completely cold) without ghost heat... but that wasn't unexpected. I stopped testing at that point, figuring I had seen enough results for that test (and not knowing when you'd get back on).

At some points (like for the centurion on that run), I did the new player "shoot my weapons outside their max range" (admit it, you have probably seen someone you spectate trying to snipe with SLs at some point while playing this game. I know I have), and then "realized" my range wasn't that far (but I was almost there). (This was done intentionally, for the record.)

Your build I don't worry about heat and DPS, I worry about Ghost Heat and range really. As I said, if it made it as the Champion, I'd be okay with it. I just don't believe it's as new player friendly as other choices (or... rather choice at this time).

mycroft000, on 29 January 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

Truthfully I find the MGs to be wasted tonnage on the Nova, and this is coming from someone who likes machine guns enough to have bought the Ultraviolet specifically to do a DWF-W with 3ERLL and 8MG.

As much as I want to like the MGs on the Nova, the 120 meter optimal range(240 max) adds almost nothing in terms of damage to the 200m optimal(360max) for the ERSLs. And the difference of heat management is a grand total of .11, not a lot when it reduces your effective damage by 10 per cycle between arms.

Honestly, I don't believe I have any mechs with MGs on them anymore. I pride myself in experimenting and using every weapon in the game at some point (which I have done), but MGs are just not something I use often (or very well). I've used flamers in the past as a tool to blind people, until the graphic for it got changed. Even then, it was a rare thing for me to work with.

Not all weapons are useful to everyone. I know there are some wizes out there that can kill with MGs and Flamers. I just am not one of them. Though I use them from time to time still, just to stay current on what they can do.

mycroft000, on 29 January 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

I have generally preferred LBx over UAC so I haven't run the UACs enough to really have much of an opinion on the nerfs.

Fair enough. LBx are nice, but you have to use them well and know what you are expecting to get out of them. I personally like my 2 LB5x (and 2 ERMLs) Huntsman, and I didn't think I would at first. (Was 2 UAC5, but for whatever reason the UAC5s jammed often and at the same time every time they did jam. Never one at a time. Plus, I didn't like it back then, but the LBx surprised me with how well it seems to work.)

To each their own.

mycroft000, on 29 January 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

I've tried running LRMs on the Breaker, but for me the Novas have been so much more effective in other roles that I've left LRMs to the Heavy/Assault pilots in my unit.

I have to confess that I do love my LRMs. I never boat them (as you can see from my Nova build as an example). On that weapon, it is literally all about how you use them, and what you expect to get out of them. You also have to be mindful of more than just what is right in front of you, but now need to worry about what is above you and your target... in an arc. Some people like them, others despise them. Once again, a "to each their own".

To be honest, I just placed the LRMs on the Nova because I wanted to. Had no idea if it would be effective on it, which I'm happy to have been surprised. (Jump, get lock, rain LRMs, drop behind cover. Not a bad tactic most times.)

mycroft000, on 29 January 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

Great, I definitely want to hear your results, but I also want to hear your opinion once you get into a private lobby and see how its heat management is when you have no skills unlocked.

Heat was still manageable I thought. Wasn't too much different than when I was in the live servers. I did do better though, because of the controlled environment (trying to simulate new players, which I don't think we succeeded. I probably should have alphaed more, and hid a little less, etc. Try to do new player mistakes).

mycroft000, on 29 January 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

I've done probably 20-30 matches in Build #2 at this point(possibly more I haven't been keeping a tally).

I've only done 3 matches. Each was "alright" and my team won the matches. Sometimes I did 300+ damage, sometimes I did 150ish. Each time though, I seemed to have performed reasonable. Not great, not horrible either. But a reasonable steady performance. I actually like to see a mech have a more or less steady performance, with few spikes or drops. I feel it means it's a decent build.

mycroft000, on 29 January 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

This is exactly why I spent time yesterday with Larsh testing in the private lobby.

I'm happy you did, and that you've taken this seriously. Makes me believe that, no matter what, new players are getting far better than they use to get.

mycroft000, on 29 January 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

I've got the Huntsman and I have been ​thoroughly unimpressed. I can do a decent 3-400 in it if I'm lucky, but for me it's far too tall, and doesn't really have the room to use it's tonnage on builds I can use most effectively.

Really? Might be our different weapon and combat styles here. I've just fallen in love with the thing. The trick is you do need to sink some tonnage in something big. You can't get away with spamming a lot of smaller things (which is the current meta). That is why most of my Huntsmen carry a single larger ballistic (or two).

It does suffer from "more weight than it has slots to use". It can be a problem, but it isn't much of one I find.

mycroft000, on 29 January 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

I've got one very new player who has been dropping with us who if I can get him to spend the cbills(that he doesn't really have) on the Nova then I'll be able to see how he handles it.

That might be cool. The Nova isn't a bad chassis, but it also isn't for everyone (it seems). It's small stature makes it easier to hide and poke, but to a lot of people it doesn't have the tonnage to pack much of a punch, unless it's boating small lasers... (I like to beg differently, personally. But I wont argue with the ERSL Nova either.)

mycroft000, on 29 January 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

I still think Ghost Heat is more self explanatory than proper implementation of AMS. And I constantly find myself dead having done far more damage than I expected in my build, the testing drops I did with Larsh last night included one where I ended up with 648 damage in a 2v4(or 3 I can't remember) and that was with all skill trees ignored.

AMS is good for new players, rather they try to use it to shield other teammates, or just for themselves. LRMs are far more common (and so is SSRMs I'd imagine) in the lower tiers. So, for a new player, that AMS will help protect them far more than they would have trying to fight the LRMs without AMS. It does also show how helpful AMS can be. Then, if they like it, they could always get a Nova and set it up with 3 AMS and whatever weapons they wish to place in it.

Do recall, just like when I was in the lobby, that we aren't using them in a "skill-less" fashion. I know I was jumping and using terrain for cover. I was showing a single arm to my opponents or twisting to distribute damage around. I kept my lasers on target for their beam duration (most of the time). I closed and engaged the enemy, while being mindful of my surroundings. (I also was trying to be fair, and stay outside 180m ranges while doing that.) I also alphaed when I was jump attacking, and I held back when I was too hot. I also knew when to risk an override, and when to fall back and cool off. These are things new players don't do... Which is why I do feel, as good and as fun as our testing was, it wasn't as accurate as we probably wished it was.

mycroft000, on 29 January 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

In case we don't get to continue the testing we did get into tonight, how hot was it running for you with the skill trees ignored?

Well, if you are talking between the 3 AMS builds... I will comment that I did a smidge bit more damage when we were each AMS than you did with the MPLs (that was what you had, right?). I feel if we continued playing those builds and gathering more data, we probably would continue to have relatively even performance. The ERML version has more range, something I feel will help new players more. This permitted me to deal some damage earlier on in our couple of tests than you (possibly also why my score was higher maybe?).

At one point, when you went to the other team and was in your "LRM beast", you forced my mech several times into hiding due to the number of LRMs you could spam. This did permit my ally to out damage me in those matches, but in future matches the ERSL version did continue to out damage the ERML one. But this was also just 2v2, and as we stated damage isn't always everything. The test map was small, and we only had a very small control group. (Plus, two LRM boats can definitely overpower the 3 AMS Nova... but 2 such Novas...)

I've never questioned the lethality of your build. If it can get close, it will take something out with it (most times). My issue is being able to get close (in the testing, we used the small hills to get really close to you guys, something a new player may not consider), as well as ghost heat (it is real easy for a new player to get hit with ghost heat, a single panicked alpha, or just timing the shots too close together can do it). Beyond those two issues, I have no problems with your build. But those two issues are literally what hangs me up on your build, and why I vote for the AMS version (Build #2).

Build #2 gave me regular and reasonable performance. I will agree it wasn't spectacular performance, but it was consistent for me even though I wasn't exactly familiar with the build personally. It just has more tactical viability/flexibility. It's more forgiving if you make a mistake, and just by being on the team it can be helpful even if a new player just sticks with teammates and doesn't shoot very much. (Though, my problem with this build is actually with the reward system, there is no reward "benefit" for running with AMS. You can protect your allies till your AMS bins run dry, but you'll get no credit for that work. Kinda discourages AMS usage overall, despite it being rather helpful sometimes.)

[PFC Carsten]

Stock Nova Prime is good enough. Learn to manage your heat.

[Lily from animove]

Try to tell us first what PGI Wants those Champion build to be for.

3AMS NVA is a rather noobs suited mech vs lrm's yet 6CERMEDS aren't that great. so it may work for noobs.

The 12 ERSML version is a rather cool running mech, Range isn't the best, it may force noobs to suicide rush too much (I still question the point of an active probe in that one). it is however a very good build in better skill ranges where people know how to pilot well and get in the required situations.

So the real question is still what do you want trial mechs to be?
Starter people's mechs that makes them familiar with MWO? then Build #2: Nova S with the ams will be better. But people will bring this to FW too, and there it isn't that good.
You want the mech to be rather competitive? Then Build #1: Nova Prime is the better choice
Also, both builds have rather low back armor, which is ok, for better players, but newbies? That could end up really bad, as they may need some more nack armor. (I suggets +4 on each back). But then they are probably not able to react on such a situation either and will just die anyways.

But don't forget, people may bring this to FW as well. and the 6xCEML NVA is ot very suited for it as it is a waste of many tonnage for ams. And those 6CERML will notmdo well in scouting because they have long beamdurations and heat up very quickly.

In my honest opinion, the entire way how trials works is badly done. You should implement more variants declared as -beginner, advanced, champion.

That way newbies could use the 3AMS beginners build, go to an advanced 2PPC build and end up with the CERSL build as champion build. That would give 3 solid mechs which perform all well in their role for beginners, a safer jumpsniper style and a more niche punchy build. But your current way of wanting "champion" mechs will eithe rbe noobfriendly, or unsuited for FW. and unfortuntaely noobs come to FW and then they are either uselss because they have an inferior but friendly build or a build they can't handle for ... well being new and unexperienced.

if you want a somewhat allround mech suited for newbies and punchy, then I would even suggest making a 4CERMl, 6CERSL build


my take for a beginner nova would look like this:
This build gives them 3 AMS they need vs LRM, it also grants them some punch for range with the 4 CERML, but also a good punch for close range by the 6 CERSL.
Newbies with CERML will have huge issues with light mechs, as CERML are very heatinefficent and have long beam durations.

it will help noobs to understand using the CERML on range and only the CERSL in CQC.

An alternate could probably be using an s arm and making 3 CERSL into CSPL. takes away punch for more heatefficiency.

Edited by Lily from animove, 30 January 2017 - 03:39 AM.

[Mycroft000]

Lily from animove, on 30 January 2017 - 02:37 AM, said:

(I still question the point of an active probe in that one)

There are only two points to the active probe: use up tonnage that won't get used if you're including Hand and Lower Arm actuators as intended(but not included on the Smurfy build), and it also allows them to see shutdown mechs so they can keep shooting(this is more of an afterthought to using the tonnage though).

[Lily from animove]

mycroft000, on 30 January 2017 - 07:17 AM, said:

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There are only two points to the active probe: use up tonnage that won't get used if you're including Hand and Lower Arm actuators as intended(but not included on the Smurfy build), and it also allows them to see shutdown mechs so they can keep shooting(this is more of an afterthought to using the tonnage though).

well yes I forgot about that shutdown mechs get shown thing, maybe thats something newbeis could need, i would still choose to use it for more leg HP and go with some "empty" tonnage.
But such a cool runnign variant could also utilize 3x ams to help newbies against lrm's. But for me AMS is some kind of traitor revealing my position.

[Mycroft000]

Lily from animove, on 30 January 2017 - 08:05 AM, said:

well yes I forgot about that shutdown mechs get shown thing, maybe thats something newbeis could need, i would still choose to use it for more leg HP and go with some "empty" tonnage.
But such a cool runnign variant could also utilize 3x ams to help newbies against lrm's. But for me AMS is some kind of traitor revealing my position.

If people commonly tried to shoot Novas' legs, I'd go along with that. But side torsos and arms are the true target on them.

And I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to putting AMS on my build, but I don't believe a defensive weapon is a good use of tonnage when new players don't yet understand how to use it(and usually don't even think it's a good idea regardless of experience).

I am glad someone is finally acknowledging that my build does run cool.

[Tesunie]

mycroft000, on 30 January 2017 - 07:17 AM, said:

There are only two points to the active probe: use up tonnage that won't get used if you're including Hand and Lower Arm actuators as intended(but not included on the Smurfy build), and it also allows them to see shutdown mechs so they can keep shooting(this is more of an afterthought to using the tonnage though).

I thought it was there to bring up target data faster, disrupt ECM if it gets close (so you can target them easier and know where to hit), as well as continue to maintain a lock if an opponent shuts down from overheating...

Now you are telling me it's just a weight sink? And here I thought you where being effective with your builds. (Yes, I'm joking here.)

mycroft000, on 30 January 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

I am glad someone is finally acknowledging that my build does run cool.

If you know about Ghost Heat and avoid it... Never said it doesn't run cool. It can run cool, or super "fry eggs on your dashboard" hot if you break Ghost Heat.

Remember my two concerns with your build. Ghost heat, and range. Everything else looks solid, and I know it is too.

[Tesunie]

Lily from animove, on 30 January 2017 - 02:37 AM, said:

So the real question is still what do you want trial mechs to be?

Do recall who it is that "must" use trial mechs.

I don't know about you personally, but (besides maybe to test them) I haven't used a trial mech in years. Once you start to own your own mechs, you honestly stop using the trials for the most part.

From there, you may see some people use trial mechs in FP (which is always not recommended anyway) to fill out their drop deck if they lack the correct tonnage mechs to finish it out. But, with the new skill system coming where you no longer would need 3 variants of the same mech, I suspect we may see even less of this. People then will just buy 4 mechs, probably one of each weight class, and be able to go with their own mechs.


So, for the most part, these champion mechs need to be looked at with brand new players in mind. So as new player friendly as possible, but while also trying to include enough build variety that they can check out different weapons and even play styles amongst all the champion mechs.

So, for example, if the Nova has 6 ERMLs, having an Adder champion/trial with 5 ERMLs I don't think will exactly do the trial system justice, and instead only shows off lasers, and of particular note the ERMLs. I feel this is another thing we should consider, but that's a lot harder to do, as now we have to cross different threads and look at all the Champion build suggestions. (Something I'm hoping PGI will do instead for us, as they decide the final choices I believe.)

[Mycroft000]

Tesunie, on 30 January 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

I thought it was there to bring up target data faster, disrupt ECM if it gets close (so you can target them easier and know where to hit), as well as continue to maintain a lock if an opponent shuts down from overheating...

Now you are telling me it's just a weight sink? And here I thought you where being effective with your builds. (Yes, I'm joking here.)

If I didn't despise unused tonnage, I'd have probably originally designed it without the Active Probe and either maxed out the armor, or crammed one extra heat sink in one arm and suffered with the reduced arm movement. But I didn't actually start playing with my arms unlocked until August or September, after I'd been playing for nearly a year. When I did I wanted to get the full range of motion so I dropped two heat sinks and replaced those with the TC1 and the AP.

Tesunie, on 30 January 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

If you know about Ghost Heat and avoid it... Never said it doesn't run cool. It can run cool, or super "fry eggs on your dashboard" hot if you break Ghost Heat.

I'm from Phoenix, frying eggs on the dashboard is a nice day in the summer.

But seriously, I genuinely think Ghost Heat is a very quick lesson learned. I know when I started I saw the warning symbol in the mechlab and took it at face value. And I truly don't know how many new players actively use alpha strikes, it's not mapped to the mouse buttons in the game settings, and it isn't in easy reach for punching the \ key when steering. Most mechs seem to have 3-5 weapon groups stock and unless they're remapping their weapon groups in game then they're likely not setting their weapons to alpha while at the beginning of a match.

Tesunie, on 30 January 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

Remember my two concerns with your build. Ghost heat, and range. Everything else looks solid, and I know it is too.

I understand the concern with range, but I think the burn time and heat associated with ERMLs gives the enemy too much face time with you at longer ranges, meaning too much time for their UAC shells to hit you while you hold your medium lasers on them, and medium lasers as I've said many times, run too hot.

Tesunie, on 30 January 2017 - 10:25 AM, said:

Do recall who it is that "must" use trial mechs.

I don't know about you personally, but (besides maybe to test them) I haven't used a trial mech in years. Once you start to own your own mechs, you honestly stop using the trials for the most part.

The last time I consciously used them was during private matches before the stock load out/ignore efficiencies options became available to do evenly matched skill based fights in trial mechs.

Tesunie, on 30 January 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

From there, you may see some people use trial mechs in FP (which is always not recommended anyway) to fill out their drop deck if they lack the correct tonnage mechs to finish it out. But, with the new skill system coming where you no longer would need 3 variants of the same mech, I suspect we may see even less of this. People then will just buy 4 mechs, probably one of each weight class, and be able to go with their own mechs.

I used trial mechs for FP early on and they actually performed fairly well for me at the time.

Tesunie, on 30 January 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

So, for example, if the Nova has 6 ERMLs, having an Adder champion/trial with 5 ERMLs I don't think will exactly do the trial system justice, and instead only shows off lasers, and of particular note the ERMLs. I feel this is another thing we should consider, but that's a lot harder to do, as now we have to cross different threads and look at all the Champion build suggestions. (Something I'm hoping PGI will do instead for us, as they decide the final choices I believe.)

I honestly haven't looked at any of the other Champion threads; I'm not good experienced enough with those other mechs to provide good insight into what makes the mech truly effective. And that is is a fantastic point.

But knowing the Nova as well as I do, I'm fighting hard for this because I know how much it can improve a pilot's skills without outside instruction. Until I started running this build(or at least one extremely close to it) I was still doing things like running around the outside of the map and backstabbing to get one or two kills at best before dying.

Edited by mycroft000, 30 January 2017 - 11:14 AM.

[Tesunie]

mycroft000, on 30 January 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

If I didn't despise unused tonnage, I'd have probably originally designed it without the Active Probe and either maxed out the armor, or crammed one extra heat sink in one arm and suffered with the reduced arm movement. But I didn't actually start playing with my arms unlocked until August or September, after I'd been playing for nearly a year. When I did I wanted to get the full range of motion so I dropped two heat sinks and replaced those with the TC1 and the AP.

If it's less than 0.5 tons, than it isn't much to worry about. Even then, there are some great builds I know of that are short from full tonnage by almost a full ton, but they work well. I know my Huntsmen often run less than 0.5 (more like 0.2) tons short of full, but it isn't worth stripping armor off to the nearest half ton because there often isn't anything to do with it and it's a lot of armor to take off...

In this case here, it's actually very little armor removed for a reasonable benefit. (But still, you should have let my reasons stand. It made you look better.) (Yes, I'm poking some fun again. Don't mind me.) I'm going to guess you didn't know how helpful AP actually could be, but it can be really useful. It's one of the surprises I saw with your build that I kinda liked.

mycroft000, on 30 January 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

I'm from Phoenix, frying eggs on the dashboard is a nice day in the summer.

But seriously, I genuinely think Ghost Heat is a very quick lesson learned. I know when I started I saw the warning symbol in the mechlab and took it at face value. And I truly don't know how many new players actively use alpha strikes, it's not mapped to the mouse buttons in the game settings, and it isn't in easy reach for punching the \ key when steering. Most mechs seem to have 3-5 weapon groups stock and unless they're remapping their weapon groups in game then they're likely not setting their weapons to alpha while at the beginning of a match.

Don't make me send some snow your way. It would only turn to rain anyway before it got there.

From my experience helping new players, it's a harder lesson to learn than you may thing. Despite the warnings in mech lab (which a lot of people ignore for whatever reason), they will just wonder why they "sometimes" gain a ton of extra hear for "not apparent reason". It's actually something I feel that the energy draw system (don't know if you kept track of that) did get right. Everything was far more up front and obvious, with more ways to track what was happening and why it was happening.

As for alpha striking, you can do so in other ways. In this case, if each arm is assigned to a weapon fire group (left and right mouse button), than all one would have to do to shoot all their weapons is press both mouse buttons at once. Than they get hit with ghost heat and basically take a long nap (and probably die). This can be done accidentally or in a moment of panic for a new player. (You can also sometimes be trying to type, and just before you hit the key to type, hit the wrong button and "FHOOSH", you just shot something. I have left shift being a third weapon group, and sometimes while I type, I'll shoot that group for no apparent reason...)

As I said, Ghost heat is a concern. The range is what deters me from your build. Of course, I would like to mention that if no other proposed Champion builds are a brawler like class, than it could be good to have a brawler among the selection.

mycroft000, on 30 January 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

I understand the concern with range, but I think the burn time and heat associated with ERMLs gives the enemy too much face time with you at longer ranges, meaning too much time for their UAC shells to hit you while you hold your medium lasers on them, and medium lasers as I've said many times, run too hot.

T5 players probably have more to worry about LRMs than massed UAC shots. Not to mention, they may be less likely to take cover, or use the JJs (the real strength of the Nova).

I wont disagree with the ERMLs running hot. Any laser Nova is going to be a little warm. It was why I had made a suggestion with a more ballistic Nova. (I knew my LRM Nova wouldn't go anywhere, and I wouldn't even recommend it to new players.) Was trying to mix things up a bit.

mycroft000, on 30 January 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

The last time I consciously used them was during private matches before the stock load out/ignore efficiencies options became available to do evenly matched skill based fights in trial mechs.

Which is why I was stressing (before this champion round, and right after the last round) that the Champion builds needed to be more new player friendly. From what little I've seen so far this round, I'm a bit more impressed with the concepts this time. Far more variety as well as more consideration about the builds.

Once you start buying your own mechs, you really don't use Trails for much else anymore... Which is why I would disagree with a beginner, advanced and champion classes of builds. The only one to really see practical use would be beginner, maybe champion/advanced as part of a FP drop deck lacking a specific mech weight...

mycroft000, on 30 January 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

I used trial mechs for FP early on and they actually performed fairly well for me at the time.

It is often recommended to have at least three if not four customized and at least basiced out mechs before one steps into FP. Having a trial mech or two to fill in tonnage often isn't such a bad thing when you are starting. Not to mention, most every champion build previous was based on an old meta. It may be old, but it was still once a meta, and they normally still can hold their own as an average. They may not be new meta, or perfectly optimized anymore, but they aren't trash either for the most part.

I'll divulge a secret... I have a stock mech only account. I actually do very well in stock mechs. I've even brought them into FP before, and continued to do well. Sometimes, it's not what you have, it's how you use it that makes the difference. (Of course, I would not recommend such an action for the normal player.)

mycroft000, on 30 January 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

I honestly haven't looked at any of the other Champion threads; I'm not good experienced enough with those other mechs to provide good insight into what makes the mech truly effective. And that is is a fantastic point.

But knowing the Nova as well as I do, I'm fighting hard for this because I know how much it can improve a pilot's skills without outside instruction. Until I started running this build(or at least one extremely close to it) I was still doing things like running around the outside of the map and backstabbing to get one or two kills at best before dying.

Same. I've got interest here and in the Adder thread. I voted but am not committed to the Wolfhound thread, the only other mech being on the list that I have even a little experience with. I can say, ERMLs and MLs (Clan and IS respectively) boated builds are in each of those lists... I'm starting to be worried that we are going to be ML spammed this round, which is fine for some chassis, but if all the champion mechs become that... it's going to be a boring and hard champion rotation coming...

I will not counter your experience. I have concerns about your build, which I've made clear. But I feel, no matter which Nova makes it, they each will be very good and strong Champion mechs. Yes, I will "fight" for the one I believe would be better in that role, but overall I think the Nova will be well off either way in the end.

Both builds have their strengths and weaknesses. Each has merit for being a Champion mech. One considers more defensive actions and addresses to the typical stronger mid range combat style. The other is more offensive, in your face death with cooler running and harder hits if used correctly and able to get into range.

Basically, it's flexibility and versatility vs specialized close combat effectiveness and damage potential. This has been a large debate on the forums as a whole for as long as I've been here. Boated "specialized" builds vs mixed builds with more flexibility. There are good arguments for each, and each has their strengths and weaknesses.