155 replies to this topic

[RestosIII]

Riitters, on 08 February 2017 - 09:40 PM, said:

Considering that the time you'd spend to earn enough XP to Basic 3 + Master 1 previously will net you OVER TEN MILLION-CBILLS @ 2.5k XP / 250,000cb per game, you're coming out ahead. Stop crying about something you haven't given critical thought to.

You want to grind 9.1M C-Bills and around 130k XP to get fully outfitted with a new mech, assuming you make 0 changes to the build in the process, all while playing against other people's fully kitted setups? I bloody well don't. And with the module refund, I'm going to have MAYBE 16M C-Bills I can spend. Total. So I can't even fully level 2 mechs with this price cost, let alone my 50.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Riitters, on 08 February 2017 - 09:40 PM, said:

Considering that the time you'd spend to earn enough XP to Basic 3 + Master 1 previously will net you OVER TEN MILLION-CBILLS @ 2.5k XP / 250,000cb per game, you're coming out ahead. Stop crying about something you haven't given critical thought to.

What about people who have already done that grind? I've been playing this game for over 4 years. I have 323 mechs, most of which are already mastered. This new system completely ***** me over. I have to grind out millions of XP to bring those mechs back to the same level as before, as the new XP requirements are higher. I have to spend billions of C-Bills to afford all of those skill points.

All of that progress, effectively erased.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

^ Exactly...the system may not be too bad going forward when you buy a new mech, but to get our previously owned mechs back to a similar level of competitiveness will cost more than most of us have, especially those of us that invested C-bills into mechs instead of modules where we are only getting a fraction of our C-bills by selling back mechs, but those that invested in modules are getting 100% of their C-bill costs back.

[Eidelon]

This is fuuking bullshite

Edited by Eidelon, 08 February 2017 - 10:04 PM.

[Deathlike]

Best use of PGI's time by our balance lord... AMIRITE??!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Riitters, on 08 February 2017 - 09:40 PM, said:

Considering that the time you'd spend to earn enough XP to Basic 3 + Master 1 previously will net you OVER TEN MILLION-CBILLS @ 2.5k XP / 250,000cb per game, you're coming out ahead. Stop crying about something you haven't given critical thought to.

Oh, but let's say you want a particular mech spec'd 2 different ways. Before, you could swap out weapon modules, which was free once you bought the module and could move it around to other mechs, but now it will cost you each time you change your mind. You want ERLLs for one map, then another brawling map needs LPLs...two different skill trees involved so a weapon respec is needed. Or it might be better to buy two of the same mech, but then you have to skill up each individually just to run different weapon loadouts to avoid having to keep paying to swap skills. No...this could get rather expensive in the long run, or it could get really stale if we decide we'll just leave that Arrow with 3 LPLs and never change it.

Edited by Sarsaparilla Kid, 08 February 2017 - 11:05 PM.

[KafkaSyrup]

My 2c....

* Not sure why we can't have a shared "all-chassis" tree for mech agility skills... make it double the XP, but only 5k to train per node, per level. More newbie friendly, for sure.

* Speaking of new players, it'd help to weight bonuses toward the early tiers, and taper bonuses for later tiers... have it be... slightly... less punishing?

* 91 skill nodes is a bit much... this complexity is probably begging more odd bugs and overhead. Maybe some skills should just got 3 or 4 deep, especially for particular weight classes?

* It'd be great to have some expert flavor skills... like the first-generation modules offered interesting trade-offs, and the bonuses being so minimal that balance is very threatened. Stuff like:
+120 sensor range, -2% speed
+2.5% Pulse Laser RoF, +5% Pulse Heat Penalty
+2% reverse acceleration, +5% heat from movement

[KafkaSyrup]

Kaeb Odellas, on 08 February 2017 - 09:53 PM, said:

What about people who have already done that grind? I've been playing this game for over 4 years. I have 323 mechs, most of which are already mastered. This new system completely ***** me over. I have to grind out millions of XP to bring those mechs back to the same level as before, as the new XP requirements are higher. I have to spend billions of C-Bills to afford all of those skill points. All of that progress, effectively erased.

Yeah... seems like this is all begging a default skill remapping depending on how far you made it through the skill tree where you are least 75-80% at an equivalent point of "mastery" in the new tree. If people wanted to opt-out of the default, give a one-time free-respec flag that would grant nodes closer to 50-60% of their progress. I'm at just over 100 mechs, and the thought of having to spend a few minutes touching each one seems depressing AF.

Really, I'd be okay if the cut the module refunds in half if they allowed free/highly discounted respecs for a few weeks. (This is, taking a page from a certain Naval Warfare MMO somewhere out there )

[Sorbic]

I agree with the OP. The cbill price is ridiculous. I have a 174 mechs and most are completely unlocked. It would cost me 1,583,400,000 cbills to unlock all of them at your current rates. Nearly 1.6 billion cbills?

lol Nope.

But this is just a test phase so I trust that you will knock the price down to something more reasonable like 20k for initial purchase and maybe 8k for respecs. Even at 20k I'm looking at 317 million cbills. So ON TOP of the general price reduction (a requirement unless you want to chase away all new players) PGI you need to make the initial purchase price for already owned/mastered mechs something lower still.

I spend most of my real money on mechbays and boosters. Make the grind stupid hard and (pretending I continued playing as much) I would end up buying less mechbays/or even hero's because my money had to go to unlocking what I already had.

[Galenit]

Sorbic, on 08 February 2017 - 11:53 PM, said:

I agree with the OP. The cbill price is ridiculous. I have a 174 mechs and most are completely unlocked. It would cost me 1,583,400,000 cbills to unlock all of them at your current rates. Nearly 1.6 billion cbills?

lol Nope.

But this is just a test phase so I trust that you will knock the price down to something more reasonable like 20k for initial purchase and maybe 8k for respecs. Even at 20k I'm looking at 317 million cbills. So ON TOP of the general price reduction (a requirement unless you want to chase away all new players) PGI you need to make the initial purchase price for already owned/mastered mechs something lower still.

I spend most of my real money on mechbays and boosters. Make the grind stupid hard and (pretending I continued playing as much) I would end up buying less mechbays/or even hero's because my money had to go to unlocking what I already had.

All of my mechs have at least 2 modules,
alone the refund will give me 9 millions or more for each mech.

If you dont have modules worth the 9 millions you will not lose anything,
you will just need to find some money, the same money you would have needed to find to buy modules worth 9 millions in the old system.

You swaped modules? Just bough one of the expencive ones to spare spacebucks?
Bad luck, exploiting has its price ...

Ok you need more xp, but you dont need the rule of 3 anymore,
only if you used 3 variants you will need to find some more xp, if not, the old rule of 3 should have given you enough xp to master one of the three.

Edited by Galenit, 09 February 2017 - 12:09 AM.

[RestosIII]

Galenit, on 09 February 2017 - 12:05 AM, said:

All of my mechs have at least 2 modules,
alone the refund will give me 9 millions or more for each mech.

If you dont have modules worth the 9 millions you will not lose anything,
you will just need to find some money, the same money you would have needed to find to buy modules worth 9 millions in the old system.

Ok you need more xp, but you dont need the rule of 3 anymore,
only if you used 3 variants you will need to find some more xp, if not, the old rule of 3 should have given you enough xp to master one of the three.

Incorrect. We still need to spend C-Bills to get back Cool Run, Speed Tweak, Kinetic Burst/Hard Brake, etc. That's going to add up to a stupid amount alone.

[Galenit]

RestosIII, on 09 February 2017 - 12:09 AM, said:

Incorrect. We still need to spend C-Bills to get back Cool Run, Speed Tweak, Kinetic Burst/Hard Brake, etc. That's going to add up to a stupid amount alone.

Still need to buy modules and unlock the tree for money?
How much would cost it to unlock 91 nodes and buy lets`say seismic and second module of your choice?

Sorry i dont download gigs to testplay, other companies can do this without any big downloads.

[process]

I can kind of see myself on board with a mech progression that's significantly longer than what we have currently, and provides you with the option to really tailor your mech to your liking. As is, full sensor, mech ops, and lower chassis trees? Wow!

That said, it sucks that you're more or less heavily discouraged from running more than one variant per chassis, just due to time and resource constraints. If we're supposed to be shoehorned into a single variant per chassis, I'd ask PGI to combine all variant HXP into a single pool, so I can sell the ones I don't plan on using.

It super sucks that you have to pay for each re-spec. I'd rather pay a higher cost, in cbills or MC, to permanently unlock nodes and re-spec at will, than be charged a tax every time I want to try something different. And good luck when the wind changes and PGI decides to re-balance everything. It's crappy and not consumer friendly.

Edited by process, 09 February 2017 - 12:19 AM.

[Arianrhod]

I like the principle of having these trees, but the cost is kinda out there.

I think one of two things is happening at PGI:
1. They assume that everyone has modules for every mech. If that were the case, you'd be getting back like 12 million c-bills per mech if you had one radar deprivation and two weapon modules. This would cover the cost for existing players. Of course, it doesn't work that way because none of us have three f*****g modules for every mech. In fact, I only have four modules for my entire inventory of mechs, so despite having an inventory of 52 mechs my payout is only going to be about 14 million, or enough to master one and a half mechs—just to get them to the point where they were before skill trees, because I rely on my skills way more than my modules. Yeah, not cool.
2. They know we don't have the fake money to pay for that, and they think that's fine because they're trying to level the playing field between a competitive player base taking advantage of powerful modules and less experienced players getting by with whatever they have on hand. This is just going to increase that disparity because players with more modules will be able to master a much larger percentage of their mechs, whereas casual players like me have to pick like two mechs that we really like and not play anything else until we've grinded, well, in my case, 454 million more c-bills (if you assume I never want any more mechs ever again.) Notably, 454 million c-bills is somewhere between 50 and 100 percent of all the fake money I've made in my entire time playing MechWarrior Online (about a year and a half?), which means I'd have to play religiously to be on the same level of competitiveness I am now—which is not very, because I don't always use my modules and haven't bothered to master mechs since I heard the new skill tree was coming out.

When I first read the forum posts I thought it was just bitterness, but having played for a while in the public test server I can now see that this economy is simply not sustainable. If you think about it in terms of matches, each skill point requiring 100,000 c-bills means that that the average player (not the average tier 1 player, but the all around average player) needs to play around 91 matches to get one mech mastered. For me that's 4,732 matches. I've played around 4,850 matches in the past Ever. So I'd have to redo my ENTIRE current game progress to get BACK to where I am today.

Please fix this.

[RestosIII]

Galenit, on 09 February 2017 - 12:13 AM, said:

Still need to buy modules and unlock the tree for money?
How much would cost it to unlock 91 nodes and buy lets`say seismic and second module of your choice?

Sorry i dont download gigs to testplay, other companies can do this without any big downloads.

Each skill tree node costs 100,000 C-Bills. To get back to having the mobility and heat skills from the live server's system, that's at least fleshing out 2 branches (lower chassis and mech operations), assuming you don't even care about torso twist speed/yaw, that's going to add up to at least... 3M C-Bills per mech? Can't get specific numbers since I'm on my phone. It's going to add up, and it won't be pretty.

[WolvesX]

Its way cheaper than before...

I have modules for my mechs, because I hate switching, now I will have much more money than before.

[RestosIII]

WolvesX, on 09 February 2017 - 12:46 AM, said:

Its way cheaper than before...

I have modules for my mechs, because I hate switching, now I will have much more money than before.

If you had modules for all your mechs, congrats! You don't have to worry. If you didn't because you didn't care about the modules, and just wanted more mechs to master? Well tough luck, have fun grinding for months on end to get back to what you had before.

[Nightshade24]

RestosIII, on 08 February 2017 - 04:03 PM, said:

I never use modules on my mechs. But **** me, am I right?

Don't like using modules and never used them?

Great! Don't use the new skill tree... or if you feel disadvantaged for not using the Skill Tree- why didn't you feel disadvantaged for not using Modules?...

Trust me, I am one of those people who didn't use modules often either, but I personally feel happy for this upcoming change. My only problem is that apparently the core 'root' of the Electronic warfare branch is UAV's... why do I need UAV range and cooldowns to get my NARC to perform better and why is there only 1 'skill' here that works for NARC?...

FupDup, on 08 February 2017 - 04:03 PM, said:

Are you aware that modules can be swapped between mechs for free?

After the initial purchase, modules can be used on hundreds of different mechs for no additional cost.

The new system has a slightly lower upfront cost, but the cost over time is massively higher because you can't swap skills between mechs.

Which...

A: only effects people who have so many mechs that sharing that 1 particular module (say radar dep since it's a popular one) across all mechs is beneficial or even worth trying. (your Clan LRM 15 weapon module will be so worth while in your Locust. For most people it's a new module per mech.)

B: I didn't think the idea of using only 1 module between 200 or 300 mechs was the intention of the module system, if it was then they would've just had a tick box for it instead of physically pull it off 1 mech and onto the other... Considering people on the forum suggested a fee for each time you modify something in your mechlab rather it be engine or module?... this is a far cheaper alternative relative to the other options... excluding the option for 'you can put it on anything for free after getting me'.

We can assume that there is potentially some economy changes coming up for this as most people as you probably have done bypassed the expensive module price by simply sharing them between mechs rather then put them on each individual mech. It is most likely that they may give us a few ways to make more C-bills to compensate... or maybe they prefer the idea of investing in a single mech rather then trying to min max every mech? Who knows. But what ever it is we have to be clear and concise when it comes to the PTS and response as going up in flames over it won't help to or against it.





----------------


TBH, I think the Skill Tree change was needed. The old tree was useless and clunky... For those forced to spend XP on arm actuators on mecsh that do not even have arm mounted weapons you might know... for those who looked at the convergence skill?... a relic.... 3 mechs to skill? was a fun idea but apparently many didn't like it. Sucked for new players.

Quirks were fun but so many people wanted to pull quirks different ways...
"make quirks for this mech and weapon!"
"Who the **** would even use an AC 2 on a locust?! give it some other quirk!"
"Why not make the stock weapons the ones that are quirked?"
"Why does this mech get ER PPC quirks and not normal PPC quirks?..."
"Why does the locust get such strong weapon quirks? give us info war quirks!"
Just examples of pulling quirks in different directions...
And some quirks for the mech kills off any build that used anything else. Such as these weapons being so 'op' on this mech that using anything else looks like a joke. (for eg every 50% quirk out there)

This merge of skill and quirks helps people pick their options and as many people who hated quirks may enjoy, it no longer limits builds to the quirks but allows the quirks help the build.

I think the current economics go in line with those who use modules and doesn't switch them around different mechs if not better... however since many didn't do that I can imagine some economy change is needed to compensate...


Another thing I should say is that I wish there was a thick part of the skill branch should have generic quirks (ie: Ballistic rate of fire) and then branch of into the others...

Another problem I have is I actually bought doubles of several mechs... I own 3 Mad Dog Primes... a pair of Shadowcats... 3 Raven 3L's (one of which is a 3M in disguise) etc... and was planning to buy a second Raven 4X as a light gauss sniper in the upcoming updates... but this skill tree system doesn't look too friendly upon by doubles....

[RestosIII]

Nightshade24, on 09 February 2017 - 12:52 AM, said:

Don't like using modules and never used them?

Great! Don't use the new skill tree... or if you feel disadvantaged for not using the Skill Tree- why didn't you feel disadvantaged for not using Modules?...

Trust me, I am one of those people who didn't use modules often either, but I personally feel happy for this upcoming change. My only problem is that apparently the core 'root' of the Electronic warfare branch is UAV's... why do I need UAV range and cooldowns to get my NARC to perform better and why is there only 1 'skill' here that works for NARC?...

Speed Tweak, heat skills, torso twist, etc. weren't locked behind C-Bill walls. They now are. How is that so ******* hard for- Okay, I'm getting really salty here, and I need to stop before I go on a rant. I'll just say this: It's going to cost me a ton of C-Bills to get back to what I have now. I don't have those C-Bills. I can't grind those C-Bills quickly, or even within a month. I don't want to get kicked to the ground like this. That's it.

[mad kat]

I have 67 mechs all but three (nearly two) are either mastered or elite. I only have a few million cbills balance and I've boycotted MC purchases for a while now because of PGI's repeated stupid decisions. Guess this wont help me as i have no choice with this system but to only master maybe 20% at most of my inventory.

This isn't a change or an overhaul this is a contract of sale breaking game changer removing what i have already paid for and i feel i am well within my rights to demand a refund and uninstall.

Edited by mad kat, 09 February 2017 - 01:08 AM.