368 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

MovinTarget, on 21 February 2017 - 05:49 AM, said:

again, I agree its a lot of moving parts, I'm just not sure how they could test a smaller section without opening themselves up to possibly missing things by omission.

I don't know...maybe run multiple PTS or even testing things in game, but sequentially. Figure out skills tree first...THEN mess with engine decoupling?

I just know that from the point of view of any scientific testing protocol you care to name, testing multiple variables simultansuously makes it difficult if not impossible to get useful data or understanding of those variables and the manner in which they impact the system in which they exist. Meh. PGI is gonna PGI, but if they want the PTS to be useful they need to slow down and be systematic.

[Dee Eight]

AngrySpartan, on 21 February 2017 - 01:20 AM, said:

Definetely pleasant news! Most of the players feedback taken into consideration, that's nice!

Placeholder skills (like arm movement) are still there I guess, but we shall see. Going down from 9.1 to 5.4mil and 72k XP to fully upgrade your mech is much better than before, yet still feels excessive. It will still require billions of C-Bills for many people to remaster their mechs. Half XP price for reaquiring dropped nodes is nice though.

Who are these players with 370+ mechs ? I doubt there are actually that many of them playing the game. I have 209 mechs. It will cost me 1.08 billion to master them all.

[J O B]

this may have been covered, but i didnt see it. For newer pilots, what happens to the xps in trial mechs in the new system?

[Dee Eight]

V I N CENT, on 21 February 2017 - 06:24 AM, said:

this may have been covered, but i didnt see it. For newer pilots, what happens to the xps in trial mechs in the new system?

Same as before... if you eventually own a copy of the variant used for that trial mech for yourself, you can still spend the XP you've accumulated on it to unlock nodes.

[WolvesX]

SWEET!

[TooDumbToQuit]

OK, after a night of sleep here are further thoughts.

A few guys I know with 100's of Mech thought they would only be able to outfit 4-10 or so. So lowering the amount needed is good.

My big question is what kind of XP is needed. And what kind of XP will we get back from Modules? I understand we are getting the C-Bills back, but I'm not sure what sort of XP will be used.

I also do not see well so it is hard to figure out your small symbols for types of XP.

The big thing for me about a spider web or whatever system is that you should not have to get one that you do not want, to get the one you want.

As far as the PTS, it is hard without other players to test builds. So how about running some SHORT (4 hours?) events on the weekends only on the PTS?

I'm 100% as far as taking as many versions of the PTS as needed to get this right. It is better to work it out slowly if needed then to rush it in any way.

I can't wait till the new one is up.

[1453 R]

Wintersdark, on 20 February 2017 - 07:35 PM, said:

Sweet merciful carp! At last!

And nobody ever saw engines larger than 250 or speeds over 70kph ever again.

God f***ing damnit.

[AngrySpartan]

Dee Eight, on 21 February 2017 - 06:21 AM, said:

Who are these players with 370+ mechs ? I doubt there are actually that many of them playing the game. I have 209 mechs. It will cost me 1.08 billion to master them all.

Never said a word about 370+ mechs, yet I have no doubt there are some players like that. I currently own 86 mechs, about 50 of those are mastered, so about 250mln C-bills to unlock all their nodes. I never liked module swaps, so I've collected lots of them, I will get around 200mln with the refund.
And yet i'll have to grind another 50+ million C-bills to get my mechs back to their top performance level. Definetely not a thing I would enjoy. Many players who joined MWO later would not receive a lot of C-bills from module refund either. Perhaps you are ok at spending a billion on skill trees exclusively but not everyone have piles of cash to do that.

That's why I am saying it still feels excessive, further (15-20%) C-bill cost reduction or even better 15-20 C-bill free nodes would solve that issue entirely.

1453 R, on 21 February 2017 - 06:53 AM, said:

And nobody ever saw engines larger than 250 or speeds over 70kph ever again.
God f***ing damnit.

Agreed, that's a buff to slow mechs and a huge nerf to fast ones (bye-bye Linebackers). Yet it's worth testing at least. Hell' it's worth it's own separate PTS.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 21 February 2017 - 07:02 AM.

[Zergling]

Losing XP on a respec will sting, but with the reduced cost of skill nodes and consolidated weapon trees that are likely to make respeccing less common, hopefully it won't be too bad.

Overall, these changes sound pretty good, but it will take seeing them on the next PTS to say for sure.

[Tordin]

These are fantastic news. I've seen suggestions from players around these forums with what PGI want to include into the next change. An all encompassing "Firepower" skill tree is a good example. Gives generalist/ multiple weapon types a much bigger chance, even em out with those specialist/ few weapons boaters.
Especially since I want to be more of an generalist and try to do the best with multi-weapon setups, but its not as easy to just either have all weapons energy and/ or one kind of weapon out from the different types of energy weapons. For example.
Good work and absorbation of feedback. Keep it up!

Edited by Tordin, 21 February 2017 - 07:47 AM.

[Hastur Azargo]

[Dire Whale awareness and appreciation post]



Good changes, huh? Whale, isn't this a good news to hear?

Now the system looks a whole lot more embraceable. Will wait until it's on PTS to start embracing it.

[Blockpirat]

Dee Eight, on 21 February 2017 - 06:21 AM, said:

Who are these players with 370+ mechs ? I doubt there are actually that many of them playing the game. I have 209 mechs. It will cost me 1.08 billion to master them all.

I own 358. Close enough?

I'm a Pokemech collector. Just 29 more and I'll own every variant (some of them multiple times). My goal is to also master every single one. It might take a few more years, but I'll eventually get there.

I have invested thousands of € and thousands of hours into this game. Literally.

Though I've unlocked every single module and - because I bought quite a lot of them - will be getting a refund of roughly three hundred million C-Bills, it still won't be enough to reach the status quo of Mech mastery prior to the Skill Tree changes. Not by a long shot.

Sure, PGI has listened to us and lowered the costs. I appreciate that.

Nevertheless: Post-change I suddenly have to invest millions of C-Bills into previously mastered Mechs to remaster them. And I need more XP than before to do so. This feels like a slap in my face.

What made the previous Skill Tree feel good was the feeling of accomplishment. You earned XP until every skill was unlocked and the Mech was mastered. Done. Finished. You could still tinker with the build, but the leveling itself was done.

With the new system, you are never really done. Whenever you want to experiment with your build you have to respec. You have to pay XP. In essence it feels like losing progress when you have to invest even more XP into a Mech you had already mastered.

I could live with not being able to unlock everything, with having to make meaningful choices. But as long as the new Skill Tree effectively sets back my mastery progress in this game and as long as I incur XP losses through every respec, I do not get the impression that PGI values Pokemech whales like me who have spent a fortune on this game and just want to own and master all Mechs.

From what I've read here and on Reddit I can't be the only one feeling this way.



Oh, another, unrelated thought about the Skill Tree:
Previously, some Mechs (e.g. Timber Wolf) only had two non-consumable module slots, while others (e.g. Locust) had four. With the bonuses previously given by modules now shifting to the new Skill Tree system and with every Mech now getting the same amount of Skill Points, this basically leads to a stealth buff to the Timby/stealth nerf to the Locust.

Edited by Blockpirat, 21 February 2017 - 07:54 AM.

[Dee Eight]

AngrySpartan, on 21 February 2017 - 06:58 AM, said:

Never said a word about 370+ mechs, yet I have no doubt there are some players like that. I currently own 86 mechs, about 50 of those are mastered, so about 250mln C-bills to unlock all their nodes. I never liked module swaps, so I've collected lots of them, I will get around 200mln with the refund.

You referred to players needing billions... Thus 2 or more billion... which is 370 mechs worth. 1 Billion pays for 185 mechs.

Quote

And yet i'll have to grind another 50+ million C-bills to get my mechs back to their top performance level. Definetely not a thing I would enjoy. Many players who joined MWO later would not receive a lot of C-bills from module refund either. Perhaps you are ok at spending a billion on skill trees exclusively but not everyone have piles of cash to do that.

I don't think you've understood how the skill nodes work. To just equal the current tree bonuses does not require all 91 nodes be unlocked.

[PFC Carsten]

The proposed changes sound good IMO. Also like that the whales (assaults/heavies) are getting the mobility nerf bat.

[SuperFunkTron]

MrKvola, on 21 February 2017 - 03:51 AM, said:

Liking most of the changes, especially the SP cost reduction. Athough I still believe that 40% of the originally suggested costs would be fair, not the suggested 60% as that would bring the grind back to what it is now. And the statement that the grind does not change would be actually true.

Not liking that the SPs are not an unlock. Again, you are punished for whatever experimentation and re-spec you'd like to do with your 'mech.

Why PGI? WHY? Why do you need to make the people grind if they want to rebuild or change anything? Tricking out 'mechs to your liking, tweaking performance and all that other good stuff is one of the selling points of this game.

To answer, "WHY?", think of it as something that is a physical upgrade to your mech. In reality, that takes time/resources.
If you want to look at it in terms of fairness and game play, then the simple fact that you will be likely using a mech that you are tinkering with means that you will be gaining XP constantly. If you are using a mech a lot, you will quickly end up with stacks of points you won't end up touching or will touch only every once in a while.

Your point makes sense in a "budget warrior" context, but removing the c-bill cost while using XP as a trade off is more than fair as new players will have those c-bills available for weapons testing and buying their next mech. The whole point of F2P is to pay when you don't want to deal with the grind. Everyone has the same reality. I'm happy that PGI has kept as little behind a paywall as possible while remaining viable.

[Blockpirat]

Dee Eight, on 21 February 2017 - 08:02 AM, said:

I don't think you've understood how the skill nodes work. To just equal the current tree bonuses does not require all 91 nodes be unlocked.

But our completionist mindsets require every Mech to be fully mastered again, just like before the change.

[Zergling]

Dee Eight, on 21 February 2017 - 08:02 AM, said:

I don't think you've understood how the skill nodes work. To just equal the current tree bonuses does not require all 91 nodes be unlocked.

Actually, in the previous PTS, it did.

The bonuses weren't exactly the same; some were weaker, some were stronger, but to achieve a comparable set of bonuses to the old skill system, it required all or almost all of the 91 points.


Eg, here's all the bonuses a mastered mech with one weapon cooldown module, one weapon range module, radar deprivation and seismic sensor get in the current system:

Heat Dissipation = 15%
Max Heat = 20%
Startup Speed = 33%
Acceleration = 15%
Deceleration = 15%
Turn Rate = 5%
Top Speed = 7.5%
Torso Yaw = 5%
Torso Twist Speed = 5%
Arm Speed = 5%
All Weapons Cooldown = 5%
One Weapon Cooldown = 12%
One Weapon Range = 10%
Radar Deprivation
Seismic Sensor


Versus a comparable build on the first skill revamp PTS:

Heat Dissipation = 10%
Max Heat = 15%
Startup Speed = 35%
Acceleration = 50%
Deceleration = 50%
Turn Rate = 30%
Top Speed = 7.5%
Torso Yaw = 8%
Torso Twist Speed = 4%
Arm Speed = 40%
One Weapon Type Cooldown = 5%
One Weapon Type Range = 10%
Radar Deprivation
Seismic

Cost: 89 to 90 points

Edited by Zergling, 21 February 2017 - 08:37 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Sky Hawk, on 21 February 2017 - 04:18 AM, said:

I'm still don't like the "You losing Mech-XP EVERY TIME, when you change Nodes"-part... Losing CB is one thing, but losing XP... sounds, like losing brain cells...

But.. the one Firepower Tree and the new Engine/Mobility stuff sounds interesting...

Losing XP is pretty much irrelevant, though, just means you can't respec EVERY battle. Keep in mind, every time you drop in that mech, you're gaining XP. This just gives that XP a use, as opposed to piling up indefinitely (or paying to convert to GXP).

So long as the XP cost is reasonable enough that you can respec now and then without issue, it's all good.

[AnTi90d]

Odanan, on 21 February 2017 - 03:42 AM, said:

And I remember it was you the guy who first suggested the Firepower changes.
Thank you so much! (and PGI for listening)

All praise the prophet!!

There was one guy that had the idea before me. (I just woke up 3 minutes ago and I can't think of the name.)

I was just the guy that picked up the torch and tried to spread the message here and on reddit.


-----edit-----

Thank the coffee, I found him. This man deserves the credit for the idea:

https://mwomercs.com...4-kaeb-odellas/

Proof:

https://mwomercs.com...r-weapon-types/

Edited by AnTi90d, 21 February 2017 - 08:48 AM.

[Wintersdark]

1453 R, on 21 February 2017 - 06:53 AM, said:

And nobody ever saw engines larger than 250 or speeds over 70kph ever again.

God f***ing damnit.

Because mobility is the only reason people take larger engines, right?

Lights are going to sacrifice speed for firepower? You think?

Assaults pulling 70KPH are doing it with MUCH larger engines than 250.

Mid range(mediums, heavies), this is a great buff for the Inner Sphere. They'll be able to mount smaller engines and conserve more tonnage for weapons, without sacrificing so much vs. their clan counterparts - also making Standard engines a more viable choice. Clan side, it's often not an option. The Timberwolf is still going to be mounting it's 375XL. Sure, an Orion IIC can mount a smaller engine, but it's still an Orion.


Explain how this is a bad thing.