167 replies to this topic

[justcallme A S H]

Mischief - I tip my hat to that post.

I just spat my beer out. LOL.

[Carl Vickers]

I second Ash's lol, my work mates looked at me funny when I laughed for no apparent reason in a quiet room.

[MischiefSC]

justcallme A S H, on 01 March 2017 - 10:48 PM, said:

Mischief - I tip my hat to that post.

I just spat my beer out. LOL.

It's true!

I'm sure the person I quoted is a great guy, I'm sure he's fun to play with and I'm sure I'd like him if we bumped into each other on TS.

However at this point even the most 'hardcore' FW units are really casual about FW. In KCom we've got a guy who takes an LRM King Crab when we're IS on maps like Alpine and he does great in it. Pat is often running a Gargoyle and 3 Novas. Probably 80% of the 48 mechs we take into a 12man are *not* the 'top pick' for Clans on Metamechs.

We work with the pugs on our team when we drop in less than 12, are friendly to new players and welcome anyone who isn't a total a$$hat into our TS to play with.

Yet to a ton of pugs we're the boogeyman. Evil premade who just wants to stomp pugs and the bane of FW. They have the same view of pretty much every team who drops in 6+ and isn't absolutely terrible.

Because at this point everyone who is even passingly competent has recognized that FW favors teamwork and has joined a team to some degree. The people left pugging are literally people who view using teamwork in a game that is literally built around playing in teams as the next worst thing to cheating and just listening on TS to calls to be exactly like joining the military IRL and going through boot camp.

With people like that you don't even have a basis for communicating. It's impossible to play FW without dropping in a team of 4 or 12 against a team of 4 or 12 and yet they view teamwork and any attempt at it to be trying to ruin the game for them. Not sure how to even begin to fix that.

Edited by MischiefSC, 01 March 2017 - 11:09 PM.

[Liveish]

justcallme A S H, on 01 March 2017 - 03:12 PM, said:

Do you know why? Well, I can tell you don't. But here is a quick histroy lesson:

Most of the teams stopped playing at FP3, that is when the mass exodus of big teams ended. FP2/FP3 actually allowed teams to seek out teams by looking at the queue etc. We did it often, good times were had.

After FP luanches though units fell apart because FP3 was as much of a joke as FP4.1
eg:
- MS would have would have 4-6 12mans running all the time. Now they are lucky if there is 1 in US phase
- NS barely play anymore, they would usually have 1-2 teams rolling all the time
- HHoD would have a TS overflowing with teams all the time
- Lots of loyalists gave up (part cause of no extra loyalist tree).

None of that is anecdotal, it's a fact - The population was killed with FP3. FP4.1 fixes none of the core failures of FP3, it just brought in QP modes.

CW has to be alive to be dead

[KingCobra]

MischiefSC said (Yet to a ton of pugs we're the boogeyman. Evil premade who just wants to stomp pugs and the bane of FW. They have the same view of pretty much every team who drops in 6+ and isn't absolutely terrible.)

Played Kcom last night in FP was a great game thanks again to the players on the FRR TS3 for letting me join them.

The thing is groups are groups they play organized in matches and they win some times there good games some times there slaughters depending on how skilled or unskilled there opponents are or how badly organized they are as well.

Our group won a few FP matches PUG Vs PUG our group has some very good players in it but to be honest I still believe the only way FP will be fixed is a split of groups from the FP mode and they have a FP that is group Vs Group only that way FP and MWO can rebuild.

PGI just did not how important player interaction and communication was to this IP without the huge Social chat room and groups being able to recruit new players to there team and players being able to communicate to each other to get information on this game it is in decline.

Many PC games are still going after 5- 20 years just because of the Social environment they have which bonds the community together MWO has very little of this and the older founders and players are tired of waiting for the things they deem important to keep paying into MWO.

Edited by KingCobra, 02 March 2017 - 09:11 AM.

[TWIAFU]

MischiefSC, on 01 March 2017 - 11:08 PM, said:

The people left pugging are literally people who view using teamwork in a game that is literally built around playing in teams as the next worst thing to cheating and just listening on TS to calls to be exactly like joining the military IRL and going through boot camp.

With people like that you don't even have a basis for communicating. It's impossible to play FW without dropping in a team of 4 or 12 against a team of 4 or 12 and yet they view teamwork and any attempt at it to be trying to ruin the game for them. Not sure how to even begin to fix that.

Oh man, so very spot on MSC.

You cannot fix it. What happens when you put socially inept with those that are not? The inept stand off in a corner, alone or with one other commenting on horrible the social are while the social are having fun.

We have all seen them at social events, they are standing off alone in a corner of the room.

Not much you can do. Inviting them to join is replied with how hard it is or to much work involved or to busy.

Best just to not invite them again.

[KingCobra]

MischiefSC said (The people left pugging are literally people who view using teamwork in a game that is literally built around playing in teams as the next worst thing to cheating and just listening on TS to calls to be exactly like joining the military IRL and going through boot camp.

With people like that you don't even have a basis for communicating. It's impossible to play FW without dropping in a team of 4 or 12 against a team of 4 or 12 and yet they view teamwork and any attempt at it to be trying to ruin the game for them. Not sure how to even begin to fix that.)
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Only a immature A-hole would say something like this and only total A-holes would agree.

I cant say how wrong you are sir.

[MischiefSC]

KingCobra, on 02 March 2017 - 09:51 AM, said:

MischiefSC said (The people left pugging are literally people who view using teamwork in a game that is literally built around playing in teams as the next worst thing to cheating and just listening on TS to calls to be exactly like joining the military IRL and going through boot camp.

With people like that you don't even have a basis for communicating. It's impossible to play FW without dropping in a team of 4 or 12 against a team of 4 or 12 and yet they view teamwork and any attempt at it to be trying to ruin the game for them. Not sure how to even begin to fix that.)
===============================================================================================

Only a immature A-hole would say something like this and only total A-holes would agree.

I cant say how wrong you are sir.

Except I've had people say exactly that to me in discussions on the topic. That's not my opinion, it's what has been said more than once by people saying why they won't enable voip or follow calls on a drop.

That's exactly my point - it's so absurd and asinine how do you even start a rational discussion or try to find a common ground with someone saying something like that?

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 02 March 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

Except I've had people say exactly that to me in discussions on the topic. That's not my opinion, it's what has been said more than once by people saying why they won't enable voip or follow calls on a drop.

That's exactly my point - it's so absurd and asinine how do you even start a rational discussion or try to find a common ground with someone saying something like that?

I find myself wondering how this terrible behavior is fostered.

I'm sure most people watch some TV... and then see how people work together to solve things (it doesn't matter what the goal is necessarily, but it's a team thing). Then again, there's always some small group that associates with "this guy that can do it all himself", except not realizing that 99% of people are not like this (aka "You are no Einstein") and almost always have secondary help to succeed.

Working together is not supposed to be an adversarial tool - it's supposed to be about working to a common goal. If your goal is not the same as other people (aka trying to win), then what is the point? You can't do everything by yourself. There's a reason why 2v1s work, and if you're on the side with the 1, did you think what you did through? Is help an evil concept? Unless you are the 1% that literally has the power to do everything (like be an actual member of EmP or be like Proton), you're not going to magically succeed on your own.

Even if you're doing your own solo thing, even your "teammates" are the cannon fodder that allowed you to succeed (or generally fail) because they would have normally drawn the aggression that would have been normally been meant for you (occasionally people will punish you for soloing in the first place).


But hey... I guess you can do things all by yourself... and die alone. I mean, yea.

It's hard to live in a society without even one friend... let alone MWO.

[Sniper09121986]

MischiefSC, on 01 March 2017 - 11:08 PM, said:

It's impossible to play FW without dropping in a team of 4 or 12 against a team of 4 or 12 and yet they view teamwork and any attempt at it to be trying to ruin the game for them. Not sure how to even begin to fix that.

TWIAFU, on 02 March 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:

You cannot fix it.

The very least they can do is to try. Just implement the solo/group queues in FP (not unit/non-unit like it was rigged the last time), then move all quick play matches to FP and get rid of quick play altogether. If you are riding an IS mech you land in IS side of a match, and in reverse. To ensure some numerical parity implement modifying match earnings based on faction population (pretty much like it is done already). Oh and guess what, start awarding planetary MC on individual basis based on the number of drops and wins on that planet (again, already implemented via back-end tickets for individual players, only now they are counted only for units and lumped together for the whole unit). Busting my buttocks just so that some unit boys can award themselves with MC was exactly what threw me out of FP back when it was implemented. Not that the sum is too big, but the precedent itself, right after queue rigging...

[MischiefSC]

I've said a million times we need better tools to help get new players up to speed. I'd rather new players learn to play in. FW environment, learning teamwork out of the gate instead of learning to be bad in QP and bringing that FW later. We need lobbies and we need better ways to invite people to group from a match and give links to TS in lobbies and matches. Without the ability to help onboard new players we're always going to have these issues.

[nehebkau]

MischiefSC, on 01 March 2017 - 10:46 PM, said:

No, he hits on a big part of the problem here -

to him and a lot of players us 'casuals with friends putting in a bit of effort' players are hardcore by comparison. There's a significant segment of 'I only play lore/I never play meta/I play my funsies builds in FW all the time' players who are so bad, for whom even shooting the same mech at the same time as their teammate or having a mech where all your weapons can shoot one target at the same time is such a reach, such a galactic stretch of effort beyond what they're willing to do that it seems 'Hawd Coar'.

That they don't even understand the difference between us and the actual hardcore players just illuminates how far a lot of people in MWO are from putting even a mustard seed of effort into being good at the game. Like any match where they actually pressed the W key or managed to shoot at an enemy and didn't choke on their own tongue was a glorious battle and a testament to their boundless skill and robbit stompy mastery.

When someone is so far down the ladder that 'sometimes we have a plan and we generally try to all stick to it' looks the same as Emp playing finals in MWOWC or Div A MRBC games....

what are you going to say to them? How do you even start?

You were trying to be funny, but the sad truth is that you hit on a very real aspect of human experience which has been well documented. If I recall correctly it is an adaptation of the Dunning-Kruger effect but I can't remember its exact name. Basically it demonstrates that some people don't even have the basic skill required to provide any meaningful assessment of work being done.

Edited by nehebkau, 02 March 2017 - 01:10 PM.

[KingCobra]

Misschief said (Except I've had people say exactly that to me in discussions on the topic. That's not my opinion, it's what has been said more than once by people saying why they won't enable voip or follow calls on a drop.
That's exactly my point - it's so absurd and asinine how do you even start a rational discussion or try to find a common ground with someone saying something like that? )
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My answer to your question is PUGS-CASUALS-AND NEW PLAYERS should never have been put up against groups in MWO from day 1.

PGI just let Pandora's box open to everything bad happening in MWO because the 2 types of players and player mentality should have been split and groups could have played just groups in hard core mode Solaris style and FP and the rest could have been Johnny Rambo in the solo-pug-casual-new player queues.

PGI could have advanced MWO gameplay and features X100 if all this bickering had not come to point of frustration in this game from so many uninstalled players and what's left of the player base and community.

But today is today hopefully PGI has a better learning curve for the future than the past 4 years.
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MischiefSC said ( I've said a million times we need better tools to help get new players up to speed.)

After training over a 1000 new players in BattleTech and MechWarrior since TT and MechWarrior 2 the fist step is communication with players which is why MWO fails and needs Socialization tools like a huge universal chat lobby with private rooms inside.

Second you need one on one and group training in a private drop atmosphere so the new pilots can learn the ropes and also mech load outs ETC ETC.

Its the only way in any team game it really works without this everyone becomes a Arnold Terminator with unlimited ammo.

Edited by KingCobra, 02 March 2017 - 01:25 PM.

[nehebkau]

KingCobra, on 02 March 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

My answer to your question is PUGS-CASUALS-AND NEW PLAYERS should never have been put up against groups in MWO from day 1.

the Day-Z of the stompy-stompy-robot world.

[Sniper09121986]

MischiefSC, on 02 March 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

we're always going to have these issues.

This. Not like I object to your suggested improvements, or any improvements for that matter, but the ugly fact is there is simply no making people do what they do not want to do. I only suggest to minimise the difference to them so that they can contribute in some fashion, which is better than no contribution at all, and get a better idea of what awaits them in group queue. If people want to experience that, then they go and find a team (like I did all the way back in Tuk-1), but if they do not, then no amount of banner blinking will force them into it

[TWIAFU]

KingCobra, on 02 March 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

My answer to your question is PUGS-CASUALS-AND NEW PLAYERS should never have been put up against groups in MWO from day 1.

Your right, they should not be allowed to drop in Group or CW until they are ready.

Clearly they do not read the warning message at CW, so they have to be further gated from entry. Clearly they are unable or unwilling to take personal responsibility for actions they take themselves and the situations they put themselves in. We have to stop them.

Your new player, casual, pug, and solo especially cannot drop in Group or CW. By the very choice of playstyle to choose to follow by their own choice, they should not be allowed to pollute other queues with a playstyle that does not belong there.

So, because you are solo, new, or casual, you have to stick to QP. You stick to the bottom of the barrel gameplay, enjoy the sludge you are stuck playing in. If you can ever bring yourself to suck it up, learn your are not the center of the universe and to succeed you must have others help, maybe then you can join a group and play in Group. Once you learn to be part of a team and work together as such, maybe then you can play in CW.

So, there you go. You and your casual, solo, new player friends are no long able to make the bad decision of joining in queues that so not support selfish, self centered, me me me, gameplay until you can learn to be a team player.

[KingCobra]

TWIAFU said (So, there you go. You and your casual, solo, new player friends are no long able to make the bad decision of joining in queues that so not support selfish, self centered, me me me, gameplay until you can learn to be a team player. )
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When you read posts like this guys you know MWO is dyeing out there extreme head size and a ego is astounding and all group players like this guy want to do is Seal Club new players solo and casuals until there is no one left to play MWO at all.

Why Russ listens to these kinds of players in groups we will never know but we do know one thing after 4 years they have almost killed off MWO and FP for the majority of MWO players.

[FallingAce]

I will expand on what Ash said

justcallme A S H, on 01 March 2017 - 03:12 PM, said:

Do you know why? Well, I can tell you don't. But here is a quick histroy lesson:

Most of the teams stopped playing at FP3, that is when the mass exodus of big teams ended. FP2/FP3 actually allowed teams to seek out teams by looking at the queue etc. We did it often, good times were had.

After FP luanches though units fell apart because FP3 was as much of a joke as FP4.1
eg:
- MS would have would have 4-6 12mans running all the time. Now they are lucky if there is 1 in US phase
- NS barely play anymore, they would usually have 1-2 teams rolling all the time
- HHoD would have a TS overflowing with teams all the time
- Lots of loyalists gave up (part cause of no extra loyalist tree).

None of that is anecdotal, it's a fact - The population was killed with FP3. FP4.1 fixes none of the core failures of FP3, it just brought in QP modes.

What's really killing/killed faction play?

Phase 3.1
1. The God Tom. Drove many players not only out of Faction Warfare but out of MWO all together.

2. Revised Contract system
a. A.K.A. the loyalist penalty. Gave the mercs their own faction complete with reward tree while royally screwing the loyalist.
b. Merc contracts based on overall population and not active population. Large inactive populations skews results.

3. The dartboard of balance. Continually nerfing I.S. mechs while Jade Falcon was cutting a path through the Innersphere map.
Had the bonus effect of driving most merc units to the clan side. Which lead to...

4. Poor player distribution. Not only did most of the mercs jump to the clan side, they all happened to land in Jade Falcon. Planets were at 100% within the 1st 2 hours, yet teams were still qued 5 deep on Jade Falcon attacks. Meanwhile, Clan Wolf, Bear , and Smoke Jag were pushed back to their homeworlds. Imagine if those 5 groups queued to attack already conquered planets were distributed across the other factions.

5. The voting system. At one point Kurita had 4 factions attacking it, yet it didn't have the player population to defend against one.

6. Reduced buckits. Yes i said it. Less buckits made thing worse. Those 5 queued Jade Falcon groups had no where else to go. Less bukits also meant less planet tags available.

So how did phase 4.1 address these issues?

1. The God Tom. After 8 months of killing the population, it was finally removed.

2. Revised Contract system
a. Loyalist penalty still remains. Promise of unique Loyalist events still vaporware.
b. Merc contracts still based on overall population.
c. Merc contract still tied to factions? WHY? Since mercs being tied to a faction is now meaningless, merc contract should be based on which side they are aligned with, I.S. or Clan.

3. The dartboard of balance. Guess we finally found out that I.S. needs an extra 5 tons/mech to achieve some semblance of balance.

4. Player distribution
Simple concept. For every Clan player, you need an I.S. player.
Month 1, Clan long wait times, I.S. instadrops.
Month 2 I.S. long wait times Clan instadrops.
Month 3, Clan long wait times, I.S. instadrops.
Might have something to do with the mech of the month.
Definitely has something to do with the distribution of the mercs.

5. Voting is pretty much meaningless, so it don't matter.

6. So we gave up buckits in the mistaken belief that it would lead to shorter wait times. It didn't work(see #4)
Real effect was it made planets meaningless, made factions meaningless and made loyalty meaningless. Everything that was special and unique about faction warfare was stripped away for quickplay 2.0

Too much time is spent blaming the players for the shortcoming of the game design.
Notice, not once did i mention the lurmers, the noobs, the people that bring crap builds, or the people that don't want to play as a team *cough* Davion Scum *cough*.



Faction play 4.2 still won't address these core issues.

Edited by FallingAce, 04 March 2017 - 09:12 PM.

[Contrex]

Its all about matchmaking.
There is just no fun to fight T5-T3 players.

Its no fun for us to stomp them, its no fun for them to get stomped.


____


Next point - Dropzone camping
Every ***** single game we have to walk to the enemy dropzone and get them out of there.
People and even whole top 10 (factionplay leaderboard teams) just hiding in the dropzone.
After we killed them in their own dropzone, they blame us dropzone farming.
So they feel like getting dropzonefarmed, we feel like they are abusing dropships = Bad feedlings for everyone

Solution. Create one single dropzone for the complete team with 4 gates on different sides. You cant get in from the outside, but everyone in there has to leave the zone within of 30 seconds. Otherwise the mech gets pushed out randomly.

Dropzonecamping solved.

________

Balancing is not a problem (within the 265 vs 240 tonns)
The game is quite balanced. Main problem is: Clan is easier to play.
So the hole balance discussion would not hit anyone who plays within his own Tier.
At least the T1 Teams would not give a ****.

Edited by Contrex, 04 March 2017 - 09:44 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Contrex, on 04 March 2017 - 09:42 PM, said:

Next point - Dropzone camping
Every ***** single game we have to walk to the enemy dropzone and get them out of there.
People and even whole top 10 (factionplay leaderboard teams) just hiding in the dropzone.
After we killed them in their own dropzone, they blame us dropzone farming.
So they feel like getting dropzonefarmed, we feel like they are abusing dropships = Bad feedlings for everyone

Top 10 leaderboard teams DZ Camp? What is this?

We are almost there & we've fought EVIL, KCom, EK, MS, D'C, MJ12 etc etc.
Can't say in any of those games has the other team DZ camped or whatever.

I can only think of 1 game of DZ camping that I watched on twitch, but given how bad those players are - it was no surprise they had to do it to win.