206 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 06:42 PM, said:

Or...hear me out...we could just leave balance-upsetting things out of the game.

/shrug

not sure how that is blance upsetting, or any more than anythign else already in

[The6thMessenger]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 06:42 PM, said:

Or...hear me out...we could just leave balance-upsetting things out of the game.

/shrug

Wouldn't anything new would upset the current balance?

[Andi Nagasia]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 March 2017 - 06:41 PM, said:

OK, that makes sense. Clans would love it, though to make it "fair" either it would need about a 1 second slower cooldown.

i agree, though, decreasing Velocity could also help balance it,
remember IS should get their SN-PPC so the Clan I-PPC shouldnt out shine the IS-PPC,
also the Clan I-PPC also has a min range just like the IS-PPC so theirs that as well,

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 06:42 PM, said:

Or...hear me out...we could just leave balance-upsetting things out of the game.

/shrug

then Clan wouldnt get heavy lasers because they are Seen as being OP, not that they will be OP,
they could be balanced, and arnt really Balance upsetting if you think about it,

i mean IS should get their Heavy PPC(3067) & PPC Capacitor(3060),
with this IS could have a (11Ton / 5Crit) weapon that does (20Damage @ 20Heat) up to 540m,
thats an Energy AC20 that could be used to Compliment Energy Mechs, as well as Mixed Mechs,
a CAT-K2= with 2HPPC+C(Arm Mounted Energy AC40) or a Cooler 1HPPC+C & 1AC20(torso Mounted),

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 March 2017 - 06:55 PM, said:

not sure how that is blance upsetting, or any more than anythign else already in

One of the things, if not the only thing, keeping the meta Clan pop-tarts in check is heat ruining their ability to stop a push. Take that away by giving them cold-running iPPCs and, well....

Basically, take the sustainability of the Night Gyr and remove the Gauss charge. Heck, at 6 tons, 2 slots, and only 10 heat each, they might even be cold enough to alpha three of them with the massed cDHS. So much potential for bad things here.

The6thMessenger, on 12 March 2017 - 06:55 PM, said:

Wouldn't anything new would upset the current balance?

Upsetting as in it pushes away from center. New IS gear mostly pushes it toward center (fun fact: you can build a Black Knight with 3xLL+5xML+19xDHS on an LFE 375 using Light Ferro, Small Cockpit, and XL Gyro...it's pretty awesome). New Clan gear most pushes away from center.

Andi Nagasia, on 12 March 2017 - 06:59 PM, said:

then Clan wouldnt get heavy lasers because they are Seen as being OP, not that they will be OP,
they could be balanced, and arnt really Balance upsetting if you think about it,

I have thought about it, and they are balance-upsetting and will require some fairly strict ghost-heat triggers to rein them in.

Quote

i mean IS should get their Heavy PPC(3067) & PPC Capacitor(3060),
with this IS could have a (11Ton / 5Crit) weapon that does (20Damage @ 20Heat) up to 540m,
thats an Energy AC20 that could be used to Compliment Energy Mechs, as well as Mixed Mechs,
a CAT-K2= with 2HPPC+C(Arm Mounted Energy AC40) or a Cooler 1HPPC+C & 1AC20(torso Mounted),

I have zero expectation that the PPC Capacitor will get in, but I'm open to being surprised. Even if it did, though, all that gets us is something to compete with the KDK-3 and TBR-tarts...which pushes balance closer to center. So you might say those are actually necessary, while Clan iPPC are not.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 12 March 2017 - 07:09 PM.

[InspectorG]

Mister Blastman, on 09 March 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

That's how many c-bills are going to be flushed down the drain with the new quirk system.

:-|

How many skill nodes do you need to unlock to make Snub Nose PPCs viable?

Dan Brown has the answer.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

One of the things, if not the only thing, keeping the meta Clan pop-tarts in check is heat ruining their ability to stop a push. Take that away by giving them cold-running iPPCs and, well....

Basically, take the sustainability of the Night Gyr and remove the Gauss charge. Heck, at 6 tons, 2 slots, and only 10 heat each, they might even be cold enough to alpha three of them with the massed cDHS. So much potential for bad things here.



Upsetting as in it pushes away from center. New IS gear mostly pushes it toward center (fun fact: you can build a Black Knight with 3xLL+5xML+19xDHS on an LFE 375 using Light Ferro, Small Cockpit, and XL Gyro...it's pretty awesome). New Clan gear most pushes away from center.



I have thought about it, and they are balance-upsetting and will require some fairly strict ghost-heat triggers to rein them in.



I have zero expectation that the PPC Capacitor will get in, but I'm open to being surprised. Even if it did, though, all that gets us is something to compete with the KDK-3 and TBR-tarts...which pushes balance closer to center. So you might say those are actually necessary, while Clan iPPC are not.

or we......hear me out...... could just kill poptarting once and for all so we can actualyl get on to having proper guns in the game. I hate to kill a tactic completely, but since most of our balance woes seems to always end up leading back to toaster pastries... **** em

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 March 2017 - 07:12 PM, said:

or we......hear me out...... could just kill poptarting once and for all so we can actualyl get on to having proper guns in the game. I hate to kill a tactic completely, but since most of our balance woes seems to always end up leading back to toaster pastries... **** em

Well, that's the thing: which option causes more collateral? Leaving iPPCs out seams to cause less than killing pop-tarting, which also kills certain 'Mechs (muh Mist Lynx) through the necessary changes to JJs and such.

Kill all forms of pop-tarting, including jump-brawling, or leave out a gun that is mostly redundant in the first place...hmmm...

[Alan Davion]

InspectorG, on 12 March 2017 - 07:08 PM, said:

How many skill nodes do you need to unlock to make Snub Nose PPCs viable?

Dan Brown has the answer.

This is the big problem with the way PGI is doing things.

The new tech should have come first. Then the skill trees so that all the new tech could be accounted for.

Now they'll likely have to go back to the skill tress in like 6 months after they release the new stuff and completely redo the trees to account for the new tech.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 07:24 PM, said:

Well, that's the thing: which option causes more collateral? Leaving iPPCs out seams to cause less than killing pop-tarting, which also kills certain 'Mechs (muh Mist Lynx) through the necessary changes to JJs and such.

Kill all forms of pop-tarting, including jump-brawling, or leave out a gun that is mostly redundant in the first place...hmmm...

But IS this the only weapon that tactic causes issues with? I'd say it's already causing issues with the weapons we have, let alone things like Heavy Gauss?

[Andi Nagasia]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

One of the things, if not the only thing, keeping the meta Clan pop-tarts in check is heat ruining their ability to stop a push. Take that away by giving them cold-running iPPCs and, well....

well it only has 90m-540m range just the the IS-PPC, as well as the IS-PPC Damage and Heat,
its just another PPC option for Clans, which is good as IS will get 5PPC options soon, & more with the PPC-Capacitor,
(PPC)(ERPPC)(SN-PPC)(Light PPC)(Heavy PPC)(PPC Capacitor)

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

Basically, take the sustainability of the Night Gyr and remove the Gauss charge. Heck, at 6 tons, 2 slots, and only 10 heat each, they might even be cold enough to alpha three of them with the massed cDHS. So much potential for bad things here.

but you wont beable to as all PPCs are linked to a Penalty Group of 2, firing 3 will get you 40.5Heat,
so in this Case i feel Ghost Heat will stop the Boating of Clan I-PPCs as they will be very very hot,

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

Upsetting as in it pushes away from center. New IS gear mostly pushes it toward center (fun fact: you can build a Black Knight with 3xLL+5xML+19xDHS on an LFE 375 using Light Ferro, Small Cockpit, and XL Gyro...it's pretty awesome). New Clan gear most pushes away from center.

they get lots of more options, many of which Clan mechs dont have access too,

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

I have thought about it, and they are balance-upsetting and will require some fairly strict ghost-heat triggers to reign them in.

they arnt though, they arnt a very good poptart weapon as they only reach out to 540,
with that they still also have a Min Range, as such get inside that and they are useless,
they have advantages but also disadvantages, which i feel would balance them,

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

I have zero expectation that the PPC Capacitor will get in, but I'm open to being surprised. Even if it did, though, all that gets us is something to compete with the KDK-3 and TBR-tarts...which pushes balance closer to center. So you might say those are actually necessary, while Clan iPPC are not.

i feel the PPC Capacitor is a nessesity and adds so much to the game, so many more options,
now adding a PPC Capacitor to your PPC may cause it to become a Charge Fire weapon but thats ok,

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 07:24 PM, said:

Well, that's the thing: which option causes more collateral? Leaving iPPCs out seams to cause less than killing pop-tarting, which also kills certain 'Mechs (muh Mist Lynx) through the necessary changes to JJs and such.

Kill all forms of pop-tarting, including jump-brawling, or leave out a gun that is mostly redundant in the first place...hmmm...

the Clan I-PPC wont suddenly become OP, and its not Redundant ether,
thats like saying the normal IS-PPC should be removed as we are getting the SN-PPC,
the Clan-I-PPC works just like the IS-PPC, when Compared to the ER-PPC, its an option,

[FLG 01]

Andi Nagasia, on 11 March 2017 - 08:43 PM, said:

ya the I-PPC hasnt been added to Sarna yet, which im abit annoyed with,
Table from CGL's, Interstellar Operations which came out Jan 2016, Sarna should have been updated by now,

(I-PPCs (LosTech2822)(ReintroducedTech3060)

Ah, that is small mistake from the beta; the final version says 3080. That makes a whole lot more sense since the Escorpión Imperio (EI) was not even a thing in 3060. The EI generally revived many of the early ClanTech weapons in 3080; they all have that date.
Both, enhanced and improved PPC unfortunately don't exist in MWO's timeframe. I am not totally opposed to their introduction but they are not my first choices...

Here is the updated table:

[Andi Nagasia]

FLG 01, on 12 March 2017 - 07:42 PM, said:

Ah, that is small mistake from the beta; the final version says 3080. That makes a whole lot more sense since the Escorpión Imperio (EI) was not even a thing in 3060. The EI generally revived many of the early ClanTech weapons in 3080; they all have that date.
Both, enhanced and improved PPC unfortunately don't exist in MWO's timeframe. I am not totally opposed to their introduction but they are not my first choices...

Here is the updated table:

O so its 3080? ok that makes a bit more Sense from Lore,

[Andi Nagasia]

well i guess that takes the I-PPC out of the Running for weapons for the Jump,
being 3080 i doubt it will be added, Sorry guys i seem to have spread Mis information,

[Bishop Steiner]

FLG 01, on 12 March 2017 - 07:42 PM, said:

Ah, that is small mistake from the beta; the final version says 3080. That makes a whole lot more sense since the Escorpión Imperio (EI) was not even a thing in 3060. The EI generally revived many of the early ClanTech weapons in 3080; they all have that date.
Both, enhanced and improved PPC unfortunately don't exist in MWO's timeframe. I am not totally opposed to their introduction but they are not my first choices...

Here is the updated table:

one more reason they are my favorite "latter day faction". Loved the Goliath Scorpions, love the whole Nuevo Castille setting, and really like the combo, especially with the canon rumors that might also tie part of that warrior society to a lost scouting expedition from the fleeing Clan Wolverine. In fact, my MWDA era RPG character is an EI Seeker with a dark secret and a modified Stag II battlemech.

[FLG 01]

Andi Nagasia, on 12 March 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

well i guess that takes the I-PPC out of the Running for weapons for the Jump,
being 3080 i doubt it will be added, Sorry guys i seem to have spread Mis information,

Absolutely not your fault, don't worry.
Thanks for making the effort to spread info in the first place.

[Bishop Steiner]

FLG 01, on 12 March 2017 - 07:55 PM, said:

Absolutely not your fault, don't worry.
Thanks for making the effort to spread info in the first place.

Agreed. There is a lot of the newer stuff I need to catch up on, and this was my first time hearing about the I-PPC. Honestly, it adds a nice DA option, though I think they should have bumped it's heat, or shortened it's range a little to or reduced dmg by 1 or something so as not to be a straight upgrade from the PPC, but that was the case with most tech jump weapons, like the E-ERPPC, let alone "true" Clan Tech.

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 March 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

But IS this the only weapon that tactic causes issues with? I'd say it's already causing issues with the weapons we have, let alone things like Heavy Gauss?

I would agree that it is causing issues with what we have, but to a lesser degree than what we'd get with iPPC added into the game because heat is still a major factor (and IS has other issues like explodey XLs not playing nice with Gauss rifles in side torsos and the extra weight of PPCs and Gauss together requiring a smaller engine).

Heavy Gauss is too heavy (lel) to poptart with, especially because it mandates a STD engine by occupying 11 slots. Gimmick status.

The best IS pop-tarts would be 2x HPPC, 1x HPPC + 1x Gauss, or 1x HPPC+Cap + 1x Gauss. Those would be as problematic as Clan pop-tarts are now at worst, so I'm less anxious over it because the game's sum power level hasn't creeped. The iPPC allows too much sustain with those smaller cDHS...and so I get anxiety over it.

Spoiler

Andi Nagasia, on 12 March 2017 - 07:38 PM, said:

well it only has 90m-540m range just the the IS-PPC, as well as the IS-PPC Damage and Heat,
its just another PPC option for Clans, which is good as IS will get 5PPC options soon, & more with the PPC-Capacitor,
(PPC)(ERPPC)(SN-PPC)(Light PPC)(Heavy PPC)(PPC Capacitor)

Being only 540 m is not a significant drawback when most combat happens around 600 meters anyway. The 90 meter minimum is also not a significant drawback; I've never had an issue with it personally.

Quote

but you wont beable to as all PPCs are linked to a Penalty Group of 2, firing 3 will get you 40.5Heat,
so in this Case i feel Ghost Heat will stop the Boating of Clan I-PPCs as they will be very very hot,

With 24 DHS, that's less than 50% of your heat cap. I can fire again immediately once cool-down is complete. I can probably fire again immediately once the next cool-down is complete, too, since it's dissipating between shots. That's quite powerful.

I can't do this with an IS 'Mech. I can only fit 20x DHS. That's actually a pretty huge difference (78 cap vs. 85 and 4.02 dissipation vs. 4.71).

At any rate, I am more concerned with combining the colder-running iPPCs with Gauss or cUAC/10s.

Quote

they get lots of more options, many of which Clan mechs dont have access too,

A.) That's the point

B.) Those options are all beating around the bush of what the Clan weapons can do...so it doesn't matter

Quote

they arnt though, they arnt a very good poptart weapon as they only reach out to 540,
with that they still also have a Min Range, as such get inside that and they are useless,
they have advantages but also disadvantages, which i feel would balance them,

As I said above, that's not a big drawback. Most engagements happen at around 600 meters anyway, because it gets hard to reliably hit targets the further you go from there. That's why ERLLs take over as the meta at 810+ meters. You only have to worry about people getting in under your guns if you can't get fire out onto them, which is where the heat reduction confounds things.

Quote

i feel the PPC Capacitor is a nessesity and adds so much to the game, so many more options,
now adding a PPC Capacitor to your PPC may cause it to become a Charge Fire weapon but thats ok,

Kind of outside the debate. I would like to see the Capacitor, but PGI has a propensity for avoiding anything more mechanically complex than point-and-click.

Quote

the Clan I-PPC wont suddenly become OP, and its not Redundant ether,
thats like saying the normal IS-PPC should be removed as we are getting the SN-PPC,
the Clan-I-PPC works just like the IS-PPC, when Compared to the ER-PPC, its an option,

The Snub Nose is mostly redundant, and I wouldn't really mind if the standard PPC were removed after its introduction because we'd have the much more divergent (and resource-efficient) Heavy and Light PPCs to pick it up for the 540 meter bracket. So, as far as debating with me is concerned, that's a weak position to take.

Clans don't need the option. Except the Shadowcat, maybe.

At any rate, it appears we don't have to worry about the iPPC anyway. Out of timeline and, to be frank, probably so obscure that PGI hadn't even thought about it.

[Bishop Steiner]

OK, will we get fresh teases today in advance of tomorrow's reveal? Keep eyes on the front page, twitter and facebook, in case the Devs are feeling sneaky again today!

[Mcgral18]

What time do they get into the office? 9 AM?
That's still 1.5 hours for them


They have a Skill Tree meeting, but maybe they've got some stuff ready to go
I'm not expecting anything additional today, and likely a 6 PM post tomorrow

[cazidin]

Alright. Tomorrow the dumpster fire shall grow to consume the entire island. Sorry but, there's going to be a lot of short term praise followed by long term sense of whelm.