365 replies to this topic

[naterist]

Naglinator, on 27 April 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

I copied and pasted Fascism and Literally so you wouldn't use the words incorrectly. Judging by the length of your post i should've posted succinct for you as well...

It's funny how your first link still has DICTATORIAL leader as needed for fascism. If anything, clans are a limited franchise democracy(by the way, as I know you don't know, almost all democracies are limited by franchise). Khans are elected(usually) by bloodnames warriors. They intern lead the military government. Depending on the clan, episicially Star Adder, Wolf to name a few, the civilians have their own internal governments. Every castes has 20 ranks which intern govern themselves. Adders have the adjunct, blah blah.  

Also, if you botherd to read your precious wikipedia, fascists states are a mix of PRIVATE and PUBLIC property and industries.  Thought they both try to meet the demand of the state the private industries are still quite private. The US total war in WW2 isn't very much different then how the Germans ran their economy. I'm not going to get into the Clan economics but they are VASTLY different the mussonli's Corporatism and the Third Way of {Godwin's Law}. For the first time in blood wolfs life, he was semi right. They are much more of a socialist/communist economy. Again, communism isn't a form of government so the military rule of the clans DOESNT take away from the communism.  

So the clans lasted 300 years prior to the IS introduction. Bondsmen were exclusively warrior caste member who essentially switched sides after a defeat. During the short time of clan history which we now call Revival(2 years) The clans kept this practice against captured freebirth scum soldiers of the IS. They did not REALIZE that this was seen as slavery. To clan warriors it is an honour not a mark of servitude. So some clans stopped this practice, some kept it. To say ALL clans are SLAVERS because of the actions of a few is to us the Kuritans as the only example of how an IS house is. So please don't use childish words like slavers or fascists without using them right. Almost EVERY great house is totalitarian when it comes to government if you want to be picky, and while ANYONE in clan wolf COULD become Khan... only a Davion will rule House Davion.  Mertiocracy vs. Aristocracy.   Or i can be a child and be like "Clans are {Godwin's Law}'s, IS is like Space America". **** facts right?

Ok, first, the clanners used bondsmen as slaves, they just dressed it up in culture. Theres no saving that. 2nd, dont feel too bad, no single faction is all golden and wonderful, not even the davions. Every faction is led by a *****. Thats the glory of battletech, there are no 'good' people. Its all different shades of grey. For example, Im sure the jags thought turtle bay was a morally justifiable kinda thing.

As for clanners specifically, the whole freebirth-trueborn relationship (racism in space) is just too much for me, phelan kell and aiden pryde are cool outliers, but that clan-wide relationship between the two groups is just too much to me.

[Naglinator]

Again clan specific. Many clans treated freebirths equally. Also, intra clan bondsmanship is not slavery.

[MischiefSC]

Naglinator, on 27 April 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

I copied and pasted Fascism and Literally so you wouldn't use the words incorrectly. Judging by the length of your post i should've posted succinct for you as well...

It's funny how your first link still has DICTATORIAL leader as needed for fascism. If anything, clans are a limited franchise democracy(by the way, as I know you don't know, almost all democracies are limited by franchise). Khans are elected(usually) by bloodnames warriors. They intern lead the military government. Depending on the clan, episicially Star Adder, Wolf to name a few, the civilians have their own internal governments. Every castes has 20 ranks which intern govern themselves. Adders have the adjunct, blah blah.

Also, if you botherd to read your precious wikipedia, fascists states are a mix of PRIVATE and PUBLIC property and industries. Thought they both try to meet the demand of the state the private industries are still quite private. The US total war in WW2 isn't very much different then how the Germans ran their economy. I'm not going to get into the Clan economics but they are VASTLY different the mussonli's Corporatism and the Third Way of {Godwin's Law}. For the first time in blood wolfs life, he was semi right. They are much more of a socialist/communist economy. Again, communism isn't a form of government so the military rule of the clans DOESNT take away from the communism.

So the clans lasted 300 years prior to the IS introduction. Bondsmen were exclusively warrior caste member who essentially switched sides after a defeat. During the short time of clan history which we now call Revival(2 years) The clans kept this practice against captured freebirth scum soldiers of the IS. They did not REALIZE that this was seen as slavery. To clan warriors it is an honour not a mark of servitude. So some clans stopped this practice, some kept it. To say ALL clans are SLAVERS because of the actions of a few is to us the Kuritans as the only example of how an IS house is. So please don't use childish words like slavers or fascists without using them right. Almost EVERY great house is totalitarian when it comes to government if you want to be picky, and while ANYONE in clan wolf COULD become Khan... only a Davion will rule House Davion. Mertiocracy vs. Aristocracy. Or i can be a child and be like "Clans are {Godwin's Law}'s, IS is like Space America". **** facts right?

I was going to post what Dictatorial is and such but you requested we take the discussion offline (after posting an insulting and flat out incorrect response) so I'll honor that. To clarify just fascism and slavery, both terms are used exactly correct. Fascism does not require a dictatorship or preclude the election of a dictator. It simply lacks the balance of power via, for example, executive, legislative and judicial branches. It's identified by the lack of rights and totalitarian authority of the single party government, the absolute oppression by force of any opposition and the alignment of all facets of society to support the military - which exists to exert and expand the power and authority of the nationalist state over everything that isn't part of the state.

Slavery is the owning of people. The elimination of any human/civil/legal rights and to identify them as property. Saying you'll free them later after X criteria is met is irrelevant. If you own them, they are slaves. That's what the word means. Calling them something else doesn't change anything.

I'll end with the words of Ulric Kerensky:

Quote

Anastasius Focht: "I've never know [sic] of another organization in which a soldier would put himself on report for assault."
Ulric Kerensky: "If you damaged another's property you would tell the owner, quineg?"
Phelan Kell: "Yes, but ... Wait a minute, property?"
Ulric Kerensky: "Simply speaking, Phelan Kell, you belong to me."

-Lethal Heritage, end of chapter 14

[Natural Predator]

MischiefSC, on 26 April 2017 - 06:47 AM, said:

You're just playing against more pugs. I've been playing organized teams of 6+ 2 out of 3 matches.

If you're not dominating as Clans you're not bringing enough MAD IIC. When in doubt, bring more Scorch.

Linebackers too. A bit of a sleeper hit for FW. However on Polar the ability to get a 65 tonnes 2/3 across Polar before the enemy is 1 grid from their dropzone.... yeah, good clean family fun.

Not to retread your point but I missed something you said. You argued I play mostly pugs. I disagree. I would say 50 maybe 60 percent pugs and 40 percent organized drops. In fact I have dropped against you brother man. I think we're about even split versus kcom. 07

[justcallme A S H]

AlphaEtOmega, on 27 April 2017 - 08:25 AM, said:

Spoiler

I don’t judge from the score screen. The score screen is just an easy way to see which Mechs where used.

I judge from “Current League Standing” and “Past Season Performance”.

https://mrbcleague.c....php?teamid=153



You mean Drops like this


or this

lol @ that 3rd LRM drop, those IS mechs got totally outplayed, it would seem.

Examples from one specific team, great stuff. Now show examples from all teams across all regions, you know, a half reasonable sample space.

You will see Clan is much more heavily favoured. And that's just the truth of it.

[Rushin Roulette]

AlphaEtOmega, on 27 April 2017 - 08:25 AM, said:

I don’t judge from the score screen. The score screen is just an easy way to see which Mechs where used.

I judge from “Current League Standing” and “Past Season Performance”.

https://mrbcleague.c....php?teamid=153



You mean Drops like this


or this

Ummm... I dont get your point of these screenshots in your argument... The team with more Clan mechs won both fights.

As has been said before. Drop 1 is not a fair representative, as the fights are over much faster than in any other round, where Speed and tankiness are needed.

The only Clan mechs which are half way usefull in that round are Jenner IIC (Speed + Alpha damage), Arctic Cheetah (Speed), Nova (Size) and Ice Ferret (Speed). Everything else is in the hands of the IS with the faster overall lights (Spider mainly) or tankier Mediums (as long as the quirks are still existent).

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 27 April 2017 - 08:57 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

We run almost an exclusive Clan deck for drop 1 as it fits with out strat, and that's what it comes down to a lot of the time.

While EON are the best EU, they didn't best the best US, the MWOOC finals were way Clan Heavy, for a reason.
Not taking away from EON either, great guys and brilliant players. I've dropped / chatted to them a number of times if I'm on during the EU zone

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

Ragnar Baron Leiningen, on 19 April 2017 - 09:17 AM, said:

So I've been dropping IS for about two weeks now. I honestly do not know what is pilots are crying about clans so hard for. My mechs have zero modules on them. (Separate account, very little play time until recently) and I can at least do 1200 damage and 3-4 kills. I mean if you guys would just organize at least into 6-8 mans and learn how to torso twist you would be significantly better. Is mechs run cooler, they are more durable. I don't understand how IS pilots are not stomping the **** out off clans every night. Playing clan requires finess, heat management, managing your fall back points ahead of time. Playing IS should be a cakewalk by comparison.

obviously clan player

[Natural Predator]

SHRedo, on 28 April 2017 - 12:09 AM, said:

obviously clan player

Been IS a solid 4 weeks. I am in zmom.

[MovinTarget]

Ragnar Baron Leiningen, on 28 April 2017 - 08:11 AM, said:

Been IS a solid 4 weeks. I am in zmom.

Lets write a book called "7 Habits of Highly Successful FP Players"!

Oh wait, you can fit it all in a post:

1 - GROUP THE F' UP!
2 - COORDINATE/COMMUNICATE
3 - BRING MECHS/LOADOUTS THAT *MAKE SENSE* FOR THE MAP/MODE
4 - IF YOU CAN'T DO #3, YOU NEED TO GO GET MOAR MECHS/WEAPONS
5 - LISTEN TO THOSE THAT KNOW BETTER THAN YOU AND LEARN FROM THEM
6 - DON'T BE AN INSUFFERABLE DOUCHE (was gonna make a joke about ZMOM but since I know most of them and get along with them...)
7 - GROUP THE F'N F' UP!

Edited by MovinTarget, 28 April 2017 - 08:59 AM.

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

MovinTarget, on 28 April 2017 - 08:35 AM, said:

Lets write a book called "7 Habits of Highly Successful FP Players"!

Oh wait, you can fit it all in a post:

1 - GROUP THE F' UP!
2 - COORDINATE/COMMUNICATE
3 - BRING MECHS/LOADOUTS THAT *MAKE SENSE* FOR THE MAP/MODE
4 - IF YOU CAN'T DO #3, YOU NEED TO GO GET MOAR MECHS/WEAPONS
5 - LISTEN TO THOSE THAT KNOW BETTER THAN YOU AND LEARN FROM THEM
6 - DON'T BE AN INSUFFERABLE DOUCHE (was gonna make a joke about ZMOM but since I know most of them and get along with them...)
7 - GROUP THE F'N F' UP!

8 - play in easy mode all the time

[justcallme A S H]

Easy mode, as in Clan?

I prefer IS - It's far more rewarding as a player IMO. You get into range with that IS LPL, Clan has an incredibly hard time, and you can do that via...

#1 & #7

[Natural Predator]

justcallme A S H, on 28 April 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

Easy mode, as in Clan?

I prefer IS - It's far more rewarding as a player IMO. You get into range with that IS LPL, Clan has an incredibly hard time, and you can do that via...

#1 & #7

I think he's referring to me. I've owned shreds a few times so probably some bad feelings there. But like I said IS 4 straight weeks and I stand by my belief that IS is actually easier. I realize I play with some really great players as well but after being a clan loyalist for almost a year the difference is very palpable

[MovinTarget]

IS can be equal to, if not better than the clans in the right circumstances and to be fair, if you're space poor, it would seem harder to fill your stable with viable IS mechs because you'd need quite a few...

They aren't cheaper, not after mix/maxing... getting rid of the rule of three will help though.

I am trying to throw in some levity because those of us that have been playing earnestly for a while and have the bays and money to have specialist mechs at the ready... we just may need to recognize that not everyone is in that position...

In some cades that may mean said person need to focus on increasing their stable, not whine about the injustices of FP...

Edited by MovinTarget, 29 April 2017 - 07:53 AM.

[B0oN]

I drive all mechs, both sides of the fence .
And you know what ? There´s brutal efficient massmurderer mechs on both sides .

Yes, clan mechs get played more often .
I guess that is mostly due to the straight up fact that a clan mech is easier to get to an efficient level, whereas IS machinery has a whole bunch of traps and footfalls to watch out for to get to the same level .

Outliers happen on both sides .

[naterist]

Naglinator, on 27 April 2017 - 11:01 AM, said:

Again clan specific. Many clans treated freebirths equally. Also, intra clan bondsmanship is not slavery.

well you know the south thought they were giving africans a pretty sweet deal too (honostly, this is how they thought) but history judges them differently. to clanners its the same. their like "wtf. we feed you, we house you, we let you be useful. so whats the problem?: the comparisons continue. some can earn warrior status if their bond-owner-guy was chill with them (equivalent to some slaves getting tiny wages and buying their freedom, if their masters were nice) freebirths in (most) clans were second class citizens. just like african americans in a sizable portion (i admit idk the average) of states were second class citizens.

they literally split racism and slavery to apply to two different groups in one socioty. tossed in oligarchy/communism to increase the scarefactor. and to top it all off solohma suicide squads are a thing.

there is very little defensable about the clans until well into the clan invasion when aidan prydes story and the integration of the occupation zones population and some of its customs pushed most clans into a somewhat respectable socioty. despite all the that, the most zealous clan had to be wiped out and turned into the star league and future space-america-of-the-sphere... im sorry i mean the republic of the spheres *****'s.

there are few heros in that universe, the clans are not one of them.

[Naglinator]

Seriously, still going on about the slave thing? Citizens cannot be sold or given away. They have free will within their society(They can go to school, get property, advance in their jobs(every caste has 20 ranks of progression) they have freedom of expression(though not so much anti clan expression, yet many current states have anti flag burning laws so there's that). They are not SLAVES. They have rights and freedom and also duties and responsibilities. Go to the mall and show your weiner around? Wait you cant? You'll get arrested. Damn these totalitarian salve owning Earth nations. It's a good thing they cant keep away from anyone, in a small room, for low pay, for weeks on end.. oh wait.. JURY DUTY. Slavery right? Good thing they cant put a gun in your hands and force you to die for the body politic... OH WAIT CONSCRIPTION. The clans are unique and different, and there are not good parallels with them on Earth. Honestly space ELVES are more in common in them then southern united states pre-1860s or of Fascist Europe/Japan. Trust me, the modern rich oligarchies.. I mean "democracies" of today think of you the same way a trueborn thinks of a freeborn. I was never defending the clans alone, but in context of the INNER SPHERE.

Trust me, no clanner EVER was this bad... http://cfw.sarna.net...=20110320151940

[Sniper09121986]

Naglinator, on 03 May 2017 - 10:05 AM, said:

Trust me, no clanner EVER was this bad... http://cfw.sarna.net...=20110320151940

In all honesty there were Ian Moon and Brett Andrews, but I treat them (and your example) more as plot devices than any sort of believable characters. Even Lincoln Osis had more personality and motive than these.

[Lily from animove]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 22 April 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

I mean, to be fair, the IS doesn't have a viable counter to the PPFLD poptart meta. IS has no Night Gyr equivalent that runs cool on the hottest maps, while being able to poptart PPFLD. Getting smoked by multiple Night Gyr pop-tarts while closing in an IS XL mech = teh suck

you don't need to poptart in FW. But this is the real issue, too many is pilots play clansytle with IS tech, and then yeah, that is going to fail.

Edited by Lily from animove, 04 May 2017 - 02:43 AM.

[Grus]

Clan isnt op. If we were hitting Tera in just a few days after a reset then id say yeah... but we arnt, more of a slow creep. Also it dosnt help the merc units can swap back and forth from IS to Clan on a whim depending on how the map looks. So that stat is hard to judge, because now we are talking about populations vs populations.