365 replies to this topic

[NocturnalBeast]

Odanan, on 05 December 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:

Honestly? I think this game is in the best balancing state since before the Clans showed up.

My unit alternates from Clan/IS every two weeks, and except some changes in play style, we have the same (great) results in Faction Play.

Agreed, although the buffs and nerfs are quite extensive, they are not to a point where the game loses it's MechWarrior / BATTLETECH roots, it is getting very close to turning into a generic robot shooter though.

[MischiefSC]

IS loses to Clan in equal skill. Hence the comp meta.

The lack of 1 to 1 balance, as Battletech adopted after the failboat of Clan release, is the crux of a lot of game issues. TT got 1 to 1 balance by total mixtech - every IS faction makes their own "Clan" tech. Everyone has the same Endo, FF, XLs, erppcs, etc.

So instead of that why don't we keep the existing tech but balance it 1 to 1. Lore says Clans are better pilots. When we require players to be top 10% in performance to play Clan mechs and require Clans to win 1 v 1 fights to take heavier mechs and all the other stuff I'll take "lore" as an argument. Until then we can acknowledge that even TT considered unbalanced tech a total failure and actually balance the game.

[Kubernetes]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 December 2017 - 05:46 PM, said:

Still is the same with the Linebacker. It spreads damage exceedingly well due to small size and phenomenal shape and still it has some pretty generous armor quirks. It's got 2/3s the armor quirks of a Dragon despite being twice the 'Mech the Dragon is when neither has quirks. Even CPLTs don't get defensive quirks like that.

It was way worse before the SPL nerf. Every decent unit on Clanside would bring 2-3 entire waves of just SPL Backers.

Movintarget: I used to bring Streaks on last wave back when Cicadas and Oxides were more prevalent. Against Assassins I prefer legging, so UACs and lasers.

[MovinTarget]

Kubernetes, on 06 December 2017 - 12:16 PM, said:

It was way worse before the SPL nerf. Every decent unit on Clanside would bring 2-3 entire waves of just SPL Backers.

Movintarget: I used to bring Streaks on last wave back when Cicadas and Oxides were more prevalent. Against Assassins I prefer legging, so UACs and lasers.

Yeah, loving the IS streaks for stripping the arms off those pesky clan MG lights...

[NocturnalBeast]

MovinTarget, on 06 December 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

Yeah, loving the IS streaks for stripping the arms off those pesky clan MG lights...

I love killing MG lights with the LMGs on my loyalty Griffin

[The Basilisk]

MischiefSC, on 06 December 2017 - 12:08 PM, said:

IS loses to Clan in equal skill. Hence the comp meta.

The lack of 1 to 1 balance, as Battletech adopted after the failboat of Clan release, is the crux of a lot of game issues. TT got 1 to 1 balance by total mixtech - every IS faction makes their own "Clan" tech. Everyone has the same Endo, FF, XLs, erppcs, etc.

So instead of that why don't we keep the existing tech but balance it 1 to 1. Lore says Clans are better pilots. When we require players to be top 10% in performance to play Clan mechs and require Clans to win 1 v 1 fights to take heavier mechs and all the other stuff I'll take "lore" as an argument. Until then we can acknowledge that even TT considered unbalanced tech a total failure and actually balance the game.

You claim a lot.
Most of it is simply a matter of opinion some things are just not realizable other are simply not true.
With the return of Kerenskys distorted and inhuman followers there was no new concept implemented into Battletech.
The techbases and available mechs where always unbalanced and the RARITY, AVAILABILITY and BATTLEVALUE systems where potent means to get balanced and fun fights.
What was problematic where the people ignoring the no mixtech rules and the rarity and availability rules.
In fact it was stated multiple times that IS and Clan Tech is completely incompatible to mix match.
The few extremely rare occassins where single IS Heros either drive complete Clan mechs or got their personal rides upgraded with clan stuff are absolute exceptions done by the few most super genius MechTechs available in the inner Sphere.
There was no genral mix matching of techbases nor where there different versions of clan tech within the Inner Sphere.

Maybe you mean "Starleague Tech" by "their own version of clan tech".

See the number of Clan mechs in the initial invasion never surpassed a low two diggit number of galaxys...that is below 1k Battlemechs.
The Is got roughly twenty times as much units but mostly cobbled together stuff more than a century...or even several centurys old.

MWOs problem is the oversimplification and unwillingness to implement Clan's as they should be....completely OP but roughly matched in a 2 to one fahion when compared with standart IS tech and 1.5 to 1 when compared with Starleague tech level.

Sadly the standart reaction of all to many people to this is: "Oh numbers.....that is to complicated for me lets go pewpew"

Also most ppl would be unwilling to simply "wait" till certain equipment becomes available to them because it is so rare or accept that they will only be able to ever drive a clan mech when they surpass a certain "skill level"

MW4 simply ignored the omnimech stuff and simplificated the construction rules to hardpoints of different categorys and sizes. Their concession was the implementation of grey slots. But even those where size restricted.
Back then I did not like it initially but very soon realized that this is the only way to effectively address the boating nonsense and balance both techbases.

Still I do not think that IS and Clan Tech is basicaly unbalanced in MWO.
Both have their distinct ups and downs.
But the mechs are...... or more specificaly PGIs twisted and distorted ideas of the mechs geos and sizes.

Except the Annihilator every single IS mech since the RESIZAGEDON was mediocre at best and most completely bull... on the other hand Clans got some of their finest mechs in this periode and even the mechs prior to the resizing did not fare too bad in contrary to most IS mechs.
Also the new tech did not help to offset the problems of many IS mechs one bit due to implementation of Clan Heavy Lasers.

Edited by The Basilisk, 07 December 2017 - 01:46 AM.

[MischiefSC]

The Basilisk, on 07 December 2017 - 01:43 AM, said:

You claim a lot.
Most of it is simply a matter of opinion some things are just not realizable other are simply not true.
With the return of Kerenskys distorted and inhuman followers there was no new concept implemented into Battletech.
The techbases and available mechs where always unbalanced and the RARITY, AVAILABILITY and BATTLEVALUE systems where potent means to get balanced and fun fights.
What was problematic where the people ignoring the no mixtech rules and the rarity and availability rules.
In fact it was stated multiple times that IS and Clan Tech is completely incompatible to mix match.
The few extremely rare occassins where single IS Heros either drive complete Clan mechs or got their personal rides upgraded with clan stuff are absolute exceptions done by the few most super genius MechTechs available in the inner Sphere.
There was no genral mix matching of techbases nor where there different versions of clan tech within the Inner Sphere.

Maybe you mean "Starleague Tech" by "their own version of clan tech".

See the number of Clan mechs in the initial invasion never surpassed a low two diggit number of galaxys...that is below 1k Battlemechs.
The Is got roughly twenty times as much units but mostly cobbled together stuff more than a century...or even several centurys old.

MWOs problem is the oversimplification and unwillingness to implement Clan's as they should be....completely OP but roughly matched in a 2 to one fahion when compared with standart IS tech and 1.5 to 1 when compared with Starleague tech level.

Sadly the standart reaction of all to many people to this is: "Oh numbers.....that is to complicated for me lets go pewpew"

Also most ppl would be unwilling to simply "wait" till certain equipment becomes available to them because it is so rare or accept that they will only be able to ever drive a clan mech when they surpass a certain "skill level"

MW4 simply ignored the omnimech stuff and simplificated the construction rules to hardpoints of different categorys and sizes. Their concession was the implementation of grey slots. But even those where size restricted.
Back then I did not like it initially but very soon realized that this is the only way to effectively address the boating nonsense and balance both techbases.

Still I do not think that IS and Clan Tech is basicaly unbalanced in MWO.
Both have their distinct ups and downs.
But the mechs are...... or more specificaly PGIs twisted and distorted ideas of the mechs geos and sizes.

Except the Annihilator every single IS mech since the RESIZAGEDON was mediocre at best and most completely bull... on the other hand Clans got some of their finest mechs in this periode and even the mechs prior to the resizing did not fare too bad in contrary to most IS mechs.
Also the new tech did not help to offset the problems of many IS mechs one bit due to implementation of Clan Heavy Lasers.

Except the novels were full of mixtech and references to IS units using captured Clan tech, Solaris implemented it very quickly and Battlevalue was always broken, it never worked. You could take your BV in vehicles and overwhelm people before they could kill them all, or I could take an Clan LPL boat and utterly destroy, easily, any IS mechs you want to buy for the same value. Same with CERPPCs, or just kiting. Clan tech utterly and completely broke the already iffy BV system.

In current Battletech, Dark Ages, all IS factions have mechs with Clan tech gear in them. CERPPCs for example are pretty much the go to PPC and it's always just assumed to be the Clan Tech version because everyone makes them. Look up pretty much any Dark Ages mech, you'll see it's all mixedtech. The closest thing to 'OP' is the Republic of the Sphere.

The idea of OP Clans vs numerous IS was not only an utter failure in tabletop it would be vastly more so in a FPS. So you want a game balanced by 'This team is vastly stronger than the other team' vs 'this team can die a lot more often'? So you think the majority of players would take the 'can die more often' side? Really? So you feel the player population would divide itself by skill level and population level with 60-70% wanting to play IS, where their 'advantage' is that they have more players to lose to superior Clan firepower... are you serious?

Beyond which OP Clan tech isn't somehow magically balanced to 1.5 to 1 or 2 to 1. There's absolutely no rationale of any sort for how that's just going to magically (and it would be magic) self-balance compared to 1 to 1 balance. It would still need carefully balanced, only it's far more complex to balance anything that way compared to 1 to 1 and you'd still need the players to volunteer to play the side where their main advantage is that they can bury the other team under their dead bodies.

Teamwork isn't somehow limited to one side either.

Also, once again, I see no reference to 'only the best players should play Clans' because that was absolutely part of the balance system. It wasn't just tech; Clan pilots had better piloting/gunnery. So , again, why not say that only the top 10% of players can play Clans? That would make Clans more OP, right?

Oh, wait. Nobody ever wants that. It somehow gets skipped in every discussion of the topic even though it's a huge, critical piece of the lore and balance mechanic. The lower piloting/gunnery average was a *huge* factor in Clan performance advantage but, yet, strangely, nobody ever talks about representing that in a FPS.

Because it's always the same BS munchkin arguments. It was a failed balance concept, abandoned by FASA/Wizkids/Catalyst and replaced with 1 to 1 balance. Even in tabletop.

[Wolfways]

Carl Vickers, on 20 April 2017 - 09:06 PM, said:

Clans are better for newbies getting to know the game.

IS is hard mode but if you can succeed in IS you will do very well in clans.

Both have their strengths and weaknesses, need to learn both to be truly effective in one or the other.

Imo clans are better for getting to know how to play. And if you then go to IS mechs it's like easy mode.
I play my clan account because I prefer clan (better looking mechs and clan lore).
I play IS when I just want to have more fun (I feel like a tank armourwise in IS mechs).

[NocturnalBeast]

Wolfways, on 07 December 2017 - 05:09 AM, said:

Imo clans are better for getting to know how to play. And if you then go to IS mechs it's like easy mode.
I play my clan account because I prefer clan (better looking mechs and clan lore).
I play IS when I just want to have more fun (I feel like a tank armourwise in IS mechs).

Actually most new players will overheat horribly in Clan Mechs and will only do partial damage with most clan energy weapons because of the long duration. Not to mention that most Clan Mechs have few, or no quirks.

[Evan Kurst]

Are we talking about classic BT?
Than I would agree, Clan Mechs are OP.

But we are playing a Battletech-based-Frist-Person-Action-Shooter and PGI did their best to balance both parties.
And in MWO non site is really OP.
Please keep in mind, OP means over powered.
Over powered means you can take a Tier 5 pilot put him into a Clan mech and he will totally destroy any Tier 2 Pilot siting in a IS Mech.

But from my point of view PGI did a really good job balancing Clan and IS.
Every Mech/Site can become OP if you learn to master your Mech/weapon load and work as a team.

[Electroflameageddon]

I tried an experiment this year.

I picked up the Origins pack and ran the Hunchback-IIC's for a little bit. I also ran my IS Hunchback's.

I figured that they were the same size, geometry, etc, so it would be a decent comparison.

The Deathwish is superior to the Grid Iron. Hands down. Depressingly so.

Other than that, I can do decently in my IS Hunchies as I can in the Clan Hunchies. Clan Hunchies take some getting used to, they are slightly more fragile and run hotter. I can pull around the same damage in these mechs regardless of whether they are Clan or IS, I just have to play slightly different depending on what I'm playing.

It really depends on the drops. Get a good pug (rare occasion) and it doesn't matter what you are dropping in. Play with higher tier players in group, it doesn't matter. You either git good, or die. If people are communicating, calling out targets and setting up good fields of fire the team usually wins.

I also ran the Jenners as a comparison, but since the resize, the Jenner isn't a mech I can run decently.

[MovinTarget]

Electroflameageddon, on 08 December 2017 - 10:22 AM, said:

I tried an experiment this year.

I picked up the Origins pack and ran the Hunchback-IIC's for a little bit. I also ran my IS Hunchback's.

I figured that they were the same size, geometry, etc, so it would be a decent comparison.

The Deathwish is superior to the Grid Iron. Hands down. Depressingly so.

Other than that, I can do decently in my IS Hunchies as I can in the Clan Hunchies. Clan Hunchies take some getting used to, they are slightly more fragile and run hotter. I can pull around the same damage in these mechs regardless of whether they are Clan or IS, I just have to play slightly different depending on what I'm playing.

It really depends on the drops. Get a good pug (rare occasion) and it doesn't matter what you are dropping in. Play with higher tier players in group, it doesn't matter. You either git good, or die. If people are communicating, calling out targets and setting up good fields of fire the team usually wins.

I also ran the Jenners as a comparison, but since the resize, the Jenner isn't a mech I can run decently.

Grid Iron *now* versus the Death Wish... yeah not much competition... but back when it had it's guass quirks and guass itself was still decent... It was one of the go-to hero mechs...

In a lot of ways, I've felt the sides are fairly balanced in certain circumstances, mostly when it's large groups of comparable players bringing mechs that make sense for their tactics...

What I like is that both sides have outliers that counter the other (i.e. the BLRs and the ONI IIcs) where you *can* surprise you enemy by bringing atypical decks for your faction... but you can't fully supplant the enemy.

To me, this is about the best we can hope for in depth, knowing your your own tech inside and out while learning your enemy's weekenesses.

Edited by MovinTarget, 08 December 2017 - 11:10 AM.

[Wolfways]

Ed Steele, on 07 December 2017 - 11:41 PM, said:

Actually most new players will overheat horribly in Clan Mechs and will only do partial damage with most clan energy weapons because of the long duration. Not to mention that most Clan Mechs have few, or no quirks.

That's my point.
Once you get used to omnimechs you can probably play battlemechs easier.

[SirSoggyDog]

Well I'll say this, I feel that clans have, as a whole superior light mechs due to the abundance of hardpoints and clan XLs. (I'm thinking of the ACH, MLX-G, and the Piranha here.) Mediums are fairly balanced, with the Bushwacker being on the same tier as most any Clanner. I feel clan heavies are vastly superior to their IS counterparts in all but extremely niche roles (In my opinion, Hellby vs Whammer isn't a fair contest, the former generally has so much greater cooling, range, and alpha to make the armor quirks negligible on the Whammer.) I feel assaults are fairly reasonably balanced though.

I don't think this is to say that Clan mechs will enable a newbie to beat a comp player, as I feel no amount of tech can compensate for a significant experience gap, but I do think that it's foolish to ignore the fact that an IS mech in comp play is almost a unicorn.

[Grus]

Wasn't the lowest damage in comp play done in a clan Mech? Just sayin.

[MovinTarget]

Grus, on 20 December 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

Wasn't the lowest damage in comp play done in a clan Mech? Just sayin.

I am pretty sure the reason for that low damage had little to do with the actual mech being piloted... other than most any other IS Heavy/Assault would not have moved fast enough to get to the place he died, by the time he died there...

[NocturnalBeast]

Wolfways, on 08 December 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

That's my point.
Once you get used to omnimechs you can probably play battlemechs easier.

Yes, a good analogy would be that if you curl 50lb dumbbells for months and then switch to 10lb dumbbells, the 10lb dumbbells would seem very light.

[MischiefSC]

Grus, on 20 December 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

Wasn't the lowest damage in comp play done in a clan Mech? Just sayin.

And the highest damage in every single match in all the MWOWC matches up to the finals were clan. If almost all mechs are clan mechs that's sort of inevitable.

[MovinTarget]

MischiefSC, on 20 December 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

And the highest damage in every single match in all the MWOWC matches up to the finals were clan. If almost all mechs are clan mechs that's sort of inevitable.

He was taking a jab at the Executioner fubar...

#12DMGEXE
#NeverForget

Edited by MovinTarget, 20 December 2017 - 02:42 PM.

[MischiefSC]

That guy got a bum rap.

Call it the KCom in me, but nothing wrong with taking a brawler to a long range map. The drop caller failed to get him to the position he needed to go.