330 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Templar Dane, on 10 May 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

3xISLPL vs 2xCLPL = ISLPL wins alpha and duration

Requires +1 ISLPL (aka more tonnage required by IS).

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3xISLL vs 2xCERLL = ISLL wins on alpha and duration

Still more tonnage on the IS side.

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3x ISERLL vs 2x CERLL = ISERLL wins on alpha and duration

Still more tonnage on the IS side. For the record, not many people like CERLL, it's easier to go CERPPCs.

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3x ISLL vs 2x CLPL = ISLL wins on alpha and duration

Range is still a major factor here.


You're pretty much ignoring tonnage+crits+heatsinks in all your math, which pretty much cannot be denied. That doesn't help your argument or the logic being put forth here.

Edited by Deathlike, 10 May 2017 - 12:24 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Templar Dane, on 10 May 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

Engines aren't perfect but dude, could you imagine a battlemaster with it's high mounts BIG FAT ARMS running around with a CXL engine and lasers that have super short durations? Things can be different and equal at the same time.

You mean a Battlemaster that may no longer need quirks to compete (well it would still need at least the range quirk)?

[Deathlike]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 May 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

You mean a Battlemaster that may no longer need quirks to compete (well it would still need at least the range quirk)?

It would require a miracle.

Battlemasters weren't really a thing until quirks last I checked... because they were just large and not hard to shoot at.

In fact, a lot of IS mechs wouldn't be on the comp radar w/o the quirks (some IS mechs that have massive quirks are still not on anyone's radar like Vindicators).

Edited by Deathlike, 10 May 2017 - 12:35 PM.

[Kubernetes]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 May 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

You mean the thing that you are likely to face?

Who? Are you regularly running into 12-mans of EmP? Gauss/ERPPC is a high skill-floor system that a vanishingly small amount of the player population can use effectively. And again, if you are facing a team loaded up with Gauss/ERPPC, your challenge isn't outshooting them so much as getting into a favorable position.

[Monkey Lover]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 May 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

You mean a Battlemaster that may no longer need quirks to compete (well it would still need at least the range quirk)?

I hope it doesn't need them because most of them are gone and for the 2c i run, they're all gone.

The acceleration/deceleration getting transferred over its not happening on this one too as alll blr have the same acc/dec now.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 10 May 2017 - 12:43 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kubernetes, on 10 May 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

Who? Are you regularly running into 12-mans of EmP? Gauss/ERPPC is a high skill-floor system that a vanishingly small amount of the player population can use effectively.

High skill floor or not, balance must be talked about on both ends of the spectrum, and at the top end it is predominantly Clan tech which is kinda my point. I'd say that the average Clan team is winning enough to keep the bar ahead of the IS is also potentially indicative of the fact that given average players Clan tech makes a difference (like normal depends on whether the Clans are also skewed to have the higher average skill level player but for some reason I doubt the skill discrepancy is honestly that bad).

Kubernetes, on 10 May 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

your challenge isn't outshooting them so much as getting into a favorable position.

You literally just described the goal of every drop dec in high end play, the difference is the threshold of mistakes an enemy has to make before the drop dec becomes viable.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 May 2017 - 12:52 PM.

[Templar Dane]

Deathlike, on 10 May 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

Requires +1 ISLPL (aka more tonnage required by IS).



Still more tonnage on the IS side.



Still more tonnage on the IS side. For the record, not many people like CERLL, it's easier to go CERPPCs.



Range is still a major factor here.


You're pretty much ignoring tonnage+crits+heatsinks in all your math, which pretty much cannot be denied. That doesn't help your argument or the logic being put forth here.

Even with the massive benefits, it's bad because it weighs more? What do heat sinks matter if people are trading from cover? It's not like people sit exposed in the middle of a featureless flat landscape and just trade with motionless mechs.

Mechs are constantly vying for a better position, going into and out of cover to fire.....and the mech that puts the most firepower into a single location is the one winning the trades. The mech with the shortest duration. The mech that can fire it's payload and get back into cover while exposing itself the least. At that point X more heat sinks is more of a convenience.

The ISLPL mech is gonna be putting 33 damage onto a location in .67 seconds, the CLPL mech is going to be putting 26 damage into a general area in 1.12 seconds. That's nearly twice the time exposed for nearly the same heat, and twice the time for the target to spread damage. The clan mech more than likely brought other weapons to make up for the firepower difference and the tonnage it saved........but that damage is still going to spread a lot more. So while one might be able to get an 'even' trade on the ragdolls the damage from the IS mech is going to be more focused and use less heat.

And in cased of the battlemaster with it's 5x ISLPL how the hell does one even attempt to do even or superior trades with that? The stalker? Add in some medium lasers and cook? Add in some UACs and spread some more damage around while losing all those precious heat sinks you are going on about?

The answer is to not even play that game at all and just use PPFLD. The meta went from massed ISLL to massed ISLPL, then to clan PPFLD Now I see the IS apologists complaining about PPFLD while having the advantage everywhere else.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 10 May 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

It would require a miracle.

Battlemasters weren't really a thing until quirks last I checked... because they were just large and not hard to shoot at.

Part of it had to with the strength of the Whale which helped elevate the Stalker to its replacement for the select maps where high mounts mattered more. The fall of the Whale allowed faster assaults like the Battlemaster and Banshee to become serious threats to the Stalker and its status.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Templar Dane, on 10 May 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

Even with the massive benefits, it's bad because it weighs more?

Heavier things should translate to more power, so 21 tons of weapons being better than 12 tons worth of weapons is generally expected (of course you have to be careful with that since extra DHS or other equipment taxes should be factored in).

Templar Dane, on 10 May 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

What do heat sinks matter if people are trading from cover?

Because engagements are never static especially at mid-range?

Templar Dane, on 10 May 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

And in cased of the battlemaster with it's 5x ISLPL how the hell does one even attempt to do even or superior trades with that?

Marauder IIC can trade against it, 6 ERML/2 LPL gives you more speed, better tanking (because it spreads damage better, even the arms), better DPS, better alphas. The only time the Battlemaster is better than the Marauder IIC in the typical mid-range engagement is if you are able to abuse your high mounts the entire time, which is sort of rare for mid-range.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 May 2017 - 01:02 PM.

[Deathlike]

Templar Dane, on 10 May 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

Even with the massive benefits, it's bad because it weighs more? What do heat sinks matter if people are trading from cover? It's not like people sit exposed in the middle of a featureless flat landscape and just trade with motionless mechs.

The overall tonnage comparison is a huge factor. 5 tons can be 5 DHS, or engine upgrades or ammo... or some combination. Burst damage is different from sustained DPS, and these things in combination do matter. It certainly depends on the build.

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Mechs are constantly vying for a better position, going into and out of cover to fire.....and the mech that puts the most firepower into a single location is the one winning the trades. The mech with the shortest duration. The mech that can fire it's payload and get back into cover while exposing itself the least. At that point X more heat sinks is more of a convenience.

You can be winning trades but still lose because of poor focus fire and not finishing off targets.

Having enough heatsinks is important... especially if you want/need to push (not all "trades" are equal).

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The ISLPL mech is gonna be putting 33 damage onto a location in .67 seconds, the CLPL mech is going to be putting 26 damage into a general area in 1.12 seconds. That's nearly twice the time exposed for nearly the same heat, and twice the time for the target to spread damage. The clan mech more than likely brought other weapons to make up for the firepower difference and the tonnage it saved........but that damage is still going to spread a lot more. So while one might be able to get an 'even' trade on the ragdolls the damage from the IS mech is going to be more focused and use less heat.

It's called distance... if you're not using it, you're losing the trade (CLPL has a better optimal range, so use it unless you prefer to derp).

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And in cased of the battlemaster with it's 5x ISLPL how the hell does one even attempt to do even or superior trades with that? The stalker? Add in some medium lasers and cook? Add in some UACs and spread some more damage around while losing all those precious heat sinks you are going on about?

It's called pushing on them. It's not like they can sustain that firepower for that long. If you don't know how to do that, that's on you.

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The answer is to not even play that game at all and just use PPFLD. The meta went from massed ISLL to massed ISLPL, then to clan PPFLD Now I see the IS apologists complaining about PPFLD while having the advantage everywhere else.

Because, the IS version of PPFLD is inferior under most instances... even if you go straight PPC+Gauss, the tonnage losses there (like 3 tons saved on Clan Gauss is something) starts to add up. Splash damage from CERPPCs is still damage that the IS ERPPC does not have.


It's pretty much whether you realize counterplay is a factor or not available.

[Templar Dane]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 May 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

Marauder IIC can trade against it, 6 ERML/2 LPL gives you more speed, better tanking (because it spreads damage better, even the arms), better DPS, better alphas. The only time the Battlemaster is better than the Marauder IIC in the typical mid-range engagement is if you are able to abuse your high mounts the entire time, which is sort of rare for mid-range.

Ah so any and all complaints about the night gyr having high mounts is moot.

[Deathlike]

Templar Dane, on 10 May 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

Ah so any and all complaints about the night gyr having high mounts is moot.

That's not how discussions work.

Night Gyrs are pretty much good at PPC+Gauss or Dakka. Great on Terra Therma due to its "environmental heat" quirk.

High mounts are still a thing.

Marauder(IIC) has a lot of durability due to shape, not necessarily as good on the mounts. Different mechs for different purposes.

Edited by Deathlike, 10 May 2017 - 01:23 PM.

[Templar Dane]

Deathlike, on 10 May 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

That's not how discussions work.

From what I'm seeing, a discussion = completely ignoring what the other dude said and grabbing onto any possible handhold like a drowning man.

Talk about a popular battery of weapons = look at the base stats individually and ***** that they don't line up perfectly even though one side can fire 3 without penalty vs 2.

Talk about the spreading nature of clan weapons vs the geometry and durability quirks and how they compound each other for a deal that isn't bad vs clan XL = blah blah one specific popular mech that is likely only popular because it was recently released for cbills

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Templar Dane, on 10 May 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

Ah so any and all complaints about the night gyr having high mounts is moot.

Night Gyr really doesn't utilize high mounts and has its own issues (convergence isn't the best on it). That said, terrain dictates the importance of high mounts and that still doesn't mean that mounts suddenly don't matter, it just means some the difference between something like mid-level mounts (NGR, WHK, AWS, TBR, etc) and high mounts (KDK-3 ballistics, BLR, BNC, HBK-IIC) don't matter quite as much anymore but gorilla mounts (AS7, CTF, TBT) will potentially still have issues because of terrain is still uneven enough that you might clip terrain.

Nowhere did I say, HIGH MOUNTS DON'T MATTER, END OF DISCUSSION, what I said was for mid-range engagements, terrain that allows you to abuse the superior mounts is generally harder to find consistently so not having high mounts matters less in the case of the Marauder IIC because of all the other advantages it offers (which outweigh the lower mounts, again, because in mid-range engagements, they mean less). Keep in mind this is part of the reason the BK was ever even part of the meta, because mounts don't mean quite as much at mid range especially when playing aggressive.

So to use your own words against you:

Templar Dane, on 10 May 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

From what I'm seeing, a discussion = completely ignoring what the other dude said and grabbing onto any possible handhold like a drowning man.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 May 2017 - 01:51 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Templar Dane, on 10 May 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

3xISLPL vs 2xCLPL = ISLPL wins alpha and duration

3xISLL vs 2xCERLL = ISLL wins on alpha and duration

3x ISERLL vs 2x CERLL = ISERLL wins on alpha and duration

3x ISLL vs 2x CLPL = ISLL wins on alpha and duration

You can't compare them weapon for weapon when they can fire 3 without ghost heat vs 2. Who cares if there's a tonnage imbalance if you win every single trade. "having similar damage/tick" equals squat when you get 50% more weapon before ghost heat.

All that and I say laser balance is FINE. You are trying to twist the numbers by looking at the invidual weapon stats, which would make sense if it wasn't for ghost heat.

Engines aren't perfect but dude, could you imagine a battlemaster with it's high mounts BIG FAT ARMS running around with a CXL engine and lasers that have super short durations? Things can be different and equal at the same time.

You are ignoring very important factors
Let's go ahead and make a table



The heavy end of the isLPL+isML, does at lesser range, compete well enough
For an additional 8 tons

Heat input is also lesser, but a fair bit less range for full effective damage
Range is what sets them apart, mostly.
The Clam robot having nearly twice the effective high-LOLpha range (LPLs being almost equal, isMLs being bad VS ERMLs)



Weapons, at the high end, have always been a lesser issue than the other equipment
The bonus tonnage from Ferro, or lesser size of Endo
The XL being smaller and superior

The extra range and damage are nice, no doubt, but it's the combination of everything a little bit better which shifts things.
Prior to Clam Battlemechs, the Sphere had better mounts
Crow had 2 decent mounts, but still Hunches
No Assault had any
Timby was also nothing high (until the A, but that extends hitboxes)
Meds, not until the H2C
Lights...well, Adder? Purifier technically, but no.

[Templar Dane]

Mcgral18, on 10 May 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

You are ignoring very important factors
Let's go ahead and make a table



The heavy end of the isLPL+isML, does at lesser range, compete well enough
For an additional 8 tons

Heat input is also lesser, but a fair bit less range for full effective damage
Range is what sets them apart, mostly.
The Clam robot having nearly twice the effective high-LOLpha range (LPLs being almost equal, isMLs being bad VS ERMLs)



Weapons, at the high end, have always been a lesser issue than the other equipment
The bonus tonnage from Ferro, or lesser size of Endo
The XL being smaller and superior

The extra range and damage are nice, no doubt, but it's the combination of everything a little bit better which shifts things.
Prior to Clam Battlemechs, the Sphere had better mounts
Crow had 2 decent mounts, but still Hunches
No Assault had any
Timby was also nothing high (until the A, but that extends hitboxes)
Meds, not until the H2C
Lights...well, Adder? Purifier technically, but no.

3x ISLPL is easily doable on a 50 ton mech. It is the main punch on most of your midrange and down IS mechs. Your example is masking the effectiveness of the ISLPLs with ISML. You're also carrying more heat sinks than is normal/possible on both if they are supposed to be heavies.

Now, say it's a 5x ISLPL battlemaster or pretty much anything equipped with 3+ ISLPL. Why is that mech going to bother firing the medium lasers? Poke with LPL, done....exposed half as long as the clan mech while doing more pinpoint damage.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Templar Dane, on 10 May 2017 - 03:08 PM, said:

3x ISLPL is easily doable on a 50 ton mech.

The irony behind this being that the Clan 50 tonners are HANDS DOWN (HMN/NVA/HBK-IIC top performers for mediums in general) better than any of the IS 50 tonners outside some niche performances in specific drops (TBT-5J in drop 1 of MRBC for the sole overwatch mech).

Templar Dane, on 10 May 2017 - 03:08 PM, said:

Now, say it's a 5x ISLPL battlemaster or pretty much anything equipped with 3+ ISLPL. Why is that mech going to bother firing the medium lasers? Poke with LPL, done

The same reason you don't just poke with 2 Gauss on the KDK-3, because if you don't threaten with all of your firepower, you aren't going to be able to keep the enemy from taking superior ground when they use ALL of their firepower. Don't get me wrong, there are a few bracket builds that work fairly well (2 LPL/6 SPL HBK-IIC-A for example) but LPL/ML mixtures are not best played that way.

It isn't JUST about winning trades, it is about keeping them from pushing into a superior position to where you can no longer win trades with just 3 LPL. There was a day where DPS oriented builds like that could pull some things off (3 LPL QKD-4G used to be a serious threat) but you still need to have a decent punch otherwise you risk making too many pokes (especially if you are poking from the same area).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 May 2017 - 03:16 PM.

[Templar Dane]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 May 2017 - 03:13 PM, said:

The irony behind this being that the Clan 50 tonners are HANDS DOWN (HMN/NVA/HBK-IIC top performers for mediums in general) better than any of the IS 50 tonners outside some niche performances in specific drops (TBT-5J in drop 1 of MRBC for the sole overwatch mech).


The same reason you don't just poke with 2 Gauss on the KDK-3, because if you don't threaten with all of your firepower, you aren't going to be able to keep the enemy from taking superior ground when they use ALL of their firepower. Don't get me wrong, there are a few bracket builds that work fairly well (2 LPL/6 SPL HBK-IIC-A for example) but LPL/ML mixtures are not best played that way.

It isn't JUST about winning trades, it is about keeping them from pushing into a superior position to where you can no longer win trades with just 3 LPL. There was a day where DPS oriented builds like that could pull some things off (3 LPL QKD-4G used to be a serious threat) but you still need to have a decent punch otherwise you risk making too many pokes (especially if you are poking from the same area).

Those clan medium 'top performers' are both doing poptart builds. Either one of them in a brawl will flat out lose to an equivalent IS brawling medium. They are performing well because they snipe with those PPCs instead of getting ravaged in the <400m range.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Templar Dane, on 10 May 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

Those clan medium 'top performers' are both doing poptart builds.

They aren't just doing poptart builds, now you are just showing your ignorance.

Some top builds:

• HBK-IIC (4 UAC2) - Dakka suppression
  
• HBK-IIC (LBX40) - Great for MRBC drop 1
  
• HBK-IIC-A (2 ERPPC, poptart)
  
• HBK-IIC-A (2 LPL/6 SPL) - Great push support
  
• HBK-IIC-A (2 LPL/2-5 ERML)
  
• HMN (2 LPL/4-6 SPL) - Great for avoiding duplicates in MRBC
  
• HMN (2 LPL/2-5 ERML)- Great for avoiding duplicates in MRBC
  
• HMN (2 ERPPC, poptart)
  
• HMN (2 UAC5, ERPPC, poptart/dakka push)
  
• HMN (5-6 ASRM6)
  
• HMN (4 ASRM6, 4 SPL/Flamer)
  
• HMN (Streaks) - This is the standard streakboat these days, JJs makes it better than the SCrow
  
• NVA (10 SPL) - King Brawler right here
  
• NVA (2 ERPPC, poptart, but the lowest on the totem pole of the three)
  
• NVA (6 ERML, 5 SPL) - Basically a shorter ranged version of the bracket build Hunchie

Templar Dane, on 10 May 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

Either one of them in a brawl will flat out lose to an equivalent IS brawling medium.

Again, this is ignorance of the meta shift that we recently saw after the SRM4 nerf (not really sure if it just sparked people to try things again or whether this was the direct cause) but cSPL boats are king of the brawl currently. There is a reason you are seeing these more and more in both the Star League (where it is the GO TO brawling medium) and in MRBC season 9.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 May 2017 - 04:17 PM.

[Deathlike]

Templar Dane, on 10 May 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

Those clan medium 'top performers' are both doing poptart builds. Either one of them in a brawl will flat out lose to an equivalent IS brawling medium. They are performing well because they snipe with those PPCs instead of getting ravaged in the <400m range.

Huntsman and Nova have the option to do brawl builds (Nova with SPL, Huntsman with SRM) that are far and away a lot more detrimental/dominant.

If you don't expand your understanding of mech and their builds, you'll be stuck by limitations... which become readily apparent on IS mechs.

Edited by Deathlike, 10 May 2017 - 04:14 PM.