128 replies to this topic

[Vellron2005]

So far, If I'm running a hot build, I just take BOTH.

There's more than enough skills.. and it's always a choice between being a "Glass cannon" and a "Tank with a BB gun"..

[Anjian]

Basically what I do, is that I prioritize two things first.

For a laser build --
Improved Gyros
Laser Duration

I would run through as much Cool Run and Heat Containment nodes while getting to all the Improved Gyros. Then, I would run through all the Heat Gen nodes that are on the way to the Laser Duration nodes.

For a build with medium lasers or pulses.
Same as above but I would also try to run as much range nodes as well.

For a build based on PPCs
Get as much Cool Run and Heat Containment nodes on the way to Improved Gyros
Get as much Heat Gen nodes on the way to getting all the Velocity nodes

For a mixed build with ballistics and lasers
Get as much Cool Run and Heat Containment nodes on the way to Improved Gyros
Get as much Heat Gen nodes on the way to getting as much Cool Down, Ammunition Capacity and Velocity nodes (or Gauss cool down or LBX spread).

[Scyther]

@Chris Lowrey:

Actually, fairly extensive testing done in this guide: https://steamcommuni...s/?id=686548357 says that as of mid-2016, Heat Containment only applied to the 30 Base Heat Capacity of a mech.

Thus the 15% bonus from Heat Containment in operations would only add a net 4.5 heat capacity to a mech.

I hope to figure out an accurate way to test this myself, in the meantime this would seem to conflict with your comment that it applies to Base Mech + Heat Sinks.

[Baron Zen]

Depend, if one mech need a lot of heat management like a firestarter with 8 medium lasers, both are needed and even aren't sufficient if it is firestarter A, but enough for firestarter S which add another 10% of heat reduction. Then could depend if you use balistic or not, example a sleipnir using 2 gauss and 2 er large lssers is good with only the points racked on the way to maximise range in firepower tree. For some alpha build 10% heat reduction, 6% hs efficency and 12% capacity are enough like for my atlas or hunckback sp.

Edited by Baron Zen, 19 May 2017 - 04:50 AM.

[Palfatreos]

Chris Lowrey, on 17 May 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

Don't want to get in the way of the discussion, but just want to poke in and say that Heat Containment factors in the total heat threshold of the 'Mech (Base + Value gained through your heatsinks,) and cool run factors in your total heat sink efficiency.

Hope that clears it up. Debate away.

idk about cool run but i disagree about that heat contaiment factors heatsink instead it onyl factors the 30 base mech heat capacity.
Source: https://steamcommuni...s/?id=686548357

personal testing
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__5755105
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__5755738

[Lily from animove]

Viktor Drake, on 17 May 2017 - 11:35 AM, said:

They both do the same thing, the reduce the heat caused by weapons being fired so I don't think one is better than the other. The real question however is the value of the nodes you have to buy to get these skills.

Getting -10% to heat generation in weapons is going to require a huge investment in that tree. Getting -10% to Cool Run is going to require a huge investment in Mech Operations.

An investment in weapons means you need something like 24 points in Weapons to get the -10% heat generation and your only getting like 5% to weapons range and a few very minor buffs to a scattering of weapon types. On the contrast, Mech Operations will give you things like the +15% to heat containment, -35% to quick ignition, Hill Climb bonuses, Improved gyro to reduce shake by over 50%, all for about 21 points invested. Overall if your goal is to reduce heat, I think you got a bit more bang for the buck out of going with Mech Operations.

I tend to disagree,

their effect is not the same, one reduces the weapons generated heat, and the other increases the heat dissipation. Their effect therefore differs a lot between how and which wepaons you use, and also how many heatsinks you have. It also differs if you play a high strike and cooldown mech or a generally cool running mech.

Edited by Lily from animove, 23 May 2017 - 04:30 AM.

[Colonel Presumptuous]

Heres my Nova-Prime with 12 medium lasers, I take all the heat gen nodes resulting in a reduction of -1.23 (there's a -5% bonus to the chassis for medium erlaser heat) heat per laser making the normal 6 heat for medium lasers now down to 4.73.

Now the normal heat value of firing all those lasers is 6x12 ie 72. With the chassis quirk and the heat gen skill nodes the value of 4.73 heat means firing each arm one after the other ie all 12 lasers without taking ghost heat becomes 56.76 a reduction of 15.24 heat, or to my mind 3 reduced heat medium lasers worth of armaments becomes free... ie i have 12 medium erlasers but the heat generated is now only the equivalent of 9 thanks to heat savings compared to before.

Heat containment gives me a larger over head before overheating, and coolrunning lets me pull back from that overhead faster upping my potential DPS. I can actually fire 3 arms worth of medium lasers with my Nova Prime now (ie 18 lasers fired in total) before i get too close to the over heat threshold with just enough left to be able to chain fire 3-4 lasers more before i shutdown. This was impossible before, one arm with 6 medium lasers basically went to around 60% of my total heat and firing the other arm after was instant overheat.

Basically all im saying is... I take both, heck my Nova Prime has 90% of the survival tree, 90% of the Operations tree (i leave the last 2 coolrunnings and the nodes required to get them) and i have all of the laser helping weapon nodes besides 3 laser duration nodes and the velocity nodes... Who cares which is better, just take as many of both! huzzah.

Anything with large numbers of lasers or lots of high heat weaponry should take Heat Gen as much as they can since the larger the total heat the better those 'small' reductions become.... 6 small pulse lasers... I wouldnt bother to much take the ones you have to but go more for operations, 4 ERLL's yeah take as many as you can.

Edited by Colonel Presumptuous, 24 May 2017 - 06:19 PM.

[PyckenZot]

Doesn't it also depend on the amount of heatsinks you mount? X% dissipation on 10 HS < X% on 20 HS.

[Widowmaker1981]

Needs testing, but intuitively i would imagine that the answer varies depending on how many heatsinks you have equipped - more DHS means a % boost to dissipation has more effect, but the heat gen skill doesnt care how many sinks you have, just what weapons you are firing.

[Lily from animove]

Viktor Drake, on 17 May 2017 - 11:35 AM, said:

They both do the same thing, the reduce the heat caused by weapons being fired so I don't think one is better than the other. The real question however is the value of the nodes you have to buy to get these skills.

Getting -10% to heat generation in weapons is going to require a huge investment in that tree. Getting -10% to Cool Run is going to require a huge investment in Mech Operations.

An investment in weapons means you need something like 24 points in Weapons to get the -10% heat generation and your only getting like 5% to weapons range and a few very minor buffs to a scattering of weapon types. On the contrast, Mech Operations will give you things like the +15% to heat containment, -35% to quick ignition, Hill Climb bonuses, Improved gyro to reduce shake by over 50%, all for about 21 points invested. Overall if your goal is to reduce heat, I think you got a bit more bang for the buck out of going with Mech Operations.

it's actually not the same. Heat gen lowers the fired heat.
Cool run increases dissipation.

The first one for example will allow to fire bigger alphas at once. like having 40 hetatreshold and firing weapons for less than 40 heat. The second one helps dissipating faster.

what behaves similar is heta contiament and heat gen.

however, depending on your mech configuation one may be more efficient than the other.

a mech with low amount of Heatsinks may profit more form heat gen compared to heat treshold or dissipation as the base treshold and dissipation is very low anyways.

Heat dissipation also helps to cool your mech down aster when going overheating. While heat treshold or heat gen makes you shut down later.

So they definately differ in behavior.

Edited by Lily from animove, 26 July 2017 - 06:07 AM.

[process]

-10.5% weapon heat will always outperform +10% heat dissipation, regardless of the number of heatsinks. These stats would be even if the maximum weapon heat was around -9%.

I suppose there could be additional benefits to heat dissipation for non-weapon things like jumpjets or perhaps ambient heat, but thinking strictly about weapons I almost always avoid the mech ops tree.

Edited by process, 26 July 2017 - 05:40 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

The Answer is it depends.

Cool Run dissipates your heat faster where as Heat Gen reduces the amount of heat you generate each time you fire you weapon. They are not equal and are situational in my opinion.

For example, lets say I am in a light mech trying to run 4 x IS ER ML but only have enough room for 10 DHS on my mechs. What happens is that I fire my 4 ER MLs a couple times which spikes me heat up to Critical levels however once I am at critical levels my heat takes a very long time to come down to usable levels again. This means I tend to have to run off and hide alot which over the course of the match means a lower overall score. Now lets look at how both Cool Run and Heat Gen effects this.

First Heat Gen.

Heat Gen reduces the amount of heat I generate each time I pull the trigger so lets say with a heat gen build I can fire my 4 ER MLs 3 times before reaching Critical heat. Obviously firing 3 times instead of 2 is a boost to performance but your still going to reach critical heat and your still going to have a very slow dissipation rate with only 10 DHS so you fire 3 times and then run and hide for lets say 40 seconds.

Now Cool Run.

Cool run increases the dissipation rate so once your at max heat, your heat bar will go down much faster with Cool Run. The difference here is that you only fire your 4 ER MLs twice before reaching max heat but now you only have to cool down for 20 seconds before being able to start firing again. Again your increasing your damage output but here your boosting your overall rate of fire rather than burst fire capabilities.

So this is why I say it is situational. If you want to be able to fire more often before having to find cover and cool down and don't mind extended pauses between this burst of activity so to speak, then Heat Gen is absolutely the way to go. However if you prefer a more active playstyle where your finding yourself needing to be able to fire as often as possible, your probably better off going with cool run for the faster cooling effect.

[kesmai]

Low heatsink count - heat gen
High heatsink count - cool run

Heat cap is not important , except you want to use extremely high alpha builds.
Usually you do not max out each of the trees so you can take 4 / 5 cool runs and 6-9 heat gens without a problem.

Edited by kesmai, 26 July 2017 - 06:06 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Widowmaker1981, on 26 July 2017 - 04:09 AM, said:

Needs testing, but intuitively i would imagine that the answer varies depending on how many heatsinks you have equipped - more DHS means a % boost to dissipation has more effect, but the heat gen skill doesnt care how many sinks you have, just what weapons you are firing.

This is correct. If you can achieve an acceptable heat dissipation rate just with the current amount of mounted heat sinks, then Heat gen would take priority. Basically hop into the testing grounds before you put skills on your mech. Choose a hot map (I personally use Tormaline) and start firing your weapons. If your heat dissipates at a rate that you feel comfortable with then bypass Cool Run and go for Heat Gen. If it doesn't go down fast enough for you then invest in Cool Run.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

PyckenZot, on 26 July 2017 - 04:04 AM, said:

Doesn't it also depend on the amount of heatsinks you mount? X% dissipation on 10 HS < X% on 20 HS.

No, it doesn't. Heat gen quirks vs dissipation quirks do not care about that or heat load.

kesmai, on 26 July 2017 - 06:05 AM, said:

Low heatsink count - heat gen
High heatsink count - cool run

Viktor Drake, on 26 July 2017 - 06:12 AM, said:

This is correct. If you can achieve an acceptable heat dissipation rate just with the current amount of mounted heat sinks, then Heat gen would take priority.

Again, no, this is false. I did the math early in this thread to support that. I did the math in another thread, but what it boils down to is how much you can invest in either. All that matters is whether you need heat cap or not (for like heavy lasers) if you are fully investing because heat gen nodes will net you more sustained DPS regardless of number of heat sinks or heat load, but heat containment has a bigger bonus than heat gen will give you (remember, heat gen behaves like both cool run and heat containment).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 July 2017 - 07:30 AM.

[panzer1b]

Heat gen and cool run are both ways to increase potential DPS.

Heat gen and heat capacity are both ways to increase the damage you can do before reaching 100% and cooking your internals.

If you have very few heatsinks (pretty much any build with 10-15 or so) you are almost always better off going with heat gen to boost your DPS if you cannot afford both of them, especially so if there is anything else in the weapons tree you want anyways like range, cooldown, ammo capacity, beam dur, ect. Even if you are boating em, if there are any weapon tree skills you deem essential that arent near the top of the tree, getting heat generation along the way will always be a good idea.

If you are a heatsink boat cool run will most likely give a better boost to your raw DPS (and you may as well get some of the heat containment along the way). Also, if there are other skills in the ops tree you actually want, then obviously get as much cool run and heat gen as possible since the point investment if you already want something else near the bottom of that tree is relatively minimal just to add some cool run or heat cont.

Still, i like to get a large number of both skills. Almost all of my mechs that arent gauss boats (and the only mech i can think of that is is one of my mad2c-ds) are more or less bottlenecked by heat, since i have a thing for 60+ alfa strikes, and having all 3 skills on the mech in some quantities is for me a far more valuable investment then say the armor tree (unless your mech is pre-quirked by like alot the armor tree is basically a SP sink). Most of my mechs i give 100% speed tweak (with no extra nodes along the way), 100% radar derp (ecm as well for ecm mechs as its just 2 extra points ontop of what i already need to have), then ~10% cool run and 12% heat containment with as little along the way as possible, and after that i put everything else into weapons and try to get at least 9% heat gen with the mandatory range and ammo skills (if its got any ammo weapons) and possibly beam duration if i can afford to run a little bit hotter to get em. I completely ignore the JJ tree as none of my mechs have more then 1 JJ unless its locked, and skills are completely pointless for 1 JJ and also overkill and not needed it its a clan omni with 6 or so locked ones. The armor tree i also ignore, id rather kill someone faster by taking heat gen and other nodes that increase my effective DPS then take 1 more alfa strike to go down, afterall, the best way to increase your survivability is to make the source of the damage go poof by like killing it faster. Aux i like to go for light mechs and a few ECM mediums just so i get those OP 300+ dmg ac-130 strikes, but otherwise i dont bother as i use airstrikes so rarely in heavys or assaults that its not worth loosing out of DPS, although i do occasionally use the 2nd consumable slot just so i have airstrike and uav for utility. This is ofc for my fairly competitive builds like 60+ alfa laser vomit, gauss vomit, uac vomit, ect. Many of my more specialized and derpy builds i will adjust as needed.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

panzer1b, on 26 July 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

If you have very few heatsinks (pretty much any build with 10-15 or so) you are almost always better off going with heat gen to boost your DPS if you cannot afford both of them

Number of heat sinks is irrelevant to the DPS boost, please stop spreading this misinformation.

Here is the math I did for another thread just like this:

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 May 2017 - 10:42 AM, said:

No, they really aren't.

Here's some simple math to prove it:
For a mech with 50% heat efficiency, we get the following:

• 4% Heat gen = 2 dissipation and 3.84 (4 originally) heat generated which translates to 52.08333% heat efficiency
  
• 6% Cool run = 2.12 dissipation (2 originally) and 4 heat generated which translates to 53% heat efficiency
  
• ~1.76% improvement of cool run over heat gen quirks

For a mech with 50% heat efficiency and different dissipation rates, we get the following:

• 4% Heat gen = 4 dissipation and 7.68 (8 originally) heat generated which translates to 52.08333% heat efficiency
  
• 6% Cool run = 4.24 dissipation (4 originally) and 8 heat generated which translates to 53% heat efficiency
  
• ~1.76% improvement of cool run over heat gen quirks

For a mech with 33% heat efficiency, we get the following:

• 4% Heat gen = 2 dissipation and 5.76 (6 originally) heat generated which translates to 34.7222% heat efficiency
  
• 6% Cool run = 2.12 dissipation (2 originally) and 6 heat generated which translates to 35.333% heat efficiency
  
• ~1.76% improvement of cool run over heat gen quirks

The advantages of cool run over heat gen are ambivalent to the heat load (and vice versa, the advantages are ambivalent to how many DHS you run).

All that matters is which nodes are easier to get or suit your build more.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 July 2017 - 09:32 AM.

[r4plez]

kesmai, on 26 July 2017 - 06:05 AM, said:

Low heatsink count - heat gen
High heatsink count - cool run

Heat cap is not important , except you want to use extremely high alpha builds.
Usually you do not max out each of the trees so you can take 4 / 5 cool runs and 6-9 heat gens without a problem.

This is false and always been, dont know who spread it on this forum..

[MischiefSC]

Honestly I've quit worrying so much. As a given rule if I'm under 1.2 heat efficiency I pick up heat gen and ops. If I'm cooler running then I just do firepower/heat gen and put 20 more pts in survival.

Survival is critical but the ability to apply your firepower consistently enough to kill the enemy is usually more so. Shoot first/shoot more > take 2 extra MLs worth of damage total over the match.

[HGAK47]

Cool run has the added benefit of improving stealth armour in a way, if you run that at all. I have found without max coolrun the engine can generate a bit of heat alone while in stealth. (Not that I really rate stealth armour all that much... just saying)