284 replies to this topic

[Carl Vickers]

Slide, I have a lot of respect for you but a match maker on FW will not fix the issues.

Ive been playing this game for a fair while, started out the same way the newbies do now. I got my butt handed too me sooo many times that it burned me to get better. I remember one particular loss to 228 back in CW when it was called that back in the day. It was on Boreal Vault and I was a solo player.

I was clan at the time and 228s came in and every mech they had was armed with ER Larges and they absolutely shellacked us, 48-5. Since then I have gone through various units, CWI, EPSI, EK and now AWOL. It wasnt until EK that I really started to learn how to play properly. Proper builds, not the lurm builds I found easy to use, lazor vomit at first but then ballistics and lazors. Then learned how to play as part of a team, then learned to drop command. This happened cause of the environment within EK that taught me how to play the game properly.

I worked damn hard to become the player I am now and am still learning new stuff all the time from the unit Im in and players outside the unit, Evil, 54MR, KCOM ect

This is the same for pretty much all the vets who still play the game and were in the same position to begin with, hence why our attitude is what it is. We worked hard and continue to work hard to maintain what we can do.

As another example, HHoD, they have been the whipping boys of Davion for sooo long, they have improved so much recently every time I see them I know we have a good fight on our hands and all that is because they have worked hard and gotten better, stopped bringing all lurm drops, using good builds, could use a little work on tactics but I have every faith they will start doing that soon and then look out, they are a juggernaut waiting to happen.

All of this is done by wanting to get better and putting the effort in, not due to being shielded by a match maker.

Edited by Carl Vickers, 29 May 2017 - 03:42 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Carl Vickers, on 29 May 2017 - 03:42 AM, said:

As another example, HHoD, they have been the whipping boys of Davion for sooo long, they have improved so much recently every time I see them I know we have a good fight on our hands and all that is because they have worked hard and gotten better, stopped bringing all lurm drops, using good builds, could use a little work on tactics but I have every faith they will start doing that soon and then look out, they are a juggernaut waiting to happen.

All of this is done by wanting to get better and putting the effort in, not due to being shielded by a match maker.

When they take on new members, they have a very good training program, so that everyone is on the same page - reading from the same book so to speak. The experienced train/teach the new. Eventually a time comes when they put the training into action. New pilots bring new idea's. New idea's bring new tactics. New idea's and tactics have to be tested and perfected. They go bad and they go good, all part of the process. A process that is both rewarding and frustrating at the same time.

That is a wonderful community to be part of, one I wish every person could experience. If there was more of that then I honestly and fully believe that MWO would be better as a whole.

[Carl Vickers]

TWIAFU, on 29 May 2017 - 04:22 AM, said:

When they take on new members, they have a very good training program, so that everyone is on the same page - reading from the same book so to speak. The experienced train/teach the new. Eventually a time comes when they put the training into action. New pilots bring new idea's. New idea's bring new tactics. New idea's and tactics have to be tested and perfected. They go bad and they go good, all part of the process. A process that is both rewarding and frustrating at the same time.

That is a wonderful community to be part of, one I wish every person could experience. If there was more of that then I honestly and fully believe that MWO would be better as a whole.

It is pretty much the same in almost every unit I have been in, some now dont exist, some have taken new forms and some have stayed the same due to management being stuck in the past.

Its the community that makes the units and those that think they can do it all solo can stay in QP and tier 5 as far as im concerned.

[TWIAFU]

Carl Vickers, on 29 May 2017 - 04:32 AM, said:

It is pretty much the same in almost every unit I have been in, some now dont exist, some have taken new forms and some have stayed the same due to management being stuck in the past.

Its the community that makes the units and those that think they can do it all solo can stay in QP and tier 5 as far as im concerned.

Preach on brother!

#respect

[DarklightCA]

slide, on 28 May 2017 - 09:42 PM, said:

Which is a nice way of saying "Git Gud"

No amount of saying, do this, get that build, join TS, join a unit etc is ever going to change the fact that there will ALWAYS be a skill gap, whether it be someone like me whose skills leveled out 3 years ago at decidedly mid tier level, to someone who started the game yesterday, to someone with natural ability to play anything at a high level.

Feeding seals to sharks is a bad idea no matter what the game is, for the simple reason the seals just stop playing and there isn't enough sharks to sustain the game. Every game in the history of games (computer and RL) has had some sort of ranking system. Why is that? To give everyone a fair chance to a)play and b)get better and advance through the ranks.

If you plucked some 10 year old kid out of class and told him to go up against Usain Bolt over 100m, what would the result be? Repeat this experiment 10 times with 10 different kids. Out of that you will get 1 that wants to be like Bolt, you'll get 2 that maybe keep running in a different event (like marathon). 2 will change sports all together and the other 5 will never go near running shoes again.

That is exactly what happens when a group of 12 pugs gets stomped by a team. Especially 12 new pugs. For every 1 you get who will follow the advice of those who know better you get 11 who quit. Those few that try aren't enough to keep the mode alive.

"Git Gud" isn't the answer.
Solo Queue may or may not be the Answer.
If MM isn't an answer then what is.

Because sure as **** stinks, what we have now is not an answer.

Nobody is feeding seals to sharks. The seals are feeding themselves to sharks. Literally, when you entered Faction Play for the first time a literal warning message popups stating exactly what Faction Play is and the seals decide to play it anyways.
Faction Play is a game mode designed around Units grouping up to conquer planets. No matchmaker, just groups without any limitations fighting for control.

Why take a game mode heavily designed around grouping and think it's perfectly fine to solo queue? or for that matter take a game mode heavily designed around grouping, put in solo droppers and blame the groups or "sharks" for playing it like it was meant to be played.

You are correct that there will always be a skill gap, however there is also skill gaps between the different groups that you see in drops. The difference between the groups with minimal skill and your average everyday solo player is that those groups are coordinating better than your pug lottery team will likely be capable of.

The REAL gap is players ability to group up with other players and work together or as people like to call it, teamwork. If a person decides they want to play Faction Play, bring wacky builds, drop solo, put themselves in that huge disadvantage than that is THEIR choice. If they want to ignore the welcome message, the reality of the game mode and drop anyways that is THEIR choice.

Had this game mode had the population to support a split queue I would be all for it because I wouldn't care less about anybody that did not want to put any effort into winning their games. However that's not really a option at this point and either Faction Play remains the shark tank that it is, or PGI creates a god awful version of Quick Play just so all the solo players can get easy LP rewards without having to fight all the scary sharks.

[Dead Tom Kerensky]

The way the FP queue works it will match group v groups first then randoms. We already have as much group v group and random v random play as the population allows. The ideal would be we have hundreds of thousands of players and they could split the queue into solos and groups and incorporate a matchmaking system. We don't have that so this solution is the best compromise, even QP doesn't have the population for a real matchmaking system. If you are playing against a group as randoms then its because otherwise you would not be playing at all.

I first started CW a couple years ago. I wanted a mode that featured more coordination than QP. I dropped once as a complete random and didn't like what I saw. So I looked at the forums and found the FRR hub. As soon as I joined and entered the looking for group channel I got invited to join some people on drops. I learned how to position and push properly. What channels of the map to use and how to conga line down to kill turrets and open gates properly.

As I played more and more I found a group that played in my timezone, whose personalities I worked with and enjoyed. They invited me into the fold and I joined 2323. I can say that if there was a solo group queue I would have played in the solo one. I would have not found the coordination I was looking for. Not joined in a unit and I certainly wouldn't be playing MWO today.

This is my experience in MWO, it is because of the design choices as well as my own determination to find something better and follow the simple procedure of joining a TS server. It was not difficult to follow this path. It was not outside the realm of anyone else's abilities. It is just a slight bit of effort and then many hours of good times and improvement. People in this thread have spent 10 times more effort complaining about FP than it took me to join in with a great group of guys.

[Leggin Ho]

Dead Tom Kerensky, on 29 May 2017 - 06:47 AM, said:

The way the FP queue works it will match group v groups first then randoms. We already have as much group v group and random v random play as the population allows. The ideal would be we have hundreds of thousands of players and they could split the queue into solos and groups and incorporate a matchmaking system. We don't have that so this solution is the best compromise, even QP doesn't have the population for a real matchmaking system. If you are playing against a group as randoms then its because otherwise you would not be playing at all.

I first started CW a couple years ago. I wanted a mode that featured more coordination than QP. I dropped once as a complete random and didn't like what I saw. So I looked at the forums and found the FRR hub. As soon as I joined and entered the looking for group channel I got invited to join some people on drops. I learned how to position and push properly. What channels of the map to use and how to conga line down to kill turrets and open gates properly.

As I played more and more I found a group that played in my timezone, whose personalities I worked with and enjoyed. They invited me into the fold and I joined 2323. I can say that if there was a solo group queue I would have played in the solo one. I would have not found the coordination I was looking for. Not joined in a unit and I certainly wouldn't be playing MWO today.

This is my experience in MWO, it is because of the design choices as well as my own determination to find something better and follow the simple procedure of joining a TS server. It was not difficult to follow this path. It was not outside the realm of anyone else's abilities. It is just a slight bit of effort and then many hours of good times and improvement. People in this thread have spent 10 times more effort complaining about FP than it took me to join in with a great group of guys.

Well Said!!!

[KingCobra]

No matter how much you want to justify FP as unit/groups only gitgud garbage or whatever the game mode is dying as is MWO and you cant turn the clock back to when it was working even some what better.PGI needs to rethink what will repopulate this game and FP game mode.

You units/groups and others talk progression but your actually talking leave FP alone let us drive off more new players casuals and pugs from the FP game mode and game itself. Right now solo mm works the wait time is less than a minute and most of the population left in this game plays solo mm battles.

My thoughts on MWO and PGI in general are they do good things then they totally neglect other things that would promote growth of MWO in general like no advertising no marketing campaigns no Social lobby system No progressive way to play FP without countless slaughters of new players and pugs despite the warnings no way for players to get good rewards or mechbays without playing FP and getting slaughtered over and over.

They need to split FP into a progressive path that new players can and will stay with the game and FP game mode then progress into units I suggest

# 1 split the FP queues solo and group/units
#2 put in a social lobby system for units to recruit from and players to get information they need about MWO gameplay and FP
#3 do some advertising on PC game websites and steam for new players
#4 give progressive rewards for new players that complete a FP boot camp.
#5 Have more events for booth groups pugs and units like turkyyed3 in the FP queues.

The facts are we don't know the actual player numbers because we don't have accurate stats every day and month we can see the game declining because of boredom of the older players and the loss of retention of new players.We can set on this forums post away but it matters not unless we can get PGI to respond to what's happing in MWO and FP in some logical way and start down a road of repair or the game modes and the community.

[RottenFoot]

Please bring back old counter-attack siege mode and take out domination mode. That way siege mode maps are in rotation more, maybe for the last 2 grids. This will bring more balance to the amount of same maps being played, which one could very well play in QP.
Invasion can get very monotonous if you the same map 2 or 3 times in a row. The thing that made invasion special was the difference in map type. I do think the new way is better, and having the new game-modes in cycle works well, but domination just dont work in 48v48 and very rarely and only on certain maps does it actually play out to a proper game.

As for splitting of ques...We should see it being implemented as soon as we reach our million-active-players base marker.

[draiocht]

[mod]Several recent posts have been redacted or removed due to
unconstructive or personally argumentative content or references thereof.

Please post politely and constructively to the discussion.
Thank you.[/mod]

Edited by draiocht, 29 May 2017 - 09:16 PM.

[slide]

@ Carl V,
I am not suggesting that MM is the best solution, just A solution. It might fail just as many other suggestions may fail. However what I believe with absolute certainty is that FP will fail as a mode if we continue along the current path. One could argue it already has failed.


@everyone
I understand the value of team work, builds etc. I will group up and play with anyone that will have me and follow orders to the best of my ability. I don't think anyone who has had me on their team would consider me to be a detriment to their team. However I am decidedly a mid level player and as long as my stats for the most part stay >1:1 I am happy with that. I play this game for fun and nothing more.

But this issue isn't about me or anyone who has done the yards to get where they are. It is about getting people into the mode and KEEPING them. This is not happening or only in very rare cases. For every one of you that is prepared to pull their finger out and do what it takes there are 1000 more who quit before they even get an interest and the motivation to do so.

Here is an example of what I am talking about during Tuk3.

ARMD as a unit rarely plays FP, because most of the players simply aren't interested. But to get the unit reward we dropped a few games with 6 or 7 of us. At this stage we had won a couple, lost a couple but the games had been close either way. No drama. Then we dropped attack on Boreal against a 6 man of JGx who had nothing but long range laser vomit. Now with little experience (in FP), mid to short range brawlers (ie LPL and the select deck bug which left me out of my long range deck too) I can tell you it didn't end well. Can't remember exactly but it was something like 48-6 at the end. Now I can shrug this off as I have seen it before, but one of my unit meates was furious. His words were some thing like, "**** this ****, **** PGI, I am cancelling my pre-orders and deleting this **** hole of a game". This BTW was not some green as grass noob. He had been playing this game for at least 4 years and would be what most regard as a whale. If this is his reaction I can't imagine what it's like for some one who is new.

This is the situation that needs fixing, the skill gap, by any means necessary. Because none of the advice any one can give will be heeded if no one is even willing to try the mode in the first place.

Now frankly I am sick of this argument, it is the same stuff rehashed over and over since closed beta. But I will say this. Some of you are as closed minded towards fixing this issue, as you accuse some of the solo players of being about getting better, and that is perhaps something you should think about.

I will not post again on this subject. I am over it and this topic more than any other makes me want to quit playing altogether.

My advice to anyone who want to play this mode.

1. Find someone willing to drop call.
2. Follow the calls.

Any plan is better than no plan.

[Emeraudes]

KingCobra, on 29 May 2017 - 07:12 AM, said:

The facts are we don't know the actual player numbers because we don't have accurate stats every day and month we can see the game declining because of boredom of the older players and the loss of retention of new players.We can set on this forums post away but it matters not unless we can get PGI to respond to what's happing in MWO and FP in some logical way and start down a road of repair or the game modes and the community.

Then why propose anything at all? You've seen PGI react to any kind of feedback in a way that makes sense from a gameplay perspective?(seriously, if you have please let me know the frequency.)

In fact, have PGI even delivered on their game mode promises since the launch?

All this speculation is happening but I honestly don't see anything happening because nothing is being announced to be in the works. Nothing is being announced regarding the energy weapons balance pass that is suppose to hit us June 1st too.

If they can't even tweak numbers to make gameplay feel right, I can't bring myself to expect fundamental fixes like map issues which cause certain modes to fall flat in the first place or even the modes themselves, Much less issues that stem from fundamental problems with the game like a player-rating based match maker or new player retention.

[Xannatharr]

Dead Tom Kerensky, on 29 May 2017 - 06:47 AM, said:

People in this thread have spent 10 times more effort complaining about FP than it took me to join in with a great group of guys.

Thank you - take all my +1s!!

Xann

[Grus]

Carl Vickers, on 29 May 2017 - 04:32 AM, said:

It is pretty much the same in almost every unit I have been in, some now dont exist, some have taken new forms and some have stayed the same due to management being stuck in the past.

Its the community that makes the units and those that think they can do it all solo can stay in QP and tier 5 as far as im concerned.

I find it funny that someone that dosnt like the idea of a MM likes to flaunt his tier 1 tag earned using the same mechanic. But I would like to see a MM put in place for a different FP game mode. "Simulator" stock loadouts and single mech brought to battle for FP. Would need objective based gameplay and MUCH larger maps. That way you have to think tactics rather than just deathball.

[DarklightCA]

Grus, on 30 May 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

I find it funny that someone that dosnt like the idea of a MM likes to flaunt his tier 1 tag earned using the same mechanic. But I would like to see a MM put in place for a different FP game mode. "Simulator" stock loadouts and single mech brought to battle for FP. Would need objective based gameplay and MUCH larger maps. That way you have to think tactics rather than just deathball.

The tier system isn't really a matchmaker, it's really just added to keep the new players out of circulation of the experienced players, it has no basis on skill. Given that new players shouldn't really by entering an environment like Faction Play regardless, what use does Faction Play have for a matchmaker?

Faction Play also doesn't have the population to add a skill based matchmaker. The only such system I would support is now that it's basically Clan vs IS, PGI has the option to prioritize matching groups in queue against each other. If there is a 12 man waiting in queue on one side and another on the other, they should be able to skip the queue and match each other.

I would even support packing 4 man's groups in a queue to fight a 12 man and then using solo players as fillers if there is no other groups in queue that can be stacked on that team to fight the other grouped team. If there is no such group(s) in queue on the other team than they get matched up against whatever pug team is waiting for a drop. Perhaps something like that would make the games more enjoyable is ease the whining of solo players.

[IraqiWalker]

Important: For the purposes of entertainment, and venting, I slapped some gifs into this post. They are inside spoiler fields, to prevent them slowing down page loading. These gifs also help convey how I feel about some of these things better than than words do. Now on with the post.



I'm done at this point. We're dealing with delusional people who demand the impossible, and refuse to acknowledge the real problem.

Refusing to recognize a problem is the reason it will never be solved.

You want to play in a brain dead haze, and still win. Not gonna happen. At this point in time, I have never hated solo play proponents more.

Spoiler

---

At least back in the day they didn't have the tools, so I could empathize with them, and say "yeah, it's not easy". Now, we have Faction Chat, LFG, VoIP, hotkeyed voice commands, and the TS servers are easier to find.

You will get no more sympathy, or pity from me, because you've been handed every tool we've been using since day 1. We all demanded those tools be added, because most of us were thinking of teamwork, and using them to better communicate with our teammates in QP without having to spend 10 minutes typing in a terrible chat client. While you used them as the crutch to hang your failures on.

Now that they're here, you don't use them, are trying to create another crutch, and you want to win against people that are using those tools. I'm sorry, but no handicap in the world will cure this level of idiocy.

Spoiler

---

A solo only FW queue will not be "no units", "no synch drops". That statement is founded in complete ignorance of reality.

Spoiler

You have a small pool of players. There will be synch drops. Unit pilots will be able to queue up solo, and drop in.

Even without them, the good players are still going to farm the hell out of everyone else. Except this time, the bad ones don't have the protection of PSR, to cushion the slaughter.

Spoiler

---

You want to learn the maps? You've got 2 choices:

A- Play the mode (preferably while also listening to your teammates).

B- Go into training grounds.

For those too lazy to do either, there's a third option:

Watch a Youtube video.

I swear, I'm not explaining anything mystical here. This is basic.

Spoiler

---

Anyone who has seen my posts along the years can tell you I've never been this salty. That's because I hold that group of players to be the single worst demographic in this game. They are almost universally the most toxic, and the whiniest.

They shoot themselves in the foot, and then complain about everyone else running faster than them.

Spoiler

---

If you want to play FACTION warfare, then you need to understand that the key word here is FACTION. That is a group of people working together to achieve a common goal. I don't care if you drop alone, or if you drop with a friend, or multiple friends, or if you're in a unit. If you are in that match, and not using the tools provided to you, then you are the only one to blame for your failure, and you deserve no sympathy, or mercy. Only scorn.

It's been literally years of us trying to cater to the rambo morons, and they keep refusing to use every aid they are given. At some point, we have to realize that some are not worth the effort.

[spoiler]

---

Last but not least:

If you think players will learn how to play in groups, against coordinated groups, by letting them play alone without coordination, then I have some property on the moon you might be interested in buying.

---

[Commander A9]

Screw the moon! I got a bridge in Brooklyn!

Thank you! We've been beating our heads against the wall begging people to use the tools available to work together.

I've exhausted myself trying to get people to jump on the Teamspeaks and actually play with the established units. You'd think I was asking people to drink poison, the responses I was getting...

[IraqiWalker]

Commander A9, on 30 May 2017 - 09:36 PM, said:

Screw the moon! I got a bridge in Brooklyn!

Thank you! We've been beating our heads against the wall begging people to use the tools available to work together.

I've exhausted myself trying to get people to jump on the Teamspeaks and actually play with the established units. You'd think I was asking people to drink poison, the responses I was getting...

It boggles my mind.

"Hey guys, you wanna have fun playing this game and win?" Said the hopeful player

"No, you're terribad. I want to win without my team, or teamwork, or the basics of the game" Said the throng of morons.

I can't emphasize this enough:

If you drop solo into FP, please coordinate with your team. I have no problem with someone dropping solo. I do it. Just don't play like a brain dead rambo wannabe moron. Unlike Rambo, you don't have plot armor.

[Commander A9]

I wouldn't say that Faction Warfare has few people playing. Hell, the last Tukayyid had 17,000 unique players drop in.

Sure, you can say most came back for the event, and you'd be correct in some circumstances.

Still, there are drops happening daily. As long as PGI keeps pumping out events though, I'm sure there will still be a population to play.

[Vagosei]

Most of what's killing the will to play faction is the LRM craze right now...LRMS used to be taboo in CW....now its so bad nobody can get a good match in. Very Very SAD....TIER 6 POTATOES...is what I call it....