425 replies to this topic

[Crockdaddy]

sub2000, on 28 May 2017 - 02:47 AM, said:

After reading the forums I have two rather rhetorical questions.
1. It is impossible not to notice that there is aversion against meta. Meta builds (builds optimized around hardpoints and quirks) are as the word "optimized" implies, are easiest to play right. Using them is the best way to learn, but there is aversion against it. Isn't it because of the meta adepts and their way of communicating?
2. Why the population of the FW is that low?
3.Why KCOM are so against splitting queues?
They claim that they don't like to slaughter skittles (should I write cattle?) , do they?
Claim about small population is bogus.
They like extremely buggy and troian friendly TS. Who forbids them to organize time and do "synchro-drops against good IS unites. After all it is part of the team experience. Isn't it?
I was doing that regularly more than 10 years ago. I don't believe now they have less communication possibilities to do that.

Another very important question to the MWO staff.
What percentage of the people stopping playing MWO have left after their short experience with FW. I know that if I wouldn't be lucky to get some first 10 FW games in small groups and experience good DC, I would leave MWO entirely. I know people who did exactly that.
This is personal experience so I am curious how general it is.
I would think shielding FW by entrance requirements or splitting queues is paramount not for the mode, but for the existence of the MWO as a whole. Again look for the experience in other games evolution. Unreal tournament is perfect example.
Why counterStrike is alive while technologically stronger quake and UT lines died?

Why ... oh nevermind. Not worth it.

[metallio]

Cato Zilks, on 30 May 2017 - 11:38 AM, said:

I don't need to read up on what they did. I was there. My unit was slow to rejoin so I had tried going solo, could not get matches, and I made a one person unit until my unit joined back up.

I understand how solo cue /= group cue. Unlike you two rejects, I can also see Russ' point that to achieve what you want they needed to have a more solid division line in FW. So yes, what you saw in Spring 2016 was the divided cue. That is what the divided cues looks like. It was, is, and always will be, a bad idea. If we had a larger population maybe we could have a matchmaker. But we don't so grow up.

...you were there, and you "understand"...but you're still saying it wasn't that way? da ***?

I guess I really can't communicate with neanderthals...need to get the translator checked out.

[metallio]

SuperFunkTron, on 30 May 2017 - 12:06 PM, said:

We all agree that there inexperienced players are the key detriment and lack of preparation or familiarity are the major issue\

I really don't. The primary factor in success in FP is coordination, and the massive failures for new players are their lack of coordination. They aren't in groups, they don't even survive long enough to learn something, and they quit. They come back in a few months, see the same thing, and leave FP for good.

Separate queue's for group and solo and your average newbie gets to fight uncoordinated hacks pugging their way to success and learns the basics while getting stomped in a much more pleasant manner...and they live long enough to learn a thing or two about it.

Combine it with a window that contains server information for teamspeak or whatever and a set of links to the major and/or recruiting units along with a short discussion about "get with a group to see the real thing" and people will click on it and begin the process of learning more competitive play.

Or just let them keep dying in seconds after contact with the enemy because they're that clueless. I'm sure the current state of affairs has nothing to do with that.

[SuperFunkTron]

metallio, on 30 May 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

I really don't. The primary factor in success in FP is coordination, and the massive failures for new players are their lack of coordination. They aren't in groups, they don't even survive long enough to learn something, and they quit. They come back in a few months, see the same thing, and leave FP for good.

Maybe something wasn't correctly expressed on my end but lack of coordination in FP is a part of lack of preparation and familiarity with what it takes to win in FP. I just chose a broader term because new players typically have more than coordination to work on.

Having them learn through getting "group formation", "protected light/medium" and other rewards for coordinated play is a good way to help them find some of these mechanics before they even get to FP to be stomped and develop a distaste for FP.

Further, we can't really determine if solo players will cooperate or not. I've come across many players who do coordinate in PUG drops and beat large, organized groups. What would stop a few guys from timing their drops and coordinating their play in a solo queue?

The ideal is to get players with similar skill and coordination to group together rather than just assuming all PUGs maintain a fierce disdain for coordination so a solution that attempts to determine average player skill level would be more effective in balancing games. Either giving players something like a Battle Value rating based on their regular performance or some other tier system (preferably one more involved and improve than the current) would be a good way to stack similar player/team values against each other with larger disparities facing off only when players are lacking.

[metallio]

SuperFunkTron, on 30 May 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

What would stop a few guys from timing their drops and coordinating their play in a solo queue?

The ideal is to get players with similar skill and coordination to group together rather than just assuming all PUGs maintain a fierce disdain for coordination so a solution that attempts to determine average player skill level would be more effective in balancing games.

Why would it matter if a few guys managed to sync drop? It's never been a significant problem in the entire history of the game even though it's talked about plenty. If they managed it and I occasionally ran into that on a solo drop it would be a surprise and over quickly and I'd play the next round without worrying about it.

...I actually agree with your assessment if I were to assume that there was any fix whatsoever for PuG coordination. I do assume that it's unfixable. I don't see any reason to alter that analysis based on this game history alone and general gaming expectations of an online player base as well.

The people who aren't playing right now aren't going to suddenly start without a massive structural shift in how the FW game is played.

I suggest you embrace it enough to use a solo queue to channel promising players into the group queue because we aren't going to see those players coming to the current group queue as things stand.

They showed up for TK3. They knew how to fight for the most part. I quasi-organized several drops like that. These people understand the basics, they've see FW once or twice (maybe 10% hadn't), and they're not playing it under normal conditions on purpose. I don't see how that's going to change under any of the proposals that have been put forth, no matter how ingenious they've been.

We have a robust base of players who enjoy dropping alone. Give them a door to enter into the FW environment and you'll see many more of them spill over into the group queue. Leave that door closed and they aren't going to bother even looking in your general direction, just like they aren't right now.

[Insanity09]

Mentoring takes many forms.

Sometimes it can be as easy as trying educate a team in a non-judgemental, non-insulting, non-sarcastic way about 'standard' FW tactics and methods. Essentially, being a decent leader, but with more info than just saying "Push!" or "Go to Echo Five!".

Other times it can be a much more involved process.

However, yes, some people are unsuited to mentoring or unable to do it. Sadly, there are also those who refuse to listen and learn.

I would hope there are enough people capable of being a decent leader, with info, and enough people willing and able to learn to get a more reasonable population into FW.
As long as the negative voices are the main ones, we're unlikely to find out.

[SuperFunkTron]

metallio, on 30 May 2017 - 02:41 PM, said:

...I quasi-organized several drops like that. These people understand the basics, they've see FW once or twice (maybe 10% hadn't), and they're not playing it under normal conditions on purpose. I don't see how that's going to change under any of the proposals that have been put forth, no matter how ingenious they've been.

The quasi organization in itself may be a solution. I remember that I did something similar as well by telling guys who cooperated in a match to join me in LFG and then regularly let people know in Clan chat to make groups in LFG or find my group there.

A potential solution could simply be forcing players to create or join a group (or at least part of a group) in LFG in order to be able to drop. That way it becomes painfully clear that it is a group play mode.

[Cato Zilks]

metallio, on 30 May 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

...you were there, and you "understand"...but you're still saying it wasn't that way? da ***?

I guess I really can't communicate with neanderthals...need to get the translator checked out.

PGI put a solo cue into place. It divided based on tags, because they agreed with the portion of the community that if we split the cues, then some portion of the pug clubbers would just go drop solo to club more pugs. Because some small portion of the playerbase wants the easy cbills. PGI looked at the data they had, listened to our arguments, and tried to be accommodating. They felt splitting based on tags was the best way to have a safe space for puggles to come and dip a toe in the in the scary FW waters.

I understand that the company did not put your idea in place. That is because they thought your idea would lead to pugs getting exploited. They tried a variant of your idea and everyone hated it. It was a horrid waste of man hours for a small company that can't waste its already limited funds. The truth was players wanted experienced people on their side but not on the other.

Now people like you are still whining that you don't want to face good teams. That good players need to be cordoned off so the pugs can safely play. You insist that the company has not tried your variant of a really bad idea. But unlike you, PGI has moved on from you trash way of thinking. They simultaneously reduced cue times and diluted the portion of the population that is OP by combining the buckets. They have added QP maps to make it more appealing/understandable to pugs. The thing that killed their forward progress was probably the Long Tom. But barring that PGI has made steady (albeit slow) progress in the right direction. Stop trying to take us back to that split cue nonsense.

[Wing 0]

This thread is just dumb as fk.

[Archer Magnus]

Well, I will say PUG IS players should stay far away from Faction Play.

I've learned that lesson.

[Commander A9]

Why, oh why, do we want to close off part of the population from a game mode that is starved for people as it is?

Because one side lost?

[MischiefSC]

'fixing' FW by making it more like QP isn't fixing FW. It's getting rid of it.

The real question is 'how do you get the units BACK into FW?'

That's the question that needs an answer.

[Pat Kell]

MischiefSC, on 30 May 2017 - 10:19 PM, said:

'fixing' FW by making it more like QP isn't fixing FW. It's getting rid of it.

The real question is 'how do you get the units BACK into FW?'

That's the question that needs an answer.

I was thinking the question that needs answered was how do you get people not to quit playing after facing a little bit of adversity? Maybe the answer is the same for both questions...I don't know.

[Emeraudes]

Pat Kell, on 30 May 2017 - 10:28 PM, said:

I was thinking the question that needs answered was how do you get people not to quit playing after facing a little bit of adversity? Maybe the answer is the same for both questions...I don't know.

Here's another question to add to that: What is the target audience for this game?

I'm pretty sure the people who expect fast progression with little effort are not the target audience at the moment.

[metallio]

Emeraudes, on 30 May 2017 - 11:58 PM, said:

Here's another question to add to that: What is the target audience for this game?

I'm pretty sure the people who expect fast progression with little effort are not the target audience at the moment.

I'd agree. This is why I think the solo Q is a GOOD idea, not just a workable one. Most of us are willing to grind our hearts out and figure out a way to play the game, but the group stomp-ground that is FW is utterly impossible to see a functional path to access for most of us. It's just not there, which is literally why people don't play it. It's not because they don't love the Mechwarrior universe, kinda obviously. It's not because people are all terrible at this one game and we attract the best of the best for the finest gaming in the universe so we're justified in having a tiny population...it's that it really is d@mn hard for us to jump from "quick play" to "organized tactical maneuvering in a group with good communications" coupled with near zero assistance from the game maker.

We need a stepping stone. Solo Q is it, and it will always be it. You know another way for people to get a feel for the maps? A feel for how combat flows in and out of choke points and cover that's good or bad? It's not the "I just died before I even saw an enemy, wtf just happened?" over and over that we have right now and it's not the unit system that we currently have. I'm sure you're all very capable of training noobs up to FW vets, but you're not accessible. You think you are, but you're not. It's literally why we don't have the population that you want. You can want the world to be the way you think it is, but if it's not that way you're stuck with the results of what is, not what's wanted. That's what we have right now with a tanked FW pop.

It's playing with other disorganized people in those maps and failing like we did when we first launched QP, until we get a feel for the thing.

Oh, yeah, there'll be people who go out there to kill noobs. Just like in every game that's ever existed. Without easy to access grouping they'll never be the problem it's made out to be. There are d@mn few trolls with enough motivation to work out sync dropping or anything even remotely like it and the inability to easily do it as a group means that there won't be enough of them camped out in that solo Q to kill it.

Try it. You'll like it. You won't even have to admit it to anyone like me because there's near zero persistent community in this game.

Edited by metallio, 31 May 2017 - 06:11 AM.

[Maker L106]

Slightly sideways comment to the topic at hand I suppose but I'd like to see more FP players as well... as a QP player myself I've considered joining a group in the past but life / time etc:

If you really want people to get into FP and take it seriously two things need to happen. First it needs to be explained in a way that isn't akin to deciphering a message from dread lord Cthulhu sent to you in a fever induced dream of madness you painted on the wall in conductive ink for unknowable reasons. Second it needs some structure in how things are fitted into the model.

Drop decks for example are a good determining factor in if you should even be in the FP que in the first place. You shouldn't be dropping in there unless you have a full one of not trial mechs. Firm believer in that mentality. That said I'd also wall access to the drop deck system off behind actually joining a group for FP in the game itself. No unit, no DD's (granted that would piss off a lot of independent mercs). So sad.

As for the Meta mechs and how people seem averse to using them, i think that's largely just because a lot of the ones i've personally delt with are boring to play. There's only so much you can enjoy from a laser vomit sparky or a 5xAC5 Mauler until you feel like your a living breathing macro yourself.

Along those lines the typical ER stuff comes to mind when it comes to not just a strait DPS / do one thing well and ONLY that mentality. People crave variety by nature.

Which feeds into other problems that arise in QP but i've no idea of its relevance here so I won't continue.

[MischiefSC]

Pat Kell, on 30 May 2017 - 10:28 PM, said:

I was thinking the question that needs answered was how do you get people not to quit playing after facing a little bit of adversity? Maybe the answer is the same for both questions...I don't know.

People who flounce when they are challenged is a gravity issue - is what it is. Can't fix people. They'll get and go to d something else to quit on.

FW how is about units. The "solo mentality" is the underlying issue that makes pugs hate FW. The solution isn't to make FW more solo friendly, it's to get more units involved.

The question isn't why pugs are leaving FW. It's why the units didn't stay.

[metallio]

Guilds come, guilds go.

Units come, units go.

Why didn't we get more units coming to FW to replace the ones that left? Because of everything discussed above.

Individual "gravity" isn't any different here than it is in the rest of the world and there's a huge gaming presence online, including massive numbers of people who make a game their second job, putting more into it than their actual employment and families.

Mechwarrior is practically a legendary IP. We don't need to fix people, they'll play if the game gives them any reason to care.

FW doesn't. The reason is that units are made up of individuals, who all start as solos...pugs. You sh!t on them ever day and make FW something they won't even pretend to get involved in as if they should care because you have an established presence there and they should be honored to bask in it. They, and everyone with a hint of self, already told you to F off by not playing in your sand box.

You can give them a reason to come back and they'll form relationships, and then units, in your FW corner of the internet. Then you'll get to play with them. Those people you think could use fixin' and look down on. Unless you think there's just some group of hard shootin' gamers out there who need talked into seein' how things run 'round heah 'cuz they'll see how cool it is to be a part of what you've got goin' and stick around, making it awesome.

Those people don't exist. They're the pugs and solos you keep sh!tting on, after they've gotten to love playing the game and garnered some experience.

Give them a reason to show or keep eating the loneliness around these parts, because it's all you're gonna get.

Solo Q would bring them in to take a look and give them a reason to play. Look how easy it is to get a scouting mission. That's practically "FW solo Q" lite. People play it all the time, and it lets those dirty PuG players do something to support FW.

Honestly, with the attitude around here that 90%+ of the MWO community is lazy, stupid, worthless, and whatever else you mouthbreathers want to call them because they don't play your game I'm not certain there's ever going to be a way to bring the population back, but solo Q would actually give it a shot.

Not likely to happen, nor is anything else that makes sense, but what the he11 I'll keep saying it. I like the game and the IP and I'd rather see it rise than fall.

[Xannatharr]

I believe that trying to make a game mode designed for group play more "solo-friendly" perverts the design of the game mode.

If you disagree with the design decisions made that created this product that is vastly enhanced by utilizing various (in-game and out of game) resources to group up, then that's fine. PGI has made tons of questionable design decisions over the years, they have made it something of an art form.

But given that there is an inadequate population in the game overall to support fracturing the available player base any further while still retaining satisfactory queue times, making Faction Play more appealing to solo players by giving them a separate queue with no teams seems wrong-headed.

Get this through your head: There was only a very small chance that Mechwarrior Online was going to become a breakout hit with a regular population of players at the 500,00 mark or higher. The IP is too niche and the studio that developed the game (and their former publisher) too limited in resources/ability to have a solid chance of making the game a huge success.

What they have done is given a low-cost outlet to fans of the original tabletop game, books and the various Mechwarrior software titles who want to play stompy mechs and shoot other big stompy mechs. All we have to do is buy the occasional mech pack or some premium time and the enterprise continues because even though it is niche there is enough revenue to support ongoing development of the title.

Wrap your head around that, and accept the fact that at this point the chances of the playerbase growing in any meaningful way is probably extremely low. Incoming players that discover the game might be roughly equal to existing players who give it up.

So people that don't want to be bothered to team up in any way should either stay in Quick Play or go ahead and drop Faction solo, knowing that not everyone is unwilling to put in a tiny bit more effort in order to get a better result.

It's fair, it's almost free and it is still fun. STOP TRYING TO F*CK IT UP.

Respectfully,

Xann

Edited by Xannatharr, 31 May 2017 - 07:47 AM.

[MischiefSC]

metallio, on 31 May 2017 - 07:36 AM, said:

Guilds come, guilds go.

Units come, units go.

Why didn't we get more units coming to FW to replace the ones that left? Because of everything discussed above.

Individual "gravity" isn't any different here than it is in the rest of the world and there's a huge gaming presence online, including massive numbers of people who make a game their second job, putting more into it than their actual employment and families.

Mechwarrior is practically a legendary IP. We don't need to fix people, they'll play if the game gives them any reason to care.

FW doesn't. The reason is that units are made up of individuals, who all start as solos...pugs. You sh!t on them ever day and make FW something they won't even pretend to get involved in as if they should care because you have an established presence there and they should be honored to bask in it. They, and everyone with a hint of self, already told you to F off by not playing in your sand box.

You can give them a reason to come back and they'll form relationships, and then units, in your FW corner of the internet. Then you'll get to play with them. Those people you think could use fixin' and look down on. Unless you think there's just some group of hard shootin' gamers out there who need talked into seein' how things run 'round heah 'cuz they'll see how cool it is to be a part of what you've got goin' and stick around, making it awesome.

Those people don't exist. They're the pugs and solos you keep sh!tting on, after they've gotten to love playing the game and garnered some experience.

Give them a reason to show or keep eating the loneliness around these parts, because it's all you're gonna get.

Solo Q would bring them in to take a look and give them a reason to play. Look how easy it is to get a scouting mission. That's practically "FW solo Q" lite. People play it all the time, and it lets those dirty PuG players do something to support FW.

Honestly, with the attitude around here that 90%+ of the MWO community is lazy, stupid, worthless, and whatever else you mouthbreathers want to call them because they don't play your game I'm not certain there's ever going to be a way to bring the population back, but solo Q would actually give it a shot.

Not likely to happen, nor is anything else that makes sense, but what the he11 I'll keep saying it. I like the game and the IP and I'd rather see it rise than fall.

Just put the FW maps/modes in QP. No issue with casual pugs wanting access to the content. Have always asked for that.

FW though, as in factions fighting over planets, has always been a teamwork thing. I get that not everyone has the energy or willingness to do teamwork. That's why QP is there. You don't fix FW by making it casual QP. That's eliminating FW.

Units left due to lack of purpose to the mode. Originally the idea was units would control worlds and that would provide real benefits - not a few cents of MC for a few days. The idea was the map would involve logistics and that you could specify worlds to attack for strategic purposes. There was a lot of depth and purpose.... which turned out not to happen and FW was just a grind choke points on a handful of maps. Winning/losing largely irrelevant, map irrelevant. Units owning dropships which impacted what they could bring, etc.

FW was never designed to be a casual QP environment. That's the whole point of it. That's why it's got the warning when you join up. I get that you want it to cater to casual solo players but that part of the game already exists. I get that you're saying that the game will fail if FW isn't designed to cater to casual solo pugs and we will RUE THE DAY we didn't just disband all teams and ban people for using teamwork or whatever equally ridiculous argument you're trying to hang on converting FW to QP 2.0.

FW was always point at groups. Units are a big chunk of the games population. Most the people in every match you drop in have tags. The question is how do you make it attractive to play as a unit in FW.