107 replies to this topic

[Jay Leon Hart]

Honestly, I never even considered running my SNV-1 with 6MPL instead of 6ERML to go with the 2LPL. I ran it with 2PPC & 6MPL for a while, so I guess it just never seemed like a good idea at the time?

Off to the Mech Lab with me!

[Gas Guzzler]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 July 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

Quite frankly, you being up in arms over PPC/Gauss still comes across as extremely fishy, considering you don't use it. Supposedly. And that argument of options? Your own argument for it being unused kind of works against it. A lack of a nonoption is not a lack of an option, now is it?

Fishy? I don't see why. If PGI came out and said they were going to nerf LRM boats I would be up in arms too because that is a dumb change. I have a few PPC/Gauss mechs, I use them less than I use the laservomit or PPC/AC mechs though. And one of the PPC/Gauss mechs I use is the Dragon Slayer, which we know isn't a "meta" pick by any means. I'm not sure if I said I never use them, but when people tell me "You are just upset because now you have to use something else" the response is typically "most of the time I am using something else".

Anyway... off topic tangent. Sorry.

[Pariah Devalis]

Jay Leon Hart, on 17 July 2017 - 10:13 AM, said:

Honestly, I never even considered running my SNV-1 with 6MPL instead of 6ERML to go with the 2LPL. I ran it with 2PPC & 6MPL for a while, so I guess it just never seemed like a good idea at the time?

Off to the Mech Lab with me!

6 MPlas 2 LPlas is hilarious on it. 30 DHS and it just obliterates things. I hated giving up the ER laser duration quirk, but it was only 5%. The pulse laser duration are still beating it handily.

[Cy Mitchell]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 July 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

Then you are talking just mediums since most Clan heavies outside of the Linebacker should have more than just 6 cMPLs. Hell, a good chunk of the Clan mediums should either be mounting more than that or can't even mount that many.

You can see the Mechs that I play in my signature. Technically, I can put more than 6 cMPL on the HBR but to what purpose? I have run it that way and it does give you a little better Alpha but you also get GH so the benefits are not worth it in a longer engagement. I know from a comp standpoint the only viable build for a HBR is 4x cerLL but I put my comp days behind me back in MWLL so our perspectives differ when it comes to MWO.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Asym, on 17 July 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

Brawling is where PGI is taking this game; if you haven't seen that coming you must be a player who loves to brawl.

Lol, no. The laser balance murdered brawling (since it pretty much relied on cSPLs) so I don't think they are trying to force the game to be that way otherwise they wouldn't have ever done that.

Rampage, on 17 July 2017 - 10:21 AM, said:

I know from a comp standpoint the only viable build for a HBR is 4x cerLL

That build isn't comp and hasn't been for a long time. That said, when we get that 2E RT for the HBR, it might be an option instead of the EBJ cuz it can poke a lot better than the EBJ.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 July 2017 - 10:25 AM.

[Khobai]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 July 2017 - 07:47 AM, said:

Except I think you missed the part where cERMLs just got their max range back. I didn't see pulse get the same thing. In other words cLPL/cERML boats just got better.

I still think they are making some really bad balance changes but I guess at least they are actually iterating for once?

Their heat, duration, and cooldown all got increased though.

The extra range is nice but the weapon is no longer what it used to be.

Its no longer a multipurpose laser, now its more specialized, and it will only be decent on maps where the extra range can be put to good use.

I definitely think the MPL is now the best all around laser for clans, the CERML just runs too hot for all purpose use.

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Need I remind you that before the laser rebalance, cERML/cLPL was the goto laser vomit build (and it was strong, both the Ebjag and Mad IIC used it). Yes the extra burn duration hurts a little bit, but it having reduced range also hurt it, and one of those just got reverted.

Its more than just extra burn duration though. Theres extra heat. extra cooldown.

The CERML is worse than it used to be. And the CMPL is better than it used to be.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 July 2017 - 10:14 AM, said:

6 MPlas 2 LPlas is hilarious on it. 30 DHS and it just obliterates things. I hated giving up the ER laser duration quirk, but it was only 5%. The pulse laser duration are still beating it handily.

It also helps that the SVN has more free weight than it knows what to do with. The cERML build after all runs SHS.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 July 2017 - 10:25 AM, said:

It also helps that the SVN has more free weight than it knows what to do with. The cERML build after all runs SHS.

Huh... I could do the math but is 40 SHS better than 29 DHS?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 10:25 AM, said:

Their heat, duration, and cooldown all got increased though.

Their heat doesn't really matter since the cooldown got increased and in the end, all the cooldown changes is when you can refire that massive alpha (which isn't a huge deal). The duration is the only change that really hurt, and again, they are getting their double max range back so that isn't as much of a problem. I mean you are essentially trading .1s duration and a little bit slower cooldown for 112m of max range (allowing them to do 1.5 more damage at 600m) which I'm ok with because that extra range makes them pair better with cLPLs again. Again, the cERML was used before the laser rebalance for a reason.

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 10:25 AM, said:

Its more than just extra burn duration though. Theres extra heat. extra cooldown.

The extra cooldown makes that extra heat less of an issue. The cMPL can refire quicker than the cERML which can be nice, but so is having longer effective range.

Gas Guzzler, on 17 July 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

Huh... I could do the math but is 40 SHS better than 29 DHS?

I believe it is the last time I did the math, you get a slight bit better dissipation and a decently higher cap.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 July 2017 - 10:33 AM.

[Khobai]

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Their heat doesn't really matter since the cooldown got increased

what difference does that make? they still run comparatively much hotter than MPL

Its 6.3 heat for 7 damage vs 4.75 heat for the same 7 damage

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The cMPL can refire quicker than the cERML which can be nice, but so is having longer effective range.

it only gets 70m more optimum range. not much of an advantage there. when you consider other factors like the CMPL having less heat, shorter beam duration, cooldown, etc...

the max range is better, like 240m I think, but the CERML is pretty inefficient firing beyond its optimum range because of its high heat.

im not saying the CERML is bad, its not, its just more specialized that it used to be. It no longer has a definitive advantage over the CMPL, you have to consider more carefully which one you want to bring.

Edited by Khobai, 17 July 2017 - 10:42 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 July 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

I believe it is the last time I did the math, you get a slight bit better dissipation and a decently higher cap.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 10:34 AM, said:

Its 6.3 heat for 7 damage vs 4.75 heat for the same 7 damage

Sure, but longer cooldown forces me to wait all the while the heat is dissipated. Sure I could do the same with cMPLs but then you are losing one of their advantages which is refire rate because keep in mind, the cERMLs gain 1 DHS for every cMPL.

1 DHS = .75 dissipated inbetween cooldowns for cERMLs making the difference around 4.75 vs 5.55 in heat if you are refiring on the cERML cooldown. You also have less max range and shorter duration (which makes sense, shorter durations and lower range SHOULD go hand in hand) which to me is where the real trade-off is.

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 10:34 AM, said:

the max range is better, like 240m I think, but the CERML is pretty inefficient firing beyond its optimum range because of its high heat.

561m vs 800m, that's a very stark difference (450m vs 600m of what I would call effective range since that is where you do half damage). Heat is also less of an issue the further your range because you know, being able to do damage before someone closes is an advantage itself and yes, people fired them outside of optimum even before so your argument that you shouldn't is silly because a lot more damage happens outside of optimum range than you seem to admit (and that goes for all weapons).

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 10:34 AM, said:

it only gets 70m more optimum range. not much of an advantage there.

Good thing you can use lasers past optimum huh?

Gas is correct, push builds will find themselves using cMPLs and poke builds will find themselves using cERMLs. The question is where the meta will be shifting towards push or poke with the standard Night Gyr build getting some of its bite removed.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 July 2017 - 10:46 AM.

[Khobai]

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Sure I could do the same with cMPLs but then you are losing one of their advantages which is refire rate because keep in mind, the cERMLs gain 1 DHS for every cMPL.

not necessarily. the amount of DHS you can have is limited more by crit slots than tonnage. so the fact the MPL weighs an extra ton doesnt necessary mean you get an extra DHS. because both take up the same number of crit slots. It is still very possible to use CMPL and max out on DHS.

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Good thing you can use lasers past optimum huh?

Yes but the damage ramps down past optimum range. Which makes the CERML very inefficient with its 6.3 heat.

Less than 7 damage for 6.3 is not so good.

That is why I now consider the CERML a specialized weapon. Because it is now only good in a very specific range band and not as good as it used to be at every range band.

The CMPL absolutely crushes the CERML at 330m or less. Its likely still better than the CERML at 400m or less because even though its doing less damage at 400m, it still has less heat, duration, cooldown, etc...

The CERML is only better between like 400m-500m and beyond that the damage drops off too much to be worth the heat. If you fire it at 600m, youre only doing like 3.5 damage for 6.3 heat which is pretty awful.

PGI has deliberately made the lasers more specialized so no single laser dominates anymore. I think they did a pretty good job with the CMPL and CERML at least. The small/micro lasers still have a bunch of issues though.

Edited by Khobai, 17 July 2017 - 10:54 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

Yes but the damage ramps down past optimum range. Which makes the CERML very inefficient with its 6.3 heat.

Less than 7 damage for 6.3 is not so good.

A full laser vomit alpha gains 1.8 heat. I'm not really that concerned. The range buff is what is going to make it stronger than it already is.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

not necessarily. the amount of DHS you can have is limited more by crit slots than tonnage. so the fact the MPL weighs an extra ton doesnt necessary mean you get an extra DHS. because both take up the same number of crit slots.

Most builds can afford the space, the only ones that can't are Assaults generally. The problem there though is that range is MOST important to assaults because they lack speed more than any other class so you will often find yourself accepting being less heat efficient just to use lasers with better range.

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

Less than 7 damage for 6.3 is not so good.

Considering I used to fire it for less than 7 damage for 6 heat, I'm not really concerned with that because sometimes doing that damage is more important than losing the DPS.

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

The CMPL absolutely crushes the CERML at 330m or less. Its likely still better than the CERML at 400m or less because even though its doing less damage at 400m, it still has less heat, duration, cooldown, etc...

The CERML is only better between like 400m-500m and beyond that the damage drops off too much to be worth the heat.

Nowhere did I state that cERMLs were better than cMPLs at 330 or less, honestly at 450m I would much rather have cMPLs, but, that's still 150m where cERMLs are more useful and that is a very important 150m range because that range is where PPC/Gauss used to dominate.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 July 2017 - 10:52 AM.

[Khobai]

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Considering I used to fire it for less than 7 damage for 6 heat, I'm not really concerned with that because sometimes doing that damage is more important than losing the DPS.

Yes but back then you didnt have another option. Now you do. The MPL got a huge buff compared to how it was back then

Thats the whole point.

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A full laser vomit alpha gains 1.8 heat. I'm not really that concerned. The range buff is what is going to make it stronger than it already is.

At 400m-500m I agree. But its not that great past that. CERML has a highly specialized range band now.

If you want to do damage past 500m youre better off considering large lasers. Theyre far more efficient at 500m and greater. And laser vomit builds will of course have large pulse lasers anyway. So the combination of MPL and LPL is definitely one worth considering.

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The problem there though is that range is MOST important to assaults because they lack speed more than any other class

I agree. Which is why I said you have to consider both now. They both have advantages. I might prefer CERML on slow assault or heavy. But on something faster id probably go with CMPLs.

It all depends how confident you are about closing that 100m-150m gap where CERML are better than CMPL.

Edited by Khobai, 17 July 2017 - 11:04 AM.

[Antares102]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 July 2017 - 10:23 AM, said:

Lol, no. The laser balance murdered brawling (since it pretty much relied on cSPLs) so I don't think they are trying to force the game to be that way otherwise they wouldn't have ever done that.

This and engine desync was also a big factor for killing brawling at least for assaults.
With an assaults its really really hard now to get into a fight quickly enough (due to high accel time), maneuver when required and torso twist within your 3-4 sec cooldown interval.
Engine desync really killed brawling for my assaults which I used mostly to do it.

The TBR which i used for brawling with 4x ARSM6 and 5x SPL is also no longer working due to the extremly reduced agility it relied upon for brawling.

Edited by Antares102, 17 July 2017 - 11:03 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 10:56 AM, said:

Yes but back then you didnt have another option. Now you do. The MPL got a huge buff compared to how it was back then

Again, where did I disagree with them being better than they used to be?

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 10:56 AM, said:

Thats the whole point.

No it's not, this is the ATM argument all over again, it is about the advantages of something being negligible over something that has longer range because of how important range can be. Part of the problem is lack of synergy with any other weapon and inability to boat them like you used to be able to boat cSPLs. Honestly though they need to stop nerfing the damage per shot on them, if they did their old damage of 8 but had their heat just decreased appropriately (to 5.33) instead of the initial change they made, I wouldn't be arguing right now.

Antares102, on 17 July 2017 - 11:01 AM, said:

This and engine desync was also a big factor for killing brawling at least for assaults.
With an assaults its really really hard now to get into a fight quickly enough (due to high accel time), maneuver when required and torso twist within your 3-4 sec cooldown interval.
Engine desync really killed brawling for my assaults which I used mostly to do it.

Both the Gargoyle and Nova had the same agility post skill tree, just like they did before the skill tree. The moment they killed cSPLs is the day they killed brawling assaults because the Gargoyle relied on the power of those cSPLs.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 July 2017 - 11:16 AM.

[sceii]

cMPL are best now because all other lasers suck balls so hard you can't use them in any dynamic role, you either deal with cerll level of burn time(erml-ersml) or pathetic damage(cspl) or hot as hell lasers(erll/lpl).
After patch cmpl will be a slightly worse(a bit worse heat efficiency, a bit less alpha potential) it will make other ****** lasers a bit better compared to them, but still worse for dynamic play(longer cd and less efficiency for ERs).
The only weapon i'm looking for after this patch will be lmg and hmg, too bad that the best clan weapon will be the one that was partially trolling gun for years.

[Khobai]

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The moment they killed cSPLs is the day they killed brawling assaults because the Gargoyle relied on the power of those cSPLs.

I dont think the CMPL is much worse than the CSPL used to be.

Its 7 damage for 4.75 heat with twice the effective range vs 6 damage for 3 heat with half the effective range

So its 1.25 extra heat but also twice the range. thats not so bad.

Really whats killing assault brawlers like the gargoyle/executioner now is the locked jumpjets. If they could free up that tonnage for the heavier medium pulses theyd be fine.

So it probably is time to bring up unlocking jumpjets on omnis again... you should not be forced to take locked equipment if said locked equipment is effectively useless.

Edited by Khobai, 17 July 2017 - 11:21 AM.