128 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

I think it was an .... acceptable idea. I mean, it still relies on ghost heat, one of the the most horrible mechanic PGI ever implemented.

I don't mind if they end up nerfing lasers abit again, too. It would raise the TTK again, which I still think of as useful.
(Though I would mind if they did it with ghost heat, too. At some point, you're simply ruining the usability of your game. Trying to avoid hidden heat modifiers by cleverly pressing keys with the right delay is not my idea of a fun game mechanic.

Before they add even more or stricter ghost heat penalties, they should just force all weapons to chain-fire and remove group fire. They can have a special button for "alpha strike" that really fires all weapons that can be used once every 30 seconds for people that insist that alpha strikes must fire all weapons in an instant.)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 22 September 2017 - 03:37 AM.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

justcallme A S H, on 22 September 2017 - 02:57 AM, said:

If Gauss in arm explodes, it does not take off torso... I've never died to a XL death in my Jager from the Gauss going pop.

Never experienced it in my Jag too. But I did when I tried to make Zeus 9S2 usable by experimenting with gauss arm. It was a long time ago, but I remember it quite clearly, as I ditched that variant altogether after that, and never returned to it, what happened maybe to 2 mechs in my history of playing MWO. And my fun in MWO is mainly making non-meta mechs work,

justcallme A S H, on 22 September 2017 - 02:57 AM, said:

The issue in what you say is the IS XL - The biggest imbalance in MWO

Hard to argue against that. IMHO still, among the Clan/IS tech (not weapon) imbalances, heatsinks still were that one PGI actually tried to address one time. Strangely, they ditched the idea at the release of MAD IIC

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 22 September 2017 - 04:36 AM.

[MadRover]

justcallme A S H, on 21 September 2017 - 09:34 PM, said:

Balance at the upper level of play is where balance should be occurring.

Not at the LCD level

No it should occur in the middle area. You can't balance top tier because everyone will go for what kills effiently and quickly. It's the nature of top tier. You can balance middle tier because you get the overall idea of where balance is truly, pretty much like a scale, and there's generally more people involved in the middle tier. So you have a better sample size rather than a limited sample size, not to mention you don't punish all those new players unknowingly which is what we don't want anyway.

[MadRover]

Col Jaime Wolf, on 22 September 2017 - 04:43 AM, said:

hes right mr rover, you have to balance from the top down because anything you make easy to use for the masses will get abused by the top teir players its a vicious circular cycle that can only be broken by balancing from the top.

Anything can be abused by top tier players. That's what top tier players do. You change something and if that change made it better dramatically, it will get abused. You see it in WoT and WoWs, and this game is no different. Take a look at CoD, BF, RV6S, and any other multiplayer game and you'll see the truly competitive good players using only the best and only mediocre when they're bored. To make healthy balance changes you can't sample the top and especially in this game you can't just look at the top. You have to look at everything individually because this game is very difficult to balance everything to the point it actually makes sense.


Swinging the nerf bat at everything is not balance. Anyone can tell you that. It's punishing players that use things that are generally viable. This game has a fairly good balance at the moment; it's still fairly easy to twist laser damage, it's fairly easy to force a sniper to put a shot somewhere else or better yet put force them to do damage at two components instead of one, it's still easy to counter LRMs unless out in the open. Now the current main issue is the lack of content (maps PGI give us more maps), the fact FW isn't really fun the way it currently functions, and these are not being resolved shows how little PGI can afford to be swinging the nerf bat around like no tomorrow. Balance is fine and it's what any player will tell me when I complain about something that was my own fault, play smarter.

[kesmai]

50% like the status quo.
.ggclose.

[Bud Crue]

Col Jaime Wolf, on 22 September 2017 - 05:21 AM, said:

no balance is not good, balance is horrid right now and i will tell you why its horrid. because the "meta" right now is lasers+gauss period. it works, it works well, it works on every map in any circumstance. that is not balance that is one playstyle to rule them all.

...

right now the best players are almost exclusively using lasers and gauss. that means balance is bad my friend.

Question for PGI, I suppose, but in anticipation of the gauss/laser GH nerf that I presume will eventually be imposed, and imposed equally to all mechs to the same degree such as the gauss/ppc GH nerf is being applied: what are the exemplary IS gauss/vomit mechs that are being played competitively or by the better players of the game, and which are guilty of such unbalanced domination of play? Also, what were the exemplary gauss/ppc mechs on the IS side that were causing such an imbalance to warrant their nerffing? Legit curious.

[Verilligo]

Col Jaime Wolf, on 22 September 2017 - 05:21 AM, said:

no balance is not good, balance is horrid right now and i will tell you why its horrid. because the "meta" right now is lasers+gauss period. it works, it works well, it works on every map in any circumstance. that is not balance that is one playstyle to rule them all.

the gauss peep ghost heat link is so freaking stupid words can not even describe, lasers plus gauss was roughly comparable to peeps plus gauss, i would give you that peeps and gauss held the edge slighty, but it also required lead time and better positional awareness to fight against lasers+gauss IE skill, it was a better weapons setup but it needed more skill and intelligence to utilize properly, that is balance. when one playstyle can be countered by another that is balance.

what isnt balanced is that brawling at the top only happens on mining colony, which is fine but you can also use lasers+gauss and peeps+gauss to devastating effect on that map as well, with proper skill and awareness. the problem is, generally speaking, brawling requires an insane amount of skill and/or coord to close the gap in many circumstances, you are not going to get close to EMP or Lords on alpine if they dont want you to.

but generally speaking, on every map in every mode gauss and lasers give you the best chance of success, gauss and peeps can still be used but in no way can it put up a fight if both teams are equally skilled, same thing with brawling.

again i will say it again, if you make any weapon good to use for the masses, the middle tier players it will get abused by the top teir players against those middle teir players which will require PGI to nerf those same weapons, that they buffed so that middle teir players have something easy and simple to use, because of the top teir players.

you simply cannot balance by potato, you balance from the top because once you see top teir players taking the many different kinds of weapons with regularity you know you have achieved balance, because the best players recognize the best weapons setup thats part of what makes them the best players.

so when the best players in the game recognize that their are many GOOD options and they then feild a good variety of those weapons you know that those weapons are pretty well balanced.

right now the best players are almost exclusively using lasers and gauss. that means balance is bad my friend.

Not to say that balance doesn't need changing, but if Gauss/PPC was slightly better than Gauss/Laser before... why would the top teams use anything other than Gauss/PPC? I mean it was BETTER, if even by a slight margin, and more conducive to killing a mech with as little damage as possible. I'm not sure you can ever actually achieve perfect balance such that all the weapons are taken by all the competitive players. Just as you said, the top players will find the best builds and use those builds exclusively because... they're the best builds. The less variation a drop commander has to worry about, the easier their life is unless they have a specific strategy in mind. Heck, watching oooold old comp videos on B33f's channel, there's only a little bit of variation between what both teams fielded, except on specific maps with specific strategies being put into play.

[Bud Crue]

Col Jaime Wolf, on 22 September 2017 - 05:58 AM, said:

Mechs, in response to my question

In your opinion are any of those mechs dominating the game? Are they so prevelant that they justify a nerf?

My point being that it seems to me that the gauss/ppc "imbalance" was the result of potentially three-four mechs and all are clan (e.g. Kodiak (not so much anymore), the Mad-IIc Night Gyr, and MK-II). Yet, the nerf was/is applied to all mechs, both IS and Clan indiscriminately. I believe a similar number of mechs, and which are also predominately Clan mechs, are likewise the primary cause of the gauss/vomit "imbalance". Yet, if PGI is consistent (god forbid) they will likely perceive gauss/vomit to be just as offensive and just as in need of a GH nerf, as gauss/ppc was, and thus they will similarly nerf everything capable of running it, despite far less than everything being the actual "problem".

[Daurock]

Bud Crue, on 22 September 2017 - 06:07 AM, said:

In your opinion are any of those mechs dominating the game? Are they so prevelant that they justify a nerf?

My point being that it seems to me that the gauss/ppc "imbalance" was the result of potentially three-four mechs and all are clan (e.g. Kodiak (not so much anymore), the Mad-IIc Night Gyr, and MK-II). Yet, the nerf was/is applied to all mechs, both IS and Clan indiscriminately. I believe a similar number of mechs, and which are also predominately Clan mechs, are likewise the primary cause of the gauss/vomit "imbalance". Yet, if PGI is consistent (god forbid) they will likely perceive gauss/vomit to be just as offensive and just as in need of a GH nerf, as gauss/ppc was, and thus they will similarly nerf everything capable of running it, despite far less than everything being the actual "problem".

Probably not far off of the truth. I do think, however that in this case, they could at least look specifically at clan lasers as more the problem than laser+gauss being the specific problem. (As LaserVomit sans gauss also pretty dominant these days, and is also pretty much exclusively a clan thing)

[Daurock]

Col Jaime Wolf, on 22 September 2017 - 07:27 AM, said:

see, doesnt take two seconds, always "clan has better this, we better nerf it" well IS has better ac's across the board in exception of LBX's again people are delusional. heat effecient 40 pinpoint has been possible since the mauler hit the scene.

I would argue that clan Standard ACs need to some love too, just FYI. I'd give them a reload hit when compared to IS tech for thier weight and range advantage, and make them pinpoint. (Keep the ultras as burst) Without that pinpoint, there is about 0 reason to use them right now.

As for the ultras, I'm not going to argue one way or another on which feels more useful. The range and weight of IS ones hurt, but jamming less is a really nice perk.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 September 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

i still feel like an ATM27 Cougar with a light Tag could wreak havoc in MRBC drop 1...

Hey, no spoiling the party.

That 80 pt hit will wipe the ST of an HBKIIC in one volley. Almost 100% certain. I've tested it and played with it a lot. They're not good at securing kills, however they *love* dem legs even at 500m and if you have high ground on someone they're pretty solid about dropping the whole playload on one ST. Yes, it's 81 pts inside 300m but it's still

3x9 is the sweet spot too. Best for it is probably the MDD, one Prime and an A torso. 3x9, 5 or 6 tons of ammo and 4 ersmls, the rest DHS. The smalls work just fine in your sweet spot for damage and at longer range you're usually not coming high enough into cover to get the arms pointed at someone anyway. You want that tonnage for the extra DHS because she's a hot girl.

However at 240m or so you're over 100 damage each alpha and with quirks and skill tree your cooldown is 4 seconds for the missiles and your total DPS is about 18.5, sustainable to a bit over 300 damage on most maps.

You can also run 3x9 on an an Onion IIC with a ballistic and 2 or 3 energy but the convergence is ****. The MKII can run ballistics + 3x9 + a couple of lasers for alphas well over 100 at a longer range but it's much, much easier to play ATMs on something quick.

Currently there's just not a good Clan medium for running ATMs. They're just so heavy. 3x9 is about 20 tons of hardware and it's hot AF and needs DHS. I've found the MDD to be about ideal for them and even in FW against solid teams they can be stupidly effective.

[MischiefSC]

Col Jaime Wolf, on 22 September 2017 - 05:21 AM, said:

no balance is not good, balance is horrid right now and i will tell you why its horrid. because the "meta" right now is lasers+gauss period. it works, it works well, it works on every map in any circumstance. that is not balance that is one playstyle to rule them all.

the gauss peep ghost heat link is so freaking stupid words can not even describe, lasers plus gauss was roughly comparable to peeps plus gauss, i would give you that peeps and gauss held the edge slighty, but it also required lead time and better positional awareness to fight against lasers+gauss IE skill, it was a better weapons setup but it needed more skill and intelligence to utilize properly, that is balance. when one playstyle can be countered by another that is balance.

what isnt balanced is that brawling at the top only happens on mining colony, which is fine but you can also use lasers+gauss and peeps+gauss to devastating effect on that map as well, with proper skill and awareness. the problem is, generally speaking, brawling requires an insane amount of skill and/or coord to close the gap in many circumstances, you are not going to get close to EMP or Lords on alpine if they dont want you to.

but generally speaking, on every map in every mode gauss and lasers give you the best chance of success, gauss and peeps can still be used but in no way can it put up a fight if both teams are equally skilled, same thing with brawling.

again i will say it again, if you make any weapon good to use for the masses, the middle tier players it will get abused by the top teir players against those middle teir players which will require PGI to nerf those same weapons, that they buffed so that middle teir players have something easy and simple to use, because of the top teir players.

you simply cannot balance by potato, you balance from the top because once you see top teir players taking the many different kinds of weapons with regularity you know you have achieved balance, because the best players recognize the best weapons setup thats part of what makes them the best players.

so when the best players in the game recognize that their are many GOOD options and they then feild a good variety of those weapons you know that those weapons are pretty well balanced.

right now the best players are almost exclusively using lasers and gauss. that means balance is bad my friend.

Except that gauss + peep vs gauss + laser is not and never was 'build diversity'.

The point of desync for gauss and PPCs is to let PPCs get some buffs they can never get when you sync them with gauss. So if PPCs can get some buffs you can end up with some other ballistics and PPCs and energy combos.

Because lasers + Gauss vs Goose Peeps was not build diversity and the strengths of the Goose Peep is why we got half the nerfs we have in this game.

Sweet baby jebus, maybe now we can get some JJ nerfs rolled back.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 22 September 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

Sweet baby jebus, maybe now we can get some JJ nerfs rolled back.

You won't because cERPPC poptarts are still strong at long-extreme range.

[Josh Seles]

Now that Gauss and PPC's have linked ghost heat, can we get rid of Gauss charge-ups?

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 September 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

You won't because cERPPC poptarts are still strong at long-extreme range.

Yes - even with current JJ gimpery. Since you can't now stack gauss and 2xPPCs on a JJ assault and drop it all in one place why still have JJs on assaults only give lift like a mild case of flatulence?

That's the whole point. The current 2xppc poptart meta is now the 'cap' for PPFLD single location poptart firepower.

Honestly I'd forgotten that I could even put JJs on my SNVs and MKIIs - because why the **** would I waste the tonnage for something that literally takes longer to get me up and over a tiny, tiny obstruction than it would take me to just walk around it? There is absolutely no way at all for any sort of sanity I'd blow 4, 6 or 8 tons for more JJs on an assault. Not to mention a bunch of skill tree points. Because, of course, 6 pts of JJ quirks for too heavy, too weak JJs to get them just better than 'feeble' is exactly as valuable as 2-8 tons of weapons and DHS and 6 pts of cooling and range quirks for them.

Gauss/PPC desync is literally exactly why we got JJ nerfs. Poptarts at 35+ PPFLD were too much big stronk (and it was). Now that it's 20 pts and 10 sorta spread points, that's not big stronk. It's good, but not too big stronk.

Quickly, everyone! Man the Twitters! Full Tweet ahead! We can make this happen. #LetFatRobbitsFly

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 22 September 2017 - 09:04 AM, said:

Yes - even with current JJ gimpery. Since you can't now stack gauss and 2xPPCs on a JJ assault and drop it all in one place why still have JJs on assaults only give lift like a mild case of flatulence?

Cuz mechs like the Highlander could make a return if JJs didn't suck. Now I'm not 100% on that but I would hesitate to say that just because PPCs + Gauss is gone that assaults should be able to poptart.

[MadRover]

Bud Crue, on 22 September 2017 - 06:07 AM, said:

In your opinion are any of those mechs dominating the game? Are they so prevelant that they justify a nerf?

My point being that it seems to me that the gauss/ppc "imbalance" was the result of potentially three-four mechs and all are clan (e.g. Kodiak (not so much anymore), the Mad-IIc Night Gyr, and MK-II). Yet, the nerf was/is applied to all mechs, both IS and Clan indiscriminately. I believe a similar number of mechs, and which are also predominately Clan mechs, are likewise the primary cause of the gauss/vomit "imbalance". Yet, if PGI is consistent (god forbid) they will likely perceive gauss/vomit to be just as offensive and just as in need of a GH nerf, as gauss/ppc was, and thus they will similarly nerf everything capable of running it, despite far less than everything being the actual "problem".

PGI is releasing the Nightstar coming October and it will be a gauss platform. The real question is why did it take PGI so long to release a gauss capable IS mech? Also, isAC is far superior to Clan in every way and form. So while we're complaining about Clan still having any ballistics worth taking, IS has 4 ballistic weapon systems that are worth taking that is also very bursty and now they're about to get a 5th that is straightforward as cGauss. PGI give IS some more gauss mechs since the lack of IS Gauss mechs is a very big problem and mech LGR worthwhile to even use.

Here's a simple fix for LGauss, increase damage to 10 per shell and reduce ammo per ton by 4 so IS will have multiple mechs and build varieties that can run gauss efficiently. (This here is what I call a buff)

[Y E O N N E]

MadRover, on 22 September 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

PGI is releasing the Nightstar coming October and it will be a gauss platform. The real question is why did it take PGI so long to release a gauss capable IS mech? Also, isAC is far superior to Clan in every way and form. So while we're complaining about Clan still having any ballistics worth taking, IS has 4 ballistic weapon systems that are worth taking that is also very bursty and now they're about to get a 5th that is straightforward as cGauss. PGI give IS some more gauss mechs since the lack of IS Gauss mechs is a very big problem and mech LGR worthwhile to even use.

Here's a simple fix for LGauss, increase damage to 10 per shell and reduce ammo per ton by 4 so IS will have multiple mechs and build varieties that can run gauss efficiently. (This here is what I call a buff)

You can give as many IS Assaults high mounted ballistic arms as you want, but if you don't also give them 10 energy hardpoints and bump the ghost heat on isERML to 8, they will not ever hold a candle to the MCII. You are still running around with a piddly 63 damage at 55 kph.

And no, the ammo wouldn't need a nerf down. That's half the problem right there; already spending a premium on an inferior weapon, let's spend even more on ammo so we can't have any left to combine with a decent amount of lasers...which we also need more of because they don't have a comparable damage to weight.

Figure the build do the math, please.

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 September 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

Cuz mechs like the Highlander could make a return if JJs didn't suck. Now I'm not 100% on that but I would hesitate to say that just because PPCs + Gauss is gone that assaults should be able to poptart.

Poptarting would commence with 2x HPPC + 2x AC/5 and be doing 5 more than they did in the olden days.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 September 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

Poptarting would commence with 2x HPPC + 2x AC/5 and be doing 5 more than they did in the olden days.

That's the concern.