113 replies to this topic

[Shade4x]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 October 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

Key word is BRAWLING. And that is if they can close before getting cored.

Brawling isn't always open in the solo queue. None of those brawling builds do 94 damage at 450-500 meters with decent falloff characteristics.

You really going to debate the difference between SRM alphas and laser gauss alphas? Completely different roles. Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you really not understand how this game is played?

You must be new, or really bad at building mech's, so let me help you. Brawling is based on DPS, where a "Striker" as some people call it (high alpha) is based soley on the Alpha. you can't brawl with a 96 point alpha like that. You can pop out, shoot it, and then hide and wait for your heat to go down. But if you want to beat a 96 point alpha, you can easily do it with nearly any mech above 60 tons. My Tempest runs 6 med lasers (30 damage) and 2 MRM 30's (60 damage) there is a 90 damage alpha on a 75 ton ECM mech going 73 kph. you can also do 3 ATM 12's under 270 is 108 and you can even run that on some mediums. The loyalty catapult can fit an MRM 90 with less heat then just 2 HLL. Not saying that the build isn't good, just that it's really not all that special, nor can it brawl. The people that pilot POS mech's like that are usually the guy's that try to fit every weapon in they can on an 90+ ton and hide the entire match, just so they die last, usually getting 200-300 damage games. Those are just bad players who get their team killed because they want to play an assault like a raven.

[Gas Guzzler]

Shade4x, on 25 October 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

You must be new, or really bad at building mech's, so let me help you. Brawling is based on DPS, where a "Striker" as some people call it (high alpha) is based soley on the Alpha. you can't brawl with a 96 point alpha like that. You can pop out, shoot it, and then hide and wait for your heat to go down. But if you want to beat a 96 point alpha, you can easily do it with nearly any mech above 60 tons. My Tempest runs 6 med lasers (30 damage) and 2 MRM 30's (60 damage) there is a 90 damage alpha on a 75 ton ECM mech going 73 kph. you can also do 3 ATM 12's under 270 is 108 and you can even run that on some mediums. The loyalty catapult can fit an MRM 90 with less heat then just 2 HLL. Not saying that the build isn't good, just that it's really not all that special, nor can it brawl. The people that pilot POS mech's like that are usually the guy's that try to fit every weapon in they can on an 90+ ton and hide the entire match, just so they die last, usually getting 200-300 damage games. Those are just bad players who get their team killed because they want to play an assault like a raven.

What was your point again?

My point was that the Dire's slow speed is offset by its unmatched killing capability. In other words, nothing can kill as well as it can in the typical MWO environment. I would never brawl with that build or any Dire in general so not sure why you think I would advocate that. Maybe you completely missed the context of the post I was responding to. Always a good idea to check that, lest you come off as kind of foolish.

I'm not sure if anything you said directly contradicts that, or shows why my view that the Dire's Gauss vomit loadout is the most deadly in the game would in anyway suggest that I am new or am bad at building mechs.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 25 October 2017 - 01:35 PM.

[Khobai]

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My point was that the Dire's slow speed is offset by its unmatched killing capability. In other words, nothing can kill as well as it can in the typical MWO environment.

thats simply not true. if the direwolf was the best mech at killing other mechs, its all anybody would ever use. which clearly isnt the case.

since the biggest weakness of the direwolf is its lack of speed, we have to assume thats the reason its not a more popular mech. Which makes sense: its too slow and it has too much exposure time when it pops out to fire.

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I'd like MASC to work longer than it does

20 seconds, for example. 7.5 seconds is just...mediocre.
I use it because it's hardwired, not because I want to.

The reticle shake is an issue too. Id be okay with no reticle shake and 15-20 seconds duration before leg damage.

Theres no good reason for the reticle to shake when MASC is engaged.

Edited by Khobai, 25 October 2017 - 01:39 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Also, thinking of the Dire as a "striker" just makes me chuckle.

Lol.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Shade4x, on 25 October 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

You must be new, or really bad at building mech's, so let me help you. Brawling is based on DPS, where a "Striker" as some people call it (high alpha) is based soley on the Alpha. you can't brawl with a 96 point alpha like that. You can pop out, shoot it, and then hide and wait for your heat to go down. But if you want to beat a 96 point alpha, you can easily do it with nearly any mech above 60 tons. My Tempest runs 6 med lasers (30 damage) and 2 MRM 30's (60 damage) there is a 90 damage alpha on a 75 ton ECM mech going 73 kph. you can also do 3 ATM 12's under 270 is 108 and you can even run that on some mediums. The loyalty catapult can fit an MRM 90 with less heat then just 2 HLL. Not saying that the build isn't good, just that it's really not all that special, nor can it brawl. The people that pilot POS mech's like that are usually the guy's that try to fit every weapon in they can on an 90+ ton and hide the entire match, just so they die last, usually getting 200-300 damage games. Those are just bad players who get their team killed because they want to play an assault like a raven.

No one is arguing the Whale can brawl, what is being argued is comparing a mid-range alpha to a brawling alpha (because most brawling weapons have spread). Brawling/spread weapons typically offer higher alphas. That said, for the range, the 2 ERLL/6 ERML/2 Gauss Whale alpha is unmatched at the range it is used at with the level of precision it has.

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 01:36 PM, said:

since the biggest weakness of the direwolf is its lack of speed, we have to assume thats the reason its not a more popular mech. Its too slow and the exposure time it gives enemies is too great when it pops out to fire.

It's because of the playstyle that comes with it, even when it was the best mech in the game most of the pilots hated using it. GMan is ironically one of those players which is why he built them wrong.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 October 2017 - 01:37 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 01:36 PM, said:

thats simply not true. if the direwolf was the best mech at killing other mechs, its all anybody would ever use. which clearly isnt the case.

since the biggest weakness of the direwolf is its lack of speed, we have to assume thats the reason its not a more popular mech.

Man I really have to spell every little ******* thing out for you don't I?

The firepower is the best at killing mechs. It is most efficient to put 94 damage into ONE location, and be able to do it from 450 meters, and maintain most of that fire power out to ~600m.

That doesn't mean that the Dire is the best mech in the game, obviously it has downsides in the non-perfect hardpoint placement, and its mobility, but that doesn't change that its Gauss vomit loadout is the most deadly loadout in its range bracket.

[Khobai]

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No one is arguing the Whale can brawl, what is being argued is comparing a mid-range alpha to a brawling alpha (because most brawling weapons have spread). Brawling/spread weapons typically offer higher alphas. That said, for the range, the 2 ERLL/6 ERML/2 Gauss Whale alpha is unmatched at the range it is used at with the level of precision it has.

Its only a matter of time before all lasers and maybe even gauss get linked in the same ghost heat group though. people are already pushing for that change. and thats the direction PGI has shown theyre going in by linking PPC/Gauss in the same group.

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The firepower is the best at killing mechs. It is most efficient to put 94 damage into ONE location, and be able to do it from 450 meters, and maintain most of that fire power out to ~600m.

because of the long beam durations on clan lasers, youre not putting 94 damage into one location unless someone is directly facing you and standing completely still. and if youre doing that in front of a direwolf, you DESERVE whats coming.

but like I said above, I think its days are numbered anyway.

Edited by Khobai, 25 October 2017 - 01:47 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

Its only a matter of time before all lasers and maybe even gauss get linked in the same ghost heat group though. people are already pushing for that change. and thats the direction PGI has shown theyre going in by linking PPC/Gauss in the same group.

Sounds like people are pushing for the Dire Wolf to be bad. You should oppose those people if you are interested in balance.

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

because of the long beam durations on clan lasers, youre not putting 94 damage into one location unless someone is directly facing you and standing completely still. and if youre doing that in front of a direwolf, you DESERVE whats coming.

Happens all the time. Assaults can't twist fast enough anyway.

[Kin3ticX]

Shade4x, on 25 October 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

You must be new, or really bad at building mech's, so let me help you.

You do realize in the current year + 1033 that people can see your KDR and avg match score publicly right?

[Khobai]

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Sounds like people are pushing for the Dire Wolf to be bad. You should oppose those people if you are interested in balance.

no lol, its hardly directed at the direwolf

people are sick of laser vomit in general: which is pretty much any clan mech that uses two large lasers and four to six medium lasers.

I cant say I entirely disagree with linking all lasers (or at least linking large and medium lasers) either though. laser vomit is !@#$ing easy mode. it doesnt get any easier than firing 6-8 lasers at 400m-600m and holding them on someone's mech.

Edited by Khobai, 25 October 2017 - 01:53 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

no lol, its hardly directed at the direwolf

people are sick of laser vomit in general: which is pretty much any clan mech that uses two large lasers and four to six medium lasers.

The huge alpha is what makes the Dire viable. Removing huge alphas directly nerfs the Dire.

I do agree though, it was nice when we had the PPC/Gauss option as well.

Though I must say, after the UAC5 velocity buff, the MAD-IIC-A feels pretty beastly. Go ahead, remove laser vomit from the game, it will just move to dakka or dakka/PPC. Spuds will still get rekt, and then call for more nerfs. Balance by bads.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 25 October 2017 - 01:52 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

I cant say I entirely disagree with linking all lasers (or at least linking large and medium lasers) either though. laser vomit is !@#$ing easy mode. it doesnt get any easier than firing 6-8 lasers at 400m-600m and holding them on someone's mech.

Before this it was "It doesn't get any easier than alphaing dual gauss and dual ER PPC and instantly destroying a component with perfect pinpoint convergence".

Its all BS.

[Khobai]

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The huge alpha is what makes the Dire viable. Removing huge alphas directly nerfs the Dire.

yes but huge alphas are also what PGI is trying to stop

why do you think they linked PPC/Gauss?

so yeah its a safe bet that a ghost heat adjustment is coming for lasers that at least links all large and medium lasers together

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Before this it was "It doesn't get any easier than alphaing dual gauss and dual ER PPC and instantly destroying a component with perfect pinpoint convergence".

Its all BS.

Nah that was much more difficult than than laser vomit. Because you had to deal with travel time on the projectiles.

But it was also much more lethal because it was PPFLD not damage over time like lasers.

The lethality of PPFLD is why that got nerfed.

Laser vomit will inevitably get nerfed because of its ease of accessibility and its recent proliferation due to everything else being nerfed lol

Edited by Khobai, 25 October 2017 - 01:58 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Kin3ticX, on 25 October 2017 - 01:47 PM, said:

You do realize in the current year + 1033 that people can see your KDR and avg match score publicly right?

I wonder whose opinion is more validated...
http://leaderboard.i...D%0AGas+Guzzler

Edited by Mcgral18, 25 October 2017 - 01:56 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 01:55 PM, said:

why do you think they linked PPC/Gauss?

Looking at old data? Listening to bad players complain about it being cancer 6 months after it was already out of style? Only PGI knows.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 01:55 PM, said:

Laser vomit will inevitably get nerfed because of its ease of accessibility and its recent proliferation due to everything else being nerfed lol

My solution to the recent proliferation is to unnerf its competitors. Ridiculous, amirite?

[Kin3ticX]

Mcgral18, on 25 October 2017 - 01:55 PM, said:

I wonder whose opinion is more validated...
http://leaderboard.i...D%0AGas+Guzzler

I mean, I wasn't planning to throw stats around, but when people start going "awww you must be new or just bad let me lecture you about whats what around here" I just sometimes go...

FACEDESK

[Khobai]

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My solution to the recent proliferation is to unnerf its competitors. Ridiculous, amirite?

Well I think they need to reduce the range on energy wepaons so ballistics and missiles can compete again.

Theyve made energy weapons way too long range and theres no reason to use ballistics and missiles with travel time when you can use laser vomit thats hitscan.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

Well I think they need to reduce the range on energy wepaons so ballistics and missiles can compete again.

Theyve made energy weapons way too long range and theres no reason to use ballistics and missiles with travel time when you can use laser vomit thats hitscan.

OR we sit and look at how the recent ballistic velocity buffs have made a difference. It takes balance shifts way more than a month to trickle down through the playerbase.

Also, if you haven't noticed, missiles are the premier brawling weapons nowadays. You want LRMs to be viable, they should remove indirect fire (unless tag/NARC is used) and buff their direct fire characteristics, imo, but that's a whole different discussion.

I mean, we have 6xUAC2 builds dominating in the long range bracket so I'm not sure I follow your logic.

[Khobai]

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I mean, we have 6xUAC2 builds dominating in the long range bracket so I'm not sure I follow your logic

UAC2s dont have low velocity though. Thats why they dont suffer as bad as other ballistics. their travel time is tolerable.

but most other ballistic and missile weapons really suffer compared to lasers because of the lack of velocity.

nerfing the UAC10's heat for no reason didnt exactly help either

Edited by Khobai, 25 October 2017 - 02:22 PM.