153 replies to this topic

[Bonzai VI]

I love that I'm a IS loyalist that's saying that Clans aren't that strong/pretty weak and I simply get ignored :')

It's always the Clan players that say that Clans not OP! They're obviously biased! /sarcasm

In this community it's normal to twist the facts in such ways that one is always right, no matter what happens.
It's not normal to be objective. That's really sad.

Edited by Bonzai VI, 14 November 2017 - 09:42 AM.

[Roland09]

Pariah Devalis, on 14 November 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

Now why would he do that? That would first involve he overcome the Backfire effect.

He has already rooted it deep within his perspective of reality that the problem is tech based, as opposed to anything else. His grasp of reality in scouting hinges entirely on the concept that there are numerous impossible to overcome advantages that the Clans have. [...]

Oh, not at all.

I am not of the opinion that Clans enjoy unsurmountable advantages, especially in scouting. I do not understand why you would come to this view.

Bonzai VI, on 14 November 2017 - 09:02 AM, said:

[...] and you're talking nonsense.

Why nonsense?

[Pariah Devalis]

Roland09, on 14 November 2017 - 10:42 AM, said:

Oh, not at all.

I am not of the opinion that Clans enjoy unsurmountable advantages, especially in scouting. I do not understand why you would come to this view.



Why nonsense?

The reason why is that solutions were offered and were met with, from you and others, attempts at refuting them. Despite being valid pieces of information.

What if I told you the best way to counter Clan advantages would be to stop trying to beat them at their own game? IS have superior armor quirks, generally have superior hitboxes that promote armor rolling, their SRMs and ACs are far more accurate and either deal more effective damage as a result, or straight up deal more damage, period. They also run cooler on a per trigger pull basis.

They do have downsides that the Clans do not. However the Clan advantages are not as easily leveraged in scouting mode as a result of the speeds and engagement ranges. Higher heat curves due to hotter weapons, similar dissipation rates in scouting mode due to a need to overwhelm armor quirks with firepower at the cost of cooling, wider spread on brawling weapons, and lower access to pinpoint damage placement are all things that IS pilots need to consider. In the case of laserboats like the Nova, heat issues compound even more than normal, and burn duration needs to be considered. If the beam has a duration, that is forced facetime that Clan mech needs to have, and a window to spread the damage being inflicted by the IS pilot. A 50% larger alpha is worth a hell of a lot less than the alternative if the alpha is spread across three or four armor sections, when the smaller alpha hits only one or two.

By all means, the IS holds many massive advantages against the Clans in a brawl. In fact, with the fixed engines most Clan mechs have, many of the current IS mediums move slightly faster, even. The presence of structure and armor quirks means that legging is the preferred way to off IS mechs, making XL engines significantly safer for IS mechs in scouting. This gives speed, and, in turn, the ability to outpace or outmaneuver the Clan mechs in order to control the flow of the fight, somewhat.

Further, there are more dropship diving options available to the IS, due to extremely fast ECM capable lights. It's virtually impossible to stop a dedicated IS dive team as a Clan player since you can't easily locate them in the first place, and have very little warning or opportunity to kill them when you do. I mean, I hate the concept of diving, and it gives bad rewards, but it is there as a solid IS option.

Concerns about legs exploding instantly is about equal with focused fire from both techlines. Clan vs IS and IS vs Clans, if two mechs focus one leg, expect it to explode pretty much instantly. Regardless of tech. It isn't worth whining about because it's all things equal, here.

That said, I generally have no unusual issue fighting IS mechs with Clan mechs in scouting. It all boils down to people focusing fire and aiming for legs. It feels incredibly equal. It's just that it should, in theory, actually be easier for the IS to do the job than Clans. Further, since it is all about legging, and since the 55 ton options we have and will have eventually actually bring less firepower and larger legs, it wouldn't hurt to add them back to the list of mechs the Clans can take for the mode. As it is, there are better options, but it is always nice to have options, regardless.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 14 November 2017 - 11:10 AM.

[Bonzai VI]

@Pariah Devalis

Diving is also an option for the clans, just take 4 arctic cheetahs, skill speed tweak and off you go.

@Roland09

I'm actually surprised you responded, didn't really expect it^^

Free CASE is much less than a gimmick, there's a reason no IS pilot that has half a brain equips it. It's not valuable enough, the component still falls off. If it would block the explode damage alltogether than I'd say that's unfair, but with it being simply restricted i don't think thats important.
(Your ammo shouldn't be full when a leg falls of.)

Well, the heat sinks are the primary factor why clans are so strong.^^

And now to what I wanted to discuss: SRMs.
The tonnage argument is getting annoying. C-SRM6+Art weigh 2.5, IS-SRM6+Art weigh 4 tons. It's not double, not even close.

Hm, I think I'll just quote what I said earlier since it doesn't seem you wanted to read it yourself:

Bonzai VI, on 13 November 2017 - 04:02 PM, said:

That's the problem, now you've got the equipment you wanted. But what now?
Wanna put in some lasers? Then you're running hotter and you've got massive facetime.
Add more SRM's? Ghost heat won't let you. You also cannot put a bigger engine in nor equipment that's really useful.
SRM's are light on clan-side yes, but you've got plenty cons outweighing that.

That's why I talked about nonsense, I don't like when people don't read what I wrote and then comes a question that I already answered. Sorry bout that :')

Edited by Bonzai VI, 14 November 2017 - 11:22 AM.

[Roland09]

Pariah Devalis, on 14 November 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

The reason why is that solutions were offered and were met with, from you and others, attempts at refuting them. Despite being valid pieces of information.

What if I told you the best way to counter Clan advantages would be to stop trying to beat them at their own game? [...]

That said, I generally have no unusual issue fighting IS mechs with Clan mechs in scouting. It all boils down to people focusing fire and aiming for legs. It feels incredibly equal. It's just that it should, in theory, actually be easier for the IS to do the job than Clans.

I get the feeling you may be confusing me with somebody else. Specifically, remind me where I refuted whatever "solution" was brought forward, to which problem in scouting?

What if you told me...? I would agree, in principle. You accurately describe the IS's strong points. The point you are missing is that (AC20/SRM-) brawling is pretty much the only game the IS can bring to scouting, since the Clans out-perform the IS in every other move.

(Running and smoke diving? True, IS can bring Pirate's Bane, but once caught, that thing is gone, whereas Clans can bring Ice Ferret. Have fun killing that in in a few seconds while the dropship counter is running to zero, let alone two, three or four of these.

Range game? Kiting? These are not viable options for IS vs. Clans in scouting. Mischief SC was pointing out some tactics and builds Clanners might use along those lines in this very thread.)

So, the advice should actually be: Clanners, don't play the game the IS very much wants to force upon you. Or if you do, at least come prepared.

The rest, as you write, comes down to focus fire and coordination.

I would like to remind you that it is Clan players starting these threads (similar to this one) about a perceived "scouting imbalance".

[Roland09]

Bonzai VI, on 14 November 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

And now to what I wanted to discuss: SRMs. The tonnage argument is getting annoying. C-SRM6+Art weigh 2.5, IS-SRM6+Art weigh 4 tons. It's not double, not even close.

Ask your favourite hair-spray dealer: 4 tons of hair-spray is pretty damn near close to twice 2,5 tons of hair-spray.

Also, note that in my earlier post, I was not saying Clans can bring flat out 2x the salvo of SRMs, I was saying 50% extra.

[Bonzai VI]

@Roland09

RIP me, read that wrong^^

[Roland09]

Peace...

[MischiefSC]

Clans absolutely can dominate in scouting. I know we did it plenty.

However it's more work than is required to dominate with a Clan deck in Invasion. In Invasion you pretty much just need to pick a decent mech, show up and not totally derp. You've got bigger alpha, more range, better cooling, better mobility and thanks to CXL great survivability.

Part of the issue is that people are used to being able to coast and then go scouting where balance is really tight. Use range, if you're going to brawl take a great brawler - you can do 12ERSMLs on a Nova and fit 4 LMGs and 12 ton of ammo - which is all you need for a scout match. A lot of amazing HBK IIC options; 6 MPLs being one of them. Most maps you want to have a couple people with a 2 HLL, 2CERML setup.

However as a given rule a Huntsman with 4 SRM6A and 4 lasers (I do 2 MPLs, 2 HSMLs but depends) is an exceptional Clan brawler.

The biggest problem Clans are having with scouting is you actually have to try to win scouting in Clans. That's not an experience Clans usually have in Invasion.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

MischiefSC, on 14 November 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

Clans absolutely can dominate in scouting. I know we did it plenty.

However it's more work than is required to dominate with a Clan deck in Invasion. In Invasion you pretty much just need to pick a decent mech, show up and not totally derp. You've got bigger alpha, more range, better cooling, better mobility and thanks to CXL great survivability.

Part of the issue is that people are used to being able to coast and then go scouting where balance is really tight. Use range, if you're going to brawl take a great brawler - you can do 12ERSMLs on a Nova and fit 4 LMGs and 12 ton of ammo - which is all you need for a scout match. A lot of amazing HBK IIC options; 6 MPLs being one of them. Most maps you want to have a couple people with a 2 HLL, 2CERML setup.

However as a given rule a Huntsman with 4 SRM6A and 4 lasers (I do 2 MPLs, 2 HSMLs but depends) is an exceptional Clan brawler.

The biggest problem Clans are having with scouting is you actually have to try to win scouting in Clans. That's not an experience Clans usually have in Invasion.

Which mech has bigger alpha, more range, better cooling, better mobility, and better durability than lets say a Bushwacker-p1 with 4ASRM6 and 2 RL20s? I know not a single Clan mech below 65 tons has equal durability to a Bushwacker, much less better.

Out of the builds you posted:

12 ERSL + 4 LMG Nova: Less range, longer duration, higher alpha (ghost heat triggered), worse cooling, less tanky, slower, more DPS
6 MPL HBK IIC: More range, longer duration, lower alpha, worse cooling, less tanky, faster, less DPS
2HLL + 2 ERML HBK IIC: More range, longer duration, lower alpha, better cooling, less tanky, faster, less DPS
Huntsman 4 ASRM6 + 2 MPL + 2 HSL (what is with that combination of lasers?): equal range (give or take the lasers), Longer duration, higher alpha, worse cooling, less tanky, slower, more DPS

Out of all those only the Nova gets higher sustained DPS, none are as tanky, the only one with better cooling is the very under gunned 2HLL+2ERML build, only one has a higher alpha that doesn't instantly overheat you if you alpha it, all of them have durations, and I'm not even counting the dual RL20s in any of the Bushwacker's stats since its only one shot but 80 damage can make a huge difference in practice.


Once again the issue isn't if clans *can* dominate in scouting, no one cares about the ifs and cans here, objectively speaking the Clans just don't have the stats required to consistently win meta vs meta, you're always fighting at a disadvantage as Clans in scouting. Most people talk only about brawler vs brawler, but also when it comes to fast mechs assassin wipes the floor with Vipers and Ice Ferrets, with lights Wolfhound demolishes the Cheetah, with smoke diving the Locust doesn't even have competition with its stealth armor and 150kph+ before tweak.

[Bonzai VI]

The Hunchback is actually cooling much better than your Bushwacker^^
(No idea bout the other builds, don't do small laser mainweapon or heavy lasers.)

BTW, what engines are you putting in your Bushwacker?
A 280 brings you up to 82.5, and if that's an argument for you that you're faster...^^

Sustained DPS is not that good to look at, when you've got builds that have different weapons like the HBK-IIC-A with 2 HLL and 2 ERML (urk...) you won't/shouldn't fire the ERML while your HLL are on cooldown, but the mechlab thinks that you will fire your weapons as soon as they are ready, no matter what.

As soon as you are in a brawl, circling around a building you've got a moment that the mechlab cannot calculate.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Bonzai VI, on 14 November 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

The Hunchback is actually cooling much better than your Bushwacker^^
(No idea bout the other builds, don't do small laser mainweapon or heavy lasers.)

BTW, what engines are you putting in your Bushwacker?
A 280 brings you up to 82.5, and if that's an argument for you that you're faster...^^

Sustained DPS is not that good to look at, when you've got builds that have different weapons like the HBK-IIC-A with 2 HLL and 2 ERML (urk...) you won't/shouldn't fire the ERML while your HLL are on cooldown, but the mechlab thinks that you will fire your weapons as soon as they are ready, no matter what.

As soon as you are in a brawl, circling around a building you've got a moment that the mechlab cannot calculate.

The 2HLL+2ERML build was the one that I said had better cooling in my post. Also all the mechs are within 81-88 kph anyway, so the speed doesn't matter much, but I include it just for the sake of comparing the builds, LFE 280 is what is in my Bushwacker. Also I was basing the comparisons off of total build DPS, not sustained.

Cover really is a big boost to the higher alpha strike mechs, which the Bushwacker wins in in all but one case, as with cover you can make it be based off trades rather than DPS, resulting in whoever has the highest alpha + armor win.

[Bonzai VI]

Dakota1000, on 14 November 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

The 2HLL+2ERML build was the one that I said had better cooling in my post.

Yes, and I said that the 6 MPL is also running cooler, nothing else. (Or at least meant it that way)

Dakota1000, on 14 November 2017 - 03:12 PM, said:

Out of all those only the Nova gets higher sustained DPS

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Bonzai VI, on 14 November 2017 - 04:15 PM, said:

Yes, and I said that the 6 MPL is also running cooler, nothing else. (Or at least meant it that way)

Comparison zone was the bit right before that sentence.

6MPL was running hotter when I compared it, here's the builds I am using for reference:

HBK: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...33239438351373e
BSW: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a04933f2a303ee6

Lower total DPS, lower sustained DPS, lower alpha, lower cooling efficiency, lower etc.

[Bonzai VI]

I've put a 255 in the HBK-IIC and then have 2 heatsinks more in it.

Thing is, your Bushwacker only has 1 heatsink. You'll be able to shoot 5 alphas till you're hot, but after that you won't really cool down
The Hunchback with 14 external heatsinks will also be able to shoot 5 alphas, but will cool down fast enough to continue alphaing. (is that a word? if it wasn't it now is.^^)

BTW, Hunchback does 5 alphas a 42 pinpoint 0.9 (0.81 w tech tree) duration, Bushwacker does 5 alphas 51.6 splat. Dunno bout you but the Hunchback sounds jucier to me


The effective DPS is much higher in the Hunchback, (cooling efficiency doesn't really mean much, just gives one a general idea) especially since SRMs are spread and MPL are hitscan.

The Bushwacker will definitely work better when being shot at, carrying SRMs and all, but if the Hunchback isn't getting focused he will quickly focus you/one of your guys down and will be able to continue his firing after a kill.

They've got different roles and different weapons. Pretty hard to actually compare them^^

Edit: When I think about the two builds I visualize the scenarios completely different,
The Bushwacker wants to get <100 meters, using cover and shooting the enemy in the face while torso twisting incoming damage.
The Hunchback wants to be at ~350 dmg (max optimal range) killing you before you come close and then may be able to win the brawl if he did enough damage beforehand using his immense heat capacity.

In their territory, either of those will win, I just search for a way so my 'Mech can still fulfill his job when he's in a fight that's not in his favor.

Edited by Bonzai VI, 14 November 2017 - 05:24 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Bonzai VI, on 14 November 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

I've put a 255 in the HBK-IIC and then have 2 heatsinks more in it.

Thing is, your Bushwacker only has 1 heatsink. You'll be able to shoot 5 alphas till you're hot, but after that you won't really cool down
The Hunchback with 14 external heatsinks will also be able to shoot 5 alphas, but will cool down fast enough to continue alphaing. (is that a word? if it wasn't it now is.^^)

BTW, Hunchback does 5 alphas a 42 pinpoint 0.9 (0.81 w tech tree) duration, Bushwacker does 5 alphas 51.6 splat. Dunno bout you but the Hunchback sounds jucier to me


The effective DPS is much higher in the Hunchback, (cooling efficiency doesn't really mean much, just gives one a general idea) especially since SRMs are spread and MPL are hitscan.

The Bushwacker will definitely work better when being shot at, carrying SRMs and all, but if the Hunchback isn't getting focused he will quickly focus you/one of your guys down and will be able to continue his firing after a kill.

They've got different roles and different weapons. Pretty hard to actually compare them^^

Edit: When I think about the two builds I visualize the scenarios completely different,
The Bushwacker wants to get <100 meters, using cover and shooting the enemy in the face while torso twisting incoming damage.
The Hunchback wants to be at ~350 dmg (max optimal range) killing you before you come close and then may be able to win the brawl if he did enough damage beforehand using his immense heat capacity.

In their territory, either of those will win, I just search for a way so my 'Mech can still fulfill his job when he's in a fight that's not in his favor.

When I'm comparing I make up likely scenarios while balancing out which one is easier to have occur. Many times on many maps its very easy to just pop up right at the enemy in your optimal range through using cover and enemies have no chances of really kiting away from you if they also have to stop to take shots, especially 0.81 second duration shots on a mech that only moves about 5kph faster and has slower accel and decel. Bushwacker moves about 23 meters every second, so just in the time it took to aim up and take the shot it has moved 23 M closer to you and you only have a 60m (lets say 100m if you're not firing in optimal) range advantage on the enemy. If you drop down to the 255 you're moving the same speed as the Bushwacker (well, 0.1kph higher) I just don't see the build being able to effectively kite for even long enough to make up for the armor quirks + the 80 damage rocket launcher "equalizer" which actually has a higher range than the MPL optimal by 30m.

For an unupgraded Bushwacker it takes 24 seconds to cool off entirely. A Hunchback IIC-A with its 24 heatsinks takes about 17 seconds to cool off, 7 second difference to cool back down to zero for 13 more heatsinks. It takes a Bushwacker 7.44 seconds to cool off to 0 from one alpha, and takes the Hunchback IIC-A 6.95 seconds to cool off for its one alpha. So about a half second difference between the two when it comes to who can fire its next alpha after hitting 100% heat, which once override is on and people are actually fighting ends up not mattering since it doesn't even heat you up enough to cause structural damage firing that half second sooner.

High heatsink counts really get balanced out quickly by how much more heat you generate. 6 MPL Hunchback IIC has 78% more heat per alpha, and only 90% more cooling, it actually has 5 seconds less time before overheat compared to the Bushwacker.

I mostly prefer the Bushwacker over the Hunchback IIC-A, especially in a brawl, having played both of them and done well in both. The Hunchback is so blocky that sections can be easily torn off, legs included, even when faced with ASRM6 spread, at most only really spreading 10-20% of the damage to adjacent zones. The 0.81 second duration can still be spread around by the enemy, resulting in it losing about the same amount of damage to adjacent zones when fighting medium mechs. I don't find the small range advantage to nearly make up for the higher fragility, lower damage per second, lower alpha, and relatively worse cooling. At best the range might let you get in one free alpha on the enemy before they close, but due to the heat of it you won't have cooled it off before they close, and thus you start the brawl at a heat disadvantage and are disadvantaged in health by the enemy's first strike even after accounting for your first hit. Really though the RL20s counters the first strike entirely if we factor that in.



The thing is that the Hunchback IIC-A works a whole lot better in quickplay compared to scouting, as it gets more time to use its range in a mode where people don't push as often, but without its range advantage the Bushwacker shines. The Bushwacker is only held back in skirmish by its range disadvantage. I remember queuing up for scouting with my team but the matchmaker glitched and we ended up in a Skirmish match, but we flanked and did out normal scouting brawl routine. Our team died very quickly to the enemy for whatever reason, like less than 2 minutes of contact, but we continued our flank and ran through enemy after enemy, taking up over 8 kills between the 4 of us while running only medium mechs against multiple heavies and assaults. I find it odd that more teams don't just push like they did back in beta, its an incredibly powerful tactic, usually only being stopped by dedicated firing line teams.

I wouldn't really know how to balance the two mechs out, as they're both balanced in their own game modes, but when they fight in scouting the odds are on the Bushwacker's side.

[/novel]

Edited by Dakota1000, 14 November 2017 - 06:11 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Dakota1000, on 14 November 2017 - 03:12 PM, said:

Which mech has bigger alpha, more range, better cooling, better mobility, and better durability than lets say a Bushwacker-p1 with 4ASRM6 and 2 RL20s? I know not a single Clan mech below 65 tons has equal durability to a Bushwacker, much less better.

Out of the builds you posted:

12 ERSL + 4 LMG Nova: Less range, longer duration, higher alpha (ghost heat triggered), worse cooling, less tanky, slower, more DPS
6 MPL HBK IIC: More range, longer duration, lower alpha, worse cooling, less tanky, faster, less DPS
2HLL + 2 ERML HBK IIC: More range, longer duration, lower alpha, better cooling, less tanky, faster, less DPS
Huntsman 4 ASRM6 + 2 MPL + 2 HSL (what is with that combination of lasers?): equal range (give or take the lasers), Longer duration, higher alpha, worse cooling, less tanky, slower, more DPS

Out of all those only the Nova gets higher sustained DPS, none are as tanky, the only one with better cooling is the very under gunned 2HLL+2ERML build, only one has a higher alpha that doesn't instantly overheat you if you alpha it, all of them have durations, and I'm not even counting the dual RL20s in any of the Bushwacker's stats since its only one shot but 80 damage can make a huge difference in practice.


Once again the issue isn't if clans *can* dominate in scouting, no one cares about the ifs and cans here, objectively speaking the Clans just don't have the stats required to consistently win meta vs meta, you're always fighting at a disadvantage as Clans in scouting. Most people talk only about brawler vs brawler, but also when it comes to fast mechs assassin wipes the floor with Vipers and Ice Ferrets, with lights Wolfhound demolishes the Cheetah, with smoke diving the Locust doesn't even have competition with its stealth armor and 150kph+ before tweak.

The point being that if all you do in scouting is brawl, you're doing it wrong.

The Bushie is a solid 55 tonner. The Wolfhound does NOT beat an ACH though. Not since the laser nerfs.

2hlls 2xcermls has like 4 shots to heatcap. It's very heat efficient. It can easily leg a Bushie before the Bushie has moved 90m.

However smoke diving locusts are broke AF.

Clans typically have a higher burst damage not including the very iffy RLs also, range. Get that first shot in before closing. Also, bump n jump.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

MischiefSC, on 15 November 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:

The point being that if all you do in scouting is brawl, you're doing it wrong.

The Bushie is a solid 55 tonner. The Wolfhound does NOT beat an ACH though. Not since the laser nerfs.

2hlls 2xcermls has like 4 shots to heatcap. It's very heat efficient. It can easily leg a Bushie before the Bushie has moved 90m.

However smoke diving locusts are broke AF.

Clans typically have a higher burst damage not including the very iffy RLs also, range. Get that first shot in before closing. Also, bump n jump.

2HLL+2ERML has a huge reload time and long duration though, those 4 shots take over 20 seconds to fire off. Also how does the Wolfhound not beat the Cheetah? Wolfhound's MPLs got a *buff* compared to the other medium and small lasers while CSPLs got absolutely destroyed. It used to be closer to balanced between the two when the Wolfhound had its MPLs and tanking while the Cheetah had its shorter range but lighter CSPLs with same alpha and was less tanky but also had ecm and jump jets.

Now what is a Cheetah with 6 CSPLs and their 24 damage alpha or 6 CERSLs and their IS ERLL duration going to do against a Wolfhound that fires off 36 damage in half a second, and has around 100 CT health, and good hitboxes for damage spreading?

Really, I'm honestly curious, what build are you running on a Cheetah that beats a Wolfhound?

Basically my point is that the IS has advantages in more than just brawl vs brawl, for example assassin vs the clan fast mediums (Though the arctic wolf *may* bring balance to the force, it seems like it just won't have the durability with those bad hitboxes to really confront an assassin), and the currently contested question of Wolfhound vs Cheetah, that and absolutely broken smoke jumping for when the IS just wants to guarantee a win instead of fight it out.

[MischiefSC]

Dakota1000, on 15 November 2017 - 10:07 AM, said:

2HLL+2ERML has a huge reload time and long duration though, those 4 shots take over 20 seconds to fire off. Also how does the Wolfhound not beat the Cheetah? Wolfhound's MPLs got a *buff* compared to the other medium and small lasers while CSPLs got absolutely destroyed. It used to be closer to balanced between the two when the Wolfhound had its MPLs and tanking while the Cheetah had its shorter range but lighter CSPLs with same alpha and was less tanky but also had ecm and jump jets.

Now what is a Cheetah with 6 CSPLs and their 24 damage alpha or 6 CERSLs and their IS ERLL duration going to do against a Wolfhound that fires off 36 damage in half a second, and has around 100 CT health, and good hitboxes for damage spreading?

Really, I'm honestly curious, what build are you running on a Cheetah that beats a Wolfhound?

Basically my point is that the IS has advantages in more than just brawl vs brawl, for example assassin vs the clan fast mediums (Though the arctic wolf *may* bring balance to the force, it seems like it just won't have the durability with those bad hitboxes to really confront an assassin), and the currently contested question of Wolfhound vs Cheetah, that and absolutely broken smoke jumping for when the IS just wants to guarantee a win instead of fight it out.

Almost anything, tbh. The Wolfhound was strong with ermls and poking. IS MPLs are a huge steaming pile of ****. An ACH with MGs and CERMLs even is better. More range and MGs are hitscan. 6 cersmls even is better.

A flamer, some MGs and ersmls is also a nasty thing to do to people.

End of the day though you don't want to take a light. You want 2 or 3 hbk/nva/hmn. One or two viper or Ice Ferret (Viper, really).

One or two set for range, the rest brawl. Make sure the range one has decent heat management.

50 or 100pts on legs before you close and you've clinched it. At that point it's just math.

[Bonzai VI]

@Dakota1000

Just jumping in to say: Firing 4 shots with HLL takes 28 seconds of cooldown, it takes another 6.2 seconds for the duration (without quirks)
He needs 34 seconds to get hot. That is to heatefficient if you can't deal enough damage in the meantime.
(And HLL are certainly no DPS weapon)
With quirks it would aproxemately be ~26 seconds cooldown and 5.58 duration.
Thats still ~31.6 seconds.

@MischiefSC

Well, tbh MGs are flat out broken the way they are now.
But the IS-MPL works surprisingly well in scouting, it's maybe the only place they work since range is no problem there.^^

And shooting legs is still inefficient. Just because people don't even try to roll the damage doesn't mean it's good.