179 replies to this topic

[Mole]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 November 2017 - 01:55 PM, said:

You would be surprised at how vacant teammates can be. They might be right next to you, but they often don't notice you getting shot unless you either scream on VoiP or survive for a solid 60 seconds or so then they might happen to notice. And even then, you have to rely on the typical PUG to be able to hit a light? That can be a tall order.

I bet my top dollar though that if the light in question hears a laser graze over his armor he will bug out before an actual meaningful hit can be landed. If he doesn't, he wasn't much of a light pilot to begin with.

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 November 2017 - 01:55 PM, said:

You would be surprised at how vacant teammates can be. They might be right next to you, but they often don't notice you getting shot unless you either scream on VoiP or survive for a solid 60 seconds or so then they might happen to notice. And even then, you have to rely on the typical PUG to be able to hit a light? That can be a tall order.

To be fair, my experience is that 99% of the time someone asking for help does so badly in the first place: "help, someone get this commando off me!"

Who are you? What mech are you in? Where are you relative to me? Generally, I'll take a quick look at my minimap and look in my field of view, but unless this is happening near me and is obvious, chances are I'm not going to know the answers to these questions and be unable to help.

Then... Yeah. I dunno how often I want regular puggies pfiring at a commando pressed against my legs. If nothing else at all is an option, ok, but I bet my teammates take my legs before they take the commando

[Gas Guzzler]

Mole, on 27 November 2017 - 02:01 PM, said:

I bet my top dollar though that if the light in question hears a laser graze over his armor he will bug out before an actual meaningful hit can be landed. If he doesn't, he wasn't much of a light pilot to begin with.

I hope that too, but when I'm an assault and come just shy of removing half of said light mech and he/she sticks around to make me waste more time where I could be deleting the other team's assaults its super annoying. Its like.. don't let your own poor decisions ALSO ruin my game. Lol.

Wintersdark, on 27 November 2017 - 02:04 PM, said:

To be fair, my experience is that 99% of the time someone asking for help does so badly in the first place: "help, someone get this commando off me!"

Well the more annoying part is when someone less than 100m away has there thumb up their *** and can't hear the commotion going on right next to them.

[Ukos]

Looks like another scissors is fine nerf paper argument from our rock like assault pilots.

The lights are fine please don't enlarge any more of them you have already destroyed the joy of being a wolfhound pilot and several other lights.

Assault pilots just have to learn to fight as part of a team and not drop with the belief that they are the only important part of their team. Assaults and heavies get ripped to pieces by good light and fast medium pilots when they over extend or get left behind because they chose to exchange speed for weapons or mounted nothing but high mounted or range limited weapons.

A good light pilot will exploit this to help their team you decry it as unfair and face/leg humping yes this is unrealistic compared to tabletop but why shouldn't the lights exploit what advantage they can after all it only takes one good hit to disable them.

Light on light although it can be fun is a waste of a fast light mech and better suited to an escort light such as the kitfoxes and adders as its not cost effective and heavier mechs always seem to intrude whereas you can tear into a slow non agile / alert heavy or assault and provide more benefit by either disabling or tieing up the heavier mech which gives your team an advantage.

Mechs don't need re-scaling other than maybe some of the giant lights being reduced in size again. What is needed is more situational awareness from the pilots of the slow and big mechs so you can try to anticipate how a light will try to attack, worst thing to fight as a light is a genned up and ready opponent.

For those who decry ninja or rogue like attacks from lights what do you expect when you can carry weapons almost as heavy as a light that they will stand toe to toe with you and brawl?

[Gas Guzzler]

Ukos, on 27 November 2017 - 02:12 PM, said:

Looks like another scissors is fine nerf paper argument from our rock like assault pilots.

If assaults are rock, then all mechs in the game are scissors.

[Mole]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 November 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

If assaults are rock, then all mechs in the game are scissors.

If we're going to run with this analogy, I'd say Assaults are rock, slower mediums and heavies being scissors because that's what the rocks are good at smashing, and lights and fast mediums being paper because they backstab the crap out of the cumbersome rock but have a much more difficult time doing it to the relatively more maneuverable heavies and mediums.

It's still not a perfect metaphor though.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mole, on 27 November 2017 - 03:16 PM, said:

If we're going to run with this analogy, I'd say Assaults are rock, slower mediums and heavies being scissors because that's what the rocks are good at smashing, and lights and fast mediums being paper because they backstab the crap out of the cumbersome rock but have a much more difficult time doing it to the relatively more maneuverable heavies and mediums.

It's still not a perfect metaphor though.

Most of the time, the backstab thing doesn't work that well unless you are very isolated OR they catch you in a position where you have to deal with both the backstabber as well as other bigger mechs that can shoot you from another direction, because its just too damn hard to mitigate damage coming from two very different directions.

[JigglyMoobs]

Ukos, on 27 November 2017 - 02:12 PM, said:

Looks like another scissors is fine nerf paper argument from our rock like assault pilots.

The lights are fine please don't enlarge any more of them you have already destroyed the joy of being a wolfhound pilot and several other lights.

Assault pilots just have to learn to fight as part of a team and not drop with the belief that they are the only important part of their team. Assaults and heavies get ripped to pieces by good light and fast medium pilots when they over extend or get left behind because they chose to exchange speed for weapons or mounted nothing but high mounted or range limited weapons.

A good light pilot will exploit this to help their team you decry it as unfair and face/leg humping yes this is unrealistic compared to tabletop but why shouldn't the lights exploit what advantage they can after all it only takes one good hit to disable them.

Light on light although it can be fun is a waste of a fast light mech and better suited to an escort light such as the kitfoxes and adders as its not cost effective and heavier mechs always seem to intrude whereas you can tear into a slow non agile / alert heavy or assault and provide more benefit by either disabling or tieing up the heavier mech which gives your team an advantage.

Mechs don't need re-scaling other than maybe some of the giant lights being reduced in size again. What is needed is more situational awareness from the pilots of the slow and big mechs so you can try to anticipate how a light will try to attack, worst thing to fight as a light is a genned up and ready opponent.

For those who decry ninja or rogue like attacks from lights what do you expect when you can carry weapons almost as heavy as a l

Actually I love to pilot lights and love to fight assaults in them. I also love to play assaults and when I do I usually 0lay the row of the charge leading assault....

I don't think there is any problem when lights fight against assaults using their respective advantages.

However, when this happen it should be a good fight.

The problem discussed here has nothing to do with assault to light balance in general, but a specific situation brought about by pitch limits and geometry mismatch that allows a light to simply stick itself to an assault leg and stay there humping, with the assault not being able to do anything about it, even with arm weapons since the light is not visible or barely visible from the cockpit.

This seems simply lame and doesn't belong in a combat game.

[JigglyMoobs]

Mole, on 27 November 2017 - 03:16 PM, said:

If we're going to run with this analogy, I'd say Assaults are rock, slower mediums and heavies being scissors because that's what the rocks are good at smashing, and lights and fast mediums being paper because they backstab the crap out of the cumbersome rock but have a much more difficult time doing it to the relatively more maneuverable heavies and mediums.

It's still not a perfect metaphor though.

Actually, the largest ballidtics assaults are rocks against lighter assaults and laser vomit boats, they are in turn countered by jump sniping heavies and focus fire. Jump sniping heavies are countered by fast brawlers, including brawling assaults. Those are also really good against lights and mediums, especially when they are armed with/ pulse lasers.

Light mechs are actually counters for isolated LRM boats. Light mechs in packs counter isolated sniping heavies and heavy assaults. Light mechs boating machine guns can individually counter stripped mechs with pretty stunning efficiency. Light mechs harass and distract firing lines, spot for lrms and can protect against light and medium harassers.

Fast mediums.......Etc etc.

The mech uses in this game are highly situational, like multidimensional rock paper scissors with a messy cross diagram of counters drawn between dozens of niche players in hundreds of different situations.

In other words, not like rock paper scissors at all once you dig deeper.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 27 November 2017 - 04:51 PM.

[JigglyMoobs]

Wintersdark, on 27 November 2017 - 02:04 PM, said:

To be fair, my experience is that 99% of the time someone asking for help does so badly in the first place: "help, someone get this commando off me!"

Who are you? What mech are you in? Where are you relative to me? Generally, I'll take a quick look at my minimap and look in my field of view, but unless this is happening near me and is obvious, chances are I'm not going to know the answers to these questions and be unable to help.

Then... Yeah. I dunno how often I want regular puggies pfiring at a commando pressed against my legs. If nothing else at all is an option, ok, but I bet my teammates take my legs before they take the commando

So I've noticed these two exact issues.

The other day at match start I go on VoIP: if a commando is humping your leg give your grid and who are you and we'll come and help.

Next thing I know Cyclops follows instructions and we eliminate his parasitic commando together.

Thing is, I had to jump from a ledge, find his talking icon, and help him. He had at least 3 teammates directly next to him who were completely oblivious to his very clearly enunciated call for help over VoIP and the commando a fixed to their teammate's leg not 50m from them.

None of them had VoIP turned off so you can't blame that.

Few maps later the same thing, except this time two teammates just died, silently without saying anything at all. Not on VoIP, not on chat, not even after they were specifically told that help would come if they ask.

And yeah, when ive asked for help with lights sometimes I get lrms mschinegun or lasers to my mech from my own team.

TO improve the qp experience we need to take into account that teammates are not infallible in this game. The reality is they are often the very opposite of infallible.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 27 November 2017 - 05:04 PM.

[Khobai]

JigglyMoobs, on 27 November 2017 - 04:46 PM, said:

Actually, the largest ballidtics assaults are rocks against lighter assaults and laser vomit boats, they are in turn countered by jump sniping heavies and focus fire. Jump sniping heavies are countered by fast brawlers, including brawling assaults. Those are also really good against lights and mediums, especially when they are armed with/ pulse lasers.

Light mechs are actually counters for isolated LRM boats. Light mechs in packs counter isolated sniping heavies and heavy assaults. Light mechs boating machine guns can individually counter stripped mechs with pretty stunning efficiency. Light mechs harass and distract firing lines, spot for lrms and can protect against light and medium harassers.

Fast mediums.......Etc etc.

The mech uses in this game are highly situational, like multidimensional rock paper scissors with a messy cross diagram of counters drawn between dozens of niche players in hundreds of different situations.

In other words, not like rock paper scissors at all once you dig deeper.

but then what counters fast heavies?

it seems like nothing counters fast heavies...

they counter assaults, they counter mediums, they counter lights. they counter jumpsnipers, they counter lrm boats.

Edited by Khobai, 27 November 2017 - 05:05 PM.

[JigglyMoobs]

Khobai, on 27 November 2017 - 05:04 PM, said:

but then what counters fast heavies?

it seems like nothing counters fast heavies...

they counter assaults, they counter mediums, they counter lights. they counter jumpsnipers, they counter lrm boats.

Depends on which heavy and how they are armed.

Ebon jag laser vomit? Dakka assault, fast brawlers.

Summoner with erppc? Limited firepower and harassing lights. Or another sniper.

Fast heavy brawlers? Awareness and midrange focus fire.

Etc.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 27 November 2017 - 05:13 PM.

[Troa Barton]

Carry a UAV your team will come back for the easy kill, great "light insurance".

[mouser42]

The commando is fine the way it is, heck if you know how to hit a moving target it's a one shot kill. The mech should not be nerf because some pilots aim sucks or a slow moving assault or heavy goes solo and gets hump to death by a chihuahua light. And if you find them so annoying just get one and join the fun.

[Y E O N N E]

A couple of things...

1. This is less a torso pitch issue and more a "the floor is not transparent and causes locks to get lost" issue; if PGI broadened the lock cut-off, you could aim center of the bracket with arm weapons even if you can't see the 'Mech itself instead of having to poke around on intuition

2. Even then, this isn't that big of a problem; if you carry the firepower to basically delete 'Mechs from any other weight class, you can deal with having this one drawback if such loadouts require everything go into the torso. You don't get to have it all.

[ocular tb]

I'm curious, what light and assault mech combinations is this a problem with?

[JigglyMoobs]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 November 2017 - 06:18 PM, said:

A couple of things...

1. This is less a torso pitch issue and more a "the floor is not transparent and causes locks to get lost" issue; if PGI broadened the lock cut-off, you could aim center of the bracket with arm weapons even if you can't see the 'Mech itself instead of having to poke around on intuition

2. Even then, this isn't that big of a problem; if you carry the firepower to basically delete 'Mechs from any other weight class, you can deal with having this one drawback if such loadouts require everything go into the torso. You don't get to have it all.

You should not have to require locks to aim your arm reticle at a mech that is directly in front of you.

[JigglyMoobs]

ocular tb, on 27 November 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

I'm curious, what light and assault mech combinations is this a problem with?

As far as I'm aware it's a problem with assault mechs that have high cockpits. Definitely a problem with the annihilator. I don't have a cyclops but it seems those also have problems. I think you also have vision problems in an Atlas but you might be able to hit them anyways if you just fire your weapons. Not sure about KDK. Earlier in the thread someone reported a problem with King crabs.

On the previous page someone had a video with a locust and a mauler.

Now the locust is not quite as much of a problem as the commando because the commando can carry SRMs.

[James Argent]

The Basilisk, on 27 November 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

Knowledge is OP.
Most ppl have not the slightest bit of an idea what rewards are there and for exactly what they are dealt out.

To be fair to them, PGI has done absolutely terrible documentation of scoring elements. The definitions are hidden in one patch notes post from literally years ago. Nobody digs that far back in a game's patch notes unless they need to for an event, and sometimes even PGI staff members have gotten them wrong when they were writing event descriptions.

They need to be in a much more visible place. I have suggested many times that they put them on a separate webpage and link to it from the 'GAME' page (linked at the top left of this very page) where they describe the game and the battlefield roles. The subsection 'GET REWARDED' would be an ideal place to link to this new scoring elements webpage...or, just list and define them there in their own subsection on that page.

If the info is more easily accessible, people who choose to do the barest minimum of research would undoubtedly become better players.

[Brain Cancer]

ocular tb, on 27 November 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

I'm curious, what light and assault mech combinations is this a problem with?

The Atlas was the original Commando chew toy...well, once collisions were gone. Especially since most builds for it don't bother using the arm mounts.