247 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 11 December 2017 - 03:18 PM, said:

what clan laser vomit mech has 26-30 DHS?

most have like 24-25. my ebon jag has 25.

All pure-laser Assaults are running between 27 and 30. IS run 20-21, a few can squeeze in 22.

Clan heavies run 24-26. HBR runs 26, TBR runs 25-26 unless you bring JJs, then it's 24. IS heavies run 17-19. TDR-5S-T is 17, 5SS is an outlier at 20. BK, WHM, GHR, MAD-BH2 all run 19.

[davoodoo]

Nine-Ball, on 11 December 2017 - 03:41 PM, said:

So what should we address Heavy Large Lasers as?

Sir? Ma'am? Your majesty?

Some would like as "please get out sir before i call the police"

I would rather say "please take a seat"

[Khobai]

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All pure-laser Assaults are running between 27 and 30. IS run 20-21, a few can squeeze in 22.

Clan heavies run 24-26. HBR runs 26, TBR runs 25-26 unless you bring JJs, then it's 24. IS heavies run 17-19. TDR-5S-T is 17, 5SS is an outlier at 20. BK, WHM, GHR, MAD-BH2 all run 19.

yeah so if you make all IS DHS 2.0, it balances things out.

your average clan heavy has 25 DHS (20 + 15*1.5 = 42.5). So an IS heavy with 19 DHS that are all 2.0 will have the equivalent of 22-23 CDHS (19*2 = 38).

a lot of IS mechs have -5%/-10% heat generation quirks as well. so mechs with those quirks would be almost exactly spot on balanced with their clan equivalents.

its not exactly equal, but its a hell of a lot closer than it is now; which is not close at all.


so PGI should definitely make all IS DHS 2.0 instead of 1.5

Edited by Khobai, 11 December 2017 - 04:12 PM.

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 11 December 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

yeah so if you make all IS DHS 2.0, it balances things out.

your average clan heavy has 24-25 DHS. So an IS heavy with 19 DHS that are all 2.0 will have the equivalent of 22-23 CDHS.

13x1.5=19.5
19.5+20=39.5
19x2=38
it will be closer to 21-22 cdhs

and problem starts to show as you put less dhs on lets say brawling is machines which will now get a huge boost from any extra dhs.

for example 350 engine atlas brawler will have 14x2=28shs worth of cooling while 400 engine spirit bear will have 6x1.5=9 9+10=19 shs worth of it.

splatwacker with 280xl will have again 28shs worth of cooling
while pakhet will only have 14dhs or 26 shs worth of cooling

In both cases clan mechs rely on superior firepower while is ones rely on armor/structure quirks.

Edited by davoodoo, 11 December 2017 - 04:14 PM.

[Khobai]

IS mechs often get -5%/-10% heat generation quirks which IS players always forget about. So that makes up for some of the discrepancy.

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and problem starts to show as you put less dhs on lets say brawling is machines which will now get a huge boost from any extra dhs.

for example 350 engine atlas brawler will have 14x2=28shs worth of cooling while 400 engine spirit bear will have 6x1.5=9 9+10=19 shs worth of it.

its only a problem if you dont use external heatsinks

and why wouldnt a spirit bear have external heatsinks?

not sure why youre using a 400 engine either. its not efficient. big engines arnt worth it for big mechs anymore. the spirit bear is no exception, sticking a 400 engine in that thing is pointless.

also consider the atlas is using an LFE while the spirit bear gets a CXL. so if they both had the same size engine, the atlas would be paying more tonnage. 350 CXL = 22 tons, 350 LFE = 29.5 tons!

the atlas is already losing tonnage by having to use a heavier engine than the spirit bear. itd just be gaining that back by having more efficient DHS.

All IS DHS being 2.0 would be pretty damn close to balanced.

Edited by Khobai, 11 December 2017 - 04:27 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 11 December 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

yeah so if you make all IS DHS 2.0, it balances things ou.

your average clan heavy has 24-25 DHS. So an IS heavy with 19 DHS that are all 2.0 will have the equivalent of 22-23 CDHS.

No, it literally does not.

15 extra cDHS at 0.15 is exactly identical to 9 extra isDHS at 0.25. At 0.2, you have another 0.45 points to go. It is significant.

Clan:
15 x 0.15 = 2.25

IS:
9 x 0.15 = 1.35
vs.
9 x 0.20 = 1.8
or
9 x 0.25 = 2.25

The 10 engine sinks are still 0.2 for both sides.

Dissipation for external sinks at 0.2 is objectively inadequate. With ERML having the same efficiency for both sides, ERLL/ERSL being damn close, and those being the bread-and-butter for laser vomit...you can't skimp on the dissipation. What you don't need, however, is increased heat cap per sink, since initial IS volley is still less heat.

The rest of the IS lasers have their heat efficiency compensated for with range deficiencies and don't correspond to Clans 1-to-1. I will say the cLPL needs to go back to 13 as the Clan analogue to the isLL. The isLPL needs to go back to 11 to make it worth taking over a LL at all; I'll even accept a duration increase on it to 0.85 seconds or so.

And even though certain meme builds would run heat-negative (SL spam), they have neither the burst nor the DPS to be good on big 'Mechs that could make them meme-worthy in the first place. Youbwanted SLs un the "super chill" niche? Here you go.

[Khobai]

Quote

No, it literally does not.

15 extra cDHS at 0.15 is exactly identical to 9 extra isDHS at 0.25. At 0.2, you have another 0.45 points to go. It is significant.

again some IS mechs get -10% heat generation quirks (plus all the other quirks). those are significant as well. you cannot ignore them.


so if you can get IS DHS within 10% of CDHS then the quirks will take them the rest of the way.

Making all IS DHS 2.0 is pretty much spot on to where IS DHS should be.


Clan heavy = 25 CDHS = 42.5 cooling

IS heavy = 19 ISDHS = 38 cooling and if the mech has a -10% heat generation quirk, thats super close


it doesnt matter if clan heatsinks are still a little better. As long as theyre not A LOT better. Its a massive improvement over what we have now.

Edited by Khobai, 11 December 2017 - 04:37 PM.

[CIag]

LOL or we have the LOLAlpha hellbringer with 2HL 5ML with 25 doubles and -10heat gen, how is this a thing still and not nerfed?

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 11 December 2017 - 04:30 PM, said:

again some IS mechs get -10% heat generation quirks. those are significant as well. you cannot ignore them.

so if you can get IS DHS within 10% of CDHS then the quirks will take them the rest of the way.

Making all IS DHS 2.0 is pretty much spot on to where IS DHS should be.

So remove the quirks. Bam, was that so hard?

Better DHS all around is preferable to spotty quirks any day.

Also, some Clan 'Mechs also have 10% heat quirks. Taken a look at the HBR-VI recently? Now there's a 'Mech that was really hurting for heat management!...said nobody ever. 4x cERLL all day long.

[Khobai]

Quote

LOL or we have the LOLAlpha hellbringer with 2HL 5ML with 25 doubles and -10heat gen, how is this a thing still and not nerfed?

well its why they need to link medium and large lasers for ghost heat and make CERML -1 damage

and buff all ISDHS to 2.0 so they dont suck

Quote

Also, some Clan 'Mechs also have 10% heat quirks. Taken a look at the HBR-VI recently? Now there's a 'Mech that was really hurting for heat management!...said nobody ever. 4x cERLL all day long.

well they shouldnt have -10% heat quirks

they wanted people to have a good reason not to use ECM

but they couldve given it something else like an agility buff

Quote

Better DHS all around is preferable to spotty quirks any day.

I dont think DHS should be better than 2.0, thats their canon value.

Making IS DHS 2.0 is close enough. IS still get a ton of quirks compared to clan mechs.

Edited by Khobai, 11 December 2017 - 04:47 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 11 December 2017 - 04:30 PM, said:

it doesnt matter if clan heatsinks are still a little better. As long as theyre not A LOT better. Its a massive improvement over what we have now.

It does matter because you are leaving gaps for the sake of your personal optical preferences.

And if "close enough" is satisfactory to you, why were you so up in arms during CW PTS about the isERML having 32 meters of paint scratching advantage over the cERML? That was way more "trivial" than this.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 11 December 2017 - 04:48 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

And if "close enough" is satisfactory to you, why were you so up in arms during CW PTS about the isERML having 32 meters of paint scratching advantage over the cERML? That was way more "trivial" than this.

I wasnt up in arms because the ISERML had more range.

its because it was stupidly inconsistent.

some weapons had x2 max range. some weapons had x1.6 max range. it was a mess and all over the place.

its still stupid that clan pulse lasers dont get x2 max range. but the IS ones do. its not consistent at all.

im not saying the CLPL should have 1200m max range. its optimum range should be lowered to like 425m-450m though so its max range can be double its optimum range, so its consistent with every other laser in the game.


its the same thing with the engine agility desync nerf... that was handled so inconsistently. the point of it was to make all mechs of the same tonnage roughly equal in agility. but instead of being consistent with it, they used it as a opportunity to nerf the !@#$ out of clan mechs like the night gyr and timberwolf. the inconsistency is what bothers me.

Edited by Khobai, 11 December 2017 - 05:08 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 11 December 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

I wasnt up in arms becuase the ISERML had more range.

its because it was stupidly inconsistent.

That is not what you told me when we discussed it, then. You were adamant about it giving the IS a quantifiable trading advantage and that Clans should always have better range because heat...even though they already do more damage and run colder on the net and the IS advantage was not a practical one because spending 4.5 heat to deal 0.2 damage and then get pushed up on is silly.

Quote

some weapons had x2 max range. some weapons had x1.6 max range. it was a mess and all over the place.

I agree, but there are insufficient drawbacks otherwise without compromising other traits that are considered even more sacred.

Quote

its still stupid that pulse lasers dont get x2 max range.

Not at all. Then the isERML and the isLL would be 100% outclassed. Dramatically so. You would have to whack cLPL range down to 450 and cMPL down to 270 to come anywhere near balancing 2x max range out on them.

The inconsistency is annoying, but it does serve a very tangible purpose.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 11 December 2017 - 05:05 PM.

[Jon Gotham]

Any competent opponent will twist/move that damage away. You want stare at someone for 1.5 secs when your opponent has already put his full duration into and is already twisting?
You want to try landing that at knife fight range?

They are only good when your target isn't aware of you.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Jon Gotham, on 11 December 2017 - 05:16 PM, said:

Any competent opponent will twist/move that damage away. You want stare at someone for 1.5 secs when your opponent has already put his full duration into and is already twisting?
You want to try landing that at knife fight range?

They are only good when your target isn't aware of you.

Most assaults (and some heavies) are too slow to effectively shield, even from a 1,5s beam. Coincidently, these assaults suck because concidently they feel like they're made of paper and coincidently drop like flies, despite many of them coincidently having crazy-on-paper durability quirks.

What a coincidence.

EDIT: coincidently HLLs also have great damage/tick, so even if your opponent shields quickly, you'll do more meaningfull damage with them than with basically any other lasers in the game.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 11 December 2017 - 05:44 PM.

[Jon Gotham]

Odd Prof, I have never had an issue Vs them. They always seem to slow and unwieldy to me. More scared of MPLS etc.

[Maker L106]

HLL user exclusive to my Shadow Cat since they were released and i drooled allover them. (Still do)

The C-HLL isn't OP. But it DOES give additional damage and firepower to lighter mechs with limited hardpoints. Which was more or less its purpose if I'm understanding correctly. The biggest issues people run into when actually USING them is that I fire once on Rubilite while running with the NARCat thats 2HLL's and i'm at about 61% heat bar... that's all i've got one solid burn, NARC the enemy and throw MG fire till i dissapear back over the ridge or back into my team / detatchment.

the HLL's aren't even close to super good unless you catch someone snoozing or need to rake a lot of damage across a wide enemy flank (bunch of 1% left CT's or something super rare like that). The weapon system also almost necessitates running one, two or sometimes three firing groups dedicated solely to the HLL setup if you want to burn them as optimally and as often as possible without the use of the override button.

Granted this is all coolshots not withstanding but even those are only going to really give you another burn with these fat *** lasers. In the end they're useful tools as they are now. Not OP, not anything remotely close. But they can certainly throw down on mechs that can use them and benefit from such an upgrade.

Personally I'd take IS LPPC or Snubs before i take HLL's just based on what use I'd be able to get with them over time. Hell MPL's are often a better use of your tonnage and they aren't as heavy. That is IF the hard points are available. Which again brings this full circle.

TL;DR : OP no, useful yes.

[Khobai]

Quote

Not at all. Then the isERML and the isLL would be 100% outclassed. Dramatically so. You would have to whack cLPL range down to 450 and cMPL down to 270 to come anywhere near balancing 2x max range out on them.

yes the optimum range of CLPL should be like 450m/900m max range

it should have the same x2 range as every other laser weapon

its a stupid inconsistency

CLPL is probably a little too good with 600m optimum anyway

[Lily from animove]

I don't fear HLL, their crappy burn duration makes me spread their damage which in the end makes their heatefficency towards killing vital mech components real crappy. And during this "stare moment" he is a easy to hit in a single component opponent. And range is also "meh". So they are only dangerous if someone doesn't knows how to twist ot corner/coverpop corrently.

Khobai, on 11 December 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

I wasnt up in arms because the ISERML had more range.

its because it was stupidly inconsistent.

some weapons had x2 max range. some weapons had x1.6 max range. it was a mess and all over the place.

its still stupid that clan pulse lasers dont get x2 max range. but the IS ones do. its not consistent at all.

im not saying the CLPL should have 1200m max range. its optimum range should be lowered to like 425m-450m though so its max range can be double its optimum range, so its consistent with every other laser in the game.


its the same thing with the engine agility desync nerf... that was handled so inconsistently. the point of it was to make all mechs of the same tonnage roughly equal in agility. but instead of being consistent with it, they used it as a opportunity to nerf the !@#$ out of clan mechs like the night gyr and timberwolf. the inconsistency is what bothers me.

Why noobs get rekt hard?

well lets invent a mechanic and then make like 120 different subrules to individual things so no one studiyng the game hard actually knows how evertyhing works together.

Edited by Lily from animove, 12 December 2017 - 02:20 AM.

[50 50]

Always felt that it would have been nice to use the heavy lasers like a continual beam weapon.
Would have made them a little different to use.
Instead, the numbers were tweaked to try and fit them into a pretty narrow band somewhere between the pulse and ER lasers.

Tonnage, critical space and range aside the Damage Per Second and Heat Per Second for the large laser range was really close.
I haven't bothered crunching the numbers since the test server but it was something like:

Large Pulse: 2.8dps / 2.3hps
ER Large: 2.2dps / 2.0hps
Heavy Large: 2.1dps / 2.2hps

That might have changed in the patches since but I bet it's still within a few points.