247 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Bragg936, on 28 November 2017 - 06:49 AM, said:

I dont think we can talk about the HLL withought straying into the Heavy guess and MRM discussion.

Yes we can. One of them requires a slow standard engine, has a finite amount of shots, and doesn't even do the kind of damage you are anticipating outside of face-grinding ranges where SRMs tear it apart. The other one fits on anything, does exactly the expected damage to almost half a kilometer, and lasts forever.

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Guass pinpoint damage if run in a pair can strip a CT and core a mech in short order(56 CT on my helbringer for referance), ive run into a couple of assults with this build and its very effective if they are in range.

You should be running at least 76 front armor, preferably no less than 80. This is a problem of your own making, running less-than-optimal armor.

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MRM are just as evil if used correctly.

Ah, the most classic defense of sub-optimal play...

MRM damage is inherently spread, and even easier to distribute than HLL damage since it doesn't even hit instantly. You can shield even before they make contact, while a beam is going to deposit damage where its user intended for at least the amount of time it takes you to react to getting hit and start moving the component out of the way. MRMs are great against big slow targets, but the only such 'Mechs that are good are operating at 900 meters where they can't touch or they can outright remove a side torso in a single pinpoint shot from 450 meters away because you need to face stare for the volley.

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Taken in context with IS tech the HLL is quite well balanced and is outranged by a lot of current builds (includeing an MRM build, which is just at max range for the HL)

I don't think the HLL needs too many tweaks, the underlying problem is the ability to boat cDHS to cool off their over-sized alphas to a point that exceeds the capabilities of moderately-gunned IS 'Mechs. But...your chosen arguments are pretty weak.

[valrond]

I think they are fine. They are not needed in the omnimechs with more pod space, as there are other weapons that are more efficient. But they fit perfectly in omnimechs with low pod space, such as the Thor, Linebacker, Gargoyle, Executioner, and most lights, cause it adds a lot of punch for few tons.

The thing is, you can't boat this thing. It generates so much heat, that you'd need more heatsinks that can fit the mech, so there isn't much upside to using this in mechs with a lot of pod space.

TL, DR
So I think they are ok, they don't make the better mechs better, but they do make the worse mechs not that bad.

[Khobai]

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MRM damage is inherently spread, and even easier to distribute than HLL damage since it doesn't even hit instantly.

yeah but MRMs hardly generate any heat. thats their strength.

two MRM30s is potentially 60 damage for 18 heat.

HLL is 18 damage for 16 heat...

but its kindve a dumb comparison the weapons have completely different roles. I just wanted to point out the rather impressive damage to heat ratio of MRMs. MRMs can definitely be evil weapons if used right (against big slow targets lol)

Edited by Khobai, 28 November 2017 - 02:44 PM.

[FupDup]

valrond, on 28 November 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

I think they are fine. They are not needed in the omnimechs with more pod space, as there are other weapons that are more efficient. But they fit perfectly in omnimechs with low pod space, such as the Thor, Linebacker, Gargoyle, Executioner, and most lights, cause it adds a lot of punch for few tons.

The thing is, you can't boat this thing. It generates so much heat, that you'd need more heatsinks that can fit the mech, so there isn't much upside to using this in mechs with a lot of pod space.

TL, DR
So I think they are ok, they don't make the better mechs better, but they do make the worse mechs not that bad.

Uh...yeah you can boat it. The HLL can be combined with a bunch of ERMLas very effectively. For example, the Hunch IIC can run 2 HLL and 4-6 ERML for a crazy alpha for its size. The Hellbringer is another very good candidate for that build. And of course there's the 2 HLL + 4 ERML + 2 Gauss Deathstrike...

[MischiefSC]

Threads like this remind me of why we need a better matchmaker.

There's people in this thread who really, really should not ever be in a match together.

[Xavori]

MischiefSC, on 28 November 2017 - 02:51 PM, said:

Threads like this remind me of why we need a better matchmaker.

There's people in this thread who really, really should not ever be in a match together.

Rofl.

Or they just need to watch the tournament vids and count the number of HLL's vs ERLL's.

[Khobai]

The only laser thats really being abused above and beyond all other lasers is the CERML

CERML is the only laser that needs to be nerfed. It should be changed to 6 damage, 5.3 heat, 4.0 cooldown, and 1.1 duration

Theres no need to reduce HLL by 2 damage. HLL still isnt that good even compared to a 6 damage CERMLs.

All thats needed aside from CERML being nerfed is the ghost linkage of large and medium lasers.

Edited by Khobai, 28 November 2017 - 03:29 PM.

[SeventhSL]

I really don't think C-HLL are the real problem.

The real issue is that there is no decent trade off mechanic for having a higher alpha. No real system of diminishing returns. If accuracy decreased with alpha strike size then it would make a huge difference.

For example, <30pt alphas would be extramly accurate and allow you to focus a component. <55pt alphas would spray the mech with a reasonable amount where you want it. >55pts would start to get wild quickly so that by the time you get to 70pts some weapons miss the enemy entirely.

While I have used alpha size as a guide the real mechanic would give each weapon it's own -accuracy (heat shimmer, recoil, etc) attribute when fired. Other accuracy modifiers like speed and target lock would also need to play their part. The idea would be to prevent players simply taking a couple of large weapons to make up their alpha (why energy draw failed) and encourage them to take a mix of weapons types.

Edited by SeventhSL, 28 November 2017 - 03:52 PM.

[davoodoo]

I dont think theres problem to begin with.

On the other hand i can see problems with clan assaults and heavies having to run ballistics or standard engine(if possible) just to fill the tonnage.

Ofc for that im assuming no nonsensical builds that simply wont work in current meta like chainfiring larges...

Edited by davoodoo, 28 November 2017 - 03:49 PM.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Since the topic is about the balance of the Large class lasers in general, what is the general thought on the Inner Sphere's Large X-Pulse Laser?

3057 tech, 450 optimal, 7 ton 2 slot, 14 damage, 9 heat.

Let me be clear that I am NOT bringing this up as a counter to the HLL. I'm just interested in how much people think it would affect the large laser hierarchy.

[FupDup]

LT. HARDCASE, on 28 November 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:

Since the topic is about the balance of the Large class lasers in general, what is the general thought on the Inner Sphere's Large X-Pulse Laser?

3057 tech, 450 optimal, 7 ton 2 slot, 14 damage, 9 heat.

Let me be clear that I am NOT bringing this up as a counter to the HLL. I'm just interested in how much people think it would affect the large laser hierarchy.

It depends on specifically how much PGI changes its base stats (heat will obviously go WAY down), but they would likely use the current IS LPL as the baseline for it. Thus, I wouldn't expect it to compete very well against the Clams.

In particular it's gonna need a different range bracket, otherwise it competes too much with the regular IS LL and thus one is going to be obsolete to the other (although the IS LL is arguably a little bit obsolete even now). I'd recommend somewhere in the low 500's.

But then again it just reflects how flawed the current pulse mechanics are. They're just regular/ER lasers with altered stats. They ought to be something different like a "laser autocannon" that shoots rapidly for higher sustained DPS at the cost of lower alpha strike. Then we don't have to worry about range overlap.

Edited by FupDup, 28 November 2017 - 04:18 PM.

[LT. HARDCASE]

FupDup, on 28 November 2017 - 04:14 PM, said:

It depends on specifically how much PGI changes its base stats (heat will obviously go WAY down), but they would likely use the current IS LPL as the baseline for it. Thus, I wouldn't expect it to compete very well against the Clams.

In particular it's gonna need a different range bracket, otherwise it competes too much with the regular IS LL and thus one is going to be obsolete to the other (although the IS LL is arguably a little bit obsolete even now). I'd recommend somewhere in the low 500's.

But then again it just reflects how flawed the current pulse mechanics are. They're just regular/ER lasers with altered stats. They ought to be something different like a "laser autocannon" that shoots rapidly for higher sustained DPS at the cost of lower alpha strike. Then we don't have to worry about range overlap.

Tbh, the vanilla LL is kinda like the STD engine; it is doomed for obsolescence, and we shouldn't try to save it.

I have a feeling PGI will leave the LXPL at 14/9, and it'll have slightly longer duration than the LPL. I feel they also wouldn't go past 500m, as it can't come close to the ERLL's 9 damage at 675m

Damn I always forget to how bad the lore IS-LPL was, 9 damage for 10 heat, 300m range.

[FupDup]

LT. HARDCASE, on 28 November 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Tbh, the vanilla LL is kinda like the STD engine; it is doomed for obsolescence, and we shouldn't try to save it.

I have a feeling PGI will leave the LXPL at 14/9, and it'll have slightly longer duration than the LPL. I feel they also wouldn't go past 500m, as it can't come close to the ERLL's 9 damage at 675m

Damn I always forget to how bad the lore IS-LPL was, 9 damage for 10 heat, 300m range.

No way they'll leave it that high. Almost every laser in the game has lower heat than TT, sometimes drastically (like the IS ERLL losing 33%). Given that the IS LPL is only down at 7.25, there is no way in heck that PGI will just leave the XLPL at nearly double that. Even with my little faith in PGI I know they won't mess it up that badly.

The absolute maximum heat the XLPL should have is 9, depending on where we want its range bracket to be.

The damage will not be lower than the IS LPL per shot (it's currently 10, as a reminder).

PS: The IS LL is pretty easy to save though. I'd like to try it at just 6 heat, letting it continuously pump out ice-cold damage at medium range but being limited by both duration (1.1 means it won't overtake brawling lasers) and range (being outranged by a lot of things).

Edited by FupDup, 28 November 2017 - 04:57 PM.

[Grus]

sceii, on 27 November 2017 - 11:16 PM, said:

Easy guide how to counter HLL mechs.
Step 1: Equip your mech with srm/mrm/ml/mpl/ac10-20/mg
Step 2: Find enemy mech with hll
Step 3: Use your best tactics to get in 300m range bracket
Step 4: Twist as good as you can for 1 enemy mech alpha
Step 5: Kill enemy mech when he is waiting for his lasers and heat to cooldown.
EZPZ

this^^ every one of these laser vomit clanmeds require 10-15 seconds (minus cool shot) to be able to fire again so thought cookingthemselcs into oblivion.. even if they do pop a CS then they still have a chunk of heat leftover so a full alpha isn't gonna happen.

[ANOM O MECH]

Snazzy Dragon, on 27 November 2017 - 09:13 PM, said:

They are simply way too efficient for their tonnage despite the heat and slots.

Let's just compare right quick;

The previous damage "record" from using only 2 large laser family weapons were the 13 damage clan large pulse lasers, for 26 damage, at 12 tons. It's 24 damage now.
2 clan ER large lasers are 8 tons, for 22 damage, still beating out 2 isERLL (18 dmg) by a pretty noticeable margin.

IS large lasers need to be in a 15 ton trio to even compete on "equal" footing, dealing 27 damage. With large pulses you were sitting on 21 tons for 33 damage (30 now because of shortsighted nerfs).

Now, the heavy large laser pair is only 8 tons for 36 damage. Sure, you are saddled with high heat and long cooldowns, but it isn't a significant factor when the role of large lasers has generally been to shoot and fade anyway. Heavy large lasers pair even better than the cLPL does with cERMLs due to the saved tonnage despite the increase in crit space, so they've significantly boosted the potency of clan laser vomit. 2HLL + 4-6 ER medium lasers is the norm, and on mechs that can throw gauss into the mix, and with the Deathstrike being able to swap the ER mediums for heavy mediums with no real issue, things get really out of proportion for how powerful it is.
And, before the duration argument crops up, HLLs deal higher damage/tick than any other laser, so in the same time it takes other lasers to fire off and finish, you've almost always won the trade already. The extra duration is just the leg up if it lands. You're often dealing more than 8 extra damage on the other guy, and as a clan mech, you've probably just fired a crapton of other stuff with it, too.

TL;DR something needs to be done to curb their power. Cooldown is almost meaningless for balancing lasers larger than a small laser, so it needs to be in the raw damage or the duration, or in the range at which they can be used effectively.

Been running a Jag with 2hll and 5medpls. Feels stupid powerful. Any assault charging is dead or useless after two alphas. If still alive I can get two more vollies with the pulses before overheating. Probably makes sense to not be able to alpha that loadout more than once.

[MischiefSC]

Grus, on 28 November 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

this^^ every one of these laser vomit clanmeds require 10-15 seconds (minus cool shot) to be able to fire again so thought cookingthemselcs into oblivion.. even if they do pop a CS then they still have a chunk of heat leftover so a full alpha isn't gonna happen.

MAD IIC. 2HLL, 6 CERML. 20 DHS. Heat management 1.33. It's about 6 seconds to cool enough to shoot again. Depends on the map, runs about 4-7 seconds.

About as long as it takes the HLLs to cycle.

If I need to shoot sooner I can pop off just the 6x CERML for 42 pts and about 37 heat, which for a mech with 20 DHS isn't much of anything.

I have absolutely 0 issue with mechs pushing in a Clan laservomit mech - in fact I'm usually the one pushing. I have 2 coolshots, which means I'm going to have no issue killing or crippling 2 or 3 mechs for my 1 mech in a push. It's also going to all be where I want it.

78 hitscan damage beats < 60 spread MRM/SRM damage. What you guys keep missing is that if you're putting in all the DHS you can carry thanks to lighter/smaller everything that 78 pt alpha isn't really hotter or take longer to cool than the 50-60 pt SRM alpha.

[Grus]

MischiefSC, on 28 November 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

MAD IIC. 2HLL, 6 CERML. 20 DHS. Heat management 1.33. It's about 6 seconds to cool enough to shoot again. Depends on the map, runs about 4-7 seconds.

About as long as it takes the HLLs to cycle.

If I need to shoot sooner I can pop off just the 6x CERML for 42 pts and about 37 heat, which for a mech with 20 DHS isn't much of anything.

I have absolutely 0 issue with mechs pushing in a Clan laservomit mech - in fact I'm usually the one pushing. I have 2 coolshots, which means I'm going to have no issue killing or crippling 2 or 3 mechs for my 1 mech in a push. It's also going to all be where I want it.

78 hitscan damage beats &lt; 60 spread MRM/SRM damage. What you guys keep missing is that if you're putting in all the DHS you can carry thanks to lighter/smaller everything that 78 pt alpha isn't really hotter or take longer to cool than the 50-60 pt SRM alpha.

thought we were talking about full alpha to full alpha... also not taking CS into account.

[Y E O N N E]

Grus, on 28 November 2017 - 05:56 PM, said:

thought we were talking about full alpha to full alpha... also not taking CS into account.

Even without the CS, the Clans push better. You might initially get maybe one more consecutive shot without it from an IS 'Mech, but once you are heat capped your next shot comes sooner for the Clan 'Mech.

That said, if you are pushing with laser vomit then you are using cMPL. Those fire and cycle faster than IS ERML, IS ML, and comparably to IS LPL. It's...kind've broken right now. They should not have nerfed the other Medium lasers.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 28 November 2017 - 04:14 PM, said:

It depends on specifically how much PGI changes its base stats (heat will obviously go WAY down), but they would likely use the current IS LPL as the baseline for it. Thus, I wouldn't expect it to compete very well against the Clams.

In particular it's gonna need a different range bracket, otherwise it competes too much with the regular IS LL and thus one is going to be obsolete to the other (although the IS LL is arguably a little bit obsolete even now). I'd recommend somewhere in the low 500's.

But then again it just reflects how flawed the current pulse mechanics are. They're just regular/ER lasers with altered stats. They ought to be something different like a "laser autocannon" that shoots rapidly for higher sustained DPS at the cost of lower alpha strike. Then we don't have to worry about range overlap.

Pulse Lasers should work exactly like the lasers in Tie Fighter. They should have their own energy bank that they deplete each time they fire, that would slowly recharge when the weapon isnt in use.

You could even borrow the mechanic from Tie Fighter where the lasers do bonus damage if the battery bank is above 50% charge capacity. That way theres more incentive to manage the battery bank power instead of just firing until its depleted.

Pulse Lasers would be like burst damage lasers then.

Edited by Khobai, 28 November 2017 - 06:15 PM.

[Grus]

But back to the OP I think the clan laservom is just fine right now. If we had a better option then we would use it. You know, like RAC5's that blind and never jam...

Or ac's that do all their damage per shot...