160 replies to this topic

[Lykaon]

gooddragon2, on 27 December 2017 - 04:53 PM, said:

So if the clubee's formed a firing line and picked targets they'd have a chance?

Yes, If the "clubee's" managed to spontaneously develop practiced coordination and if the entire "clubee" team had decent and competitive mech builds the playing field would be pretty much level.

[ANOM O MECH]

Bombast, on 27 December 2017 - 06:32 PM, said:

Or, you know... don't ignore it.

Clubbing is an intent. People intentionally do it this in FP, whether you like it or not. That doesn't mean everyone claiming to be clubbed is correct, but the nonstop 'get gudding' people parrot doesn't change the fact that there's a substantial portion of the community (In any gaming community, really) that intentionally queue up and drop just to beat up on people they know aren't able to handle whats going on.

So I guess when you and your fellow GOON members are on stream synch dropping with the b33f, we can assume your intent is to seal club the public queue and not have to group up or worry about weight restrictions?

Are there groups that are there to club seals? Sure, but they are not the good units or how the majority of the top units play. Some have less mercy than others, but all of the notable units want to fight other units.

Since there is no matchmaker or separation of queues, players choose to play at their own risk.

If you are not very good, you can either join up with more experienced players for a better experience, or you could tough it out and learn the ropes the hard way, or you could wait until you are at least tier one or two and have positive kdr/wlr stats, and give it a whirl.

[Bombast]

tker 669, on 29 December 2017 - 05:28 PM, said:

So I guess when you and your fellow GOON members are on stream synch dropping with the b33f, we can assume your intent is to seal club the public queue and not have to group up or worry about weight restrictions?

My intents to kill theb33f, like most of the people doing that.

Well, him, Cyber and Frag. While avoiding Magic Pain Glove because he's scary.

As I said, intent is hard to measure, and its wrong to automatically assume Stomp=Clubbing. But it does happen, and people admit to it.

tker 669, on 29 December 2017 - 05:28 PM, said:

Are there groups that are there to club seals? Sure, but they are not the good units or how the majority of the top units play. Some have less mercy than others, but all of the notable units want to fight other units.

That's a generalization.

tker 669, on 29 December 2017 - 05:28 PM, said:

Since there is no matchmaker or separation of queues, players choose to play at their own risk.

Ok.

tker 669, on 29 December 2017 - 05:28 PM, said:

If you are not very good, you can either join up with more experienced players for a better experience, or you could tough it out and learn the ropes the hard way, or you could wait until you are at least tier one or two and have positive kdr/wlr stats, and give it a whirl.

I find it amusing that in a thread that's sole purpose is to ask what/how FP Clubbing is/goes, people seem so hellbent on twisting it into a 'If only you people wouldn't suck so bad' thread.

Edited by Bombast, 29 December 2017 - 05:37 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 27 December 2017 - 05:51 PM, said:

even quickplay separates groups and pugs.

because it is abusive

And yet I see 12-0 / 12-3 rolls in GroupQ from simply running a 2-4-man in GroupQ. Hell last night we lost 2 games out of about 15 in GroupQ as a 3man, it was total steamrolling ad honestly, not even hard. Clubbing no-name players/units to death we were with 2.5k and 5-8 kills between just 3 mechs.

Hell even in SoloQ I can carry my team to victory, as a single player, more often than not.

It will always happen in MWO and continue to get worse as the population continues to drop and (mostly) good players stop playing.

It's not just a FP thing - It is a MWO / Learning Curve / Population ability problem and it's not going anywhere.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 29 December 2017 - 05:39 PM.

[ANOM O MECH]

Zigmund Freud, on 29 December 2017 - 02:17 AM, said:

There's a difference between winning because you're better at FW, or ignoring omega and farming pugs at spawn for 5 more minutes. First one is fine, sadly premade groups also don't have a choice of competing other premades. But second one annoys the hell out of me. You are just wasting time of 12 people to farm some cbills and ruining their game.

And in a game with a large amount of grind and hundreds of mechs and variants to buy, smart money is on that there will be more players who choose to rack up the score and make more cbills.

BTW I am not one of them. I am a whale of the highest order who is now over 3g's into this game. I buy what I want, when I want. We dunk games all of time. Not really out of mercy though, just out of boredom and the hope to get a decent fight.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

I like how the basic argument is that beating your enemy is abusive when that's the point of the game.

People are mad at teams in faction play for clubbing a team of seals, people are mad at small groups in group play for playing seriously and winning and just claim they are "meta try hards" from their LRM atlases, people are mad when a completely random pug team 12-0s another completely random pug team because the first decided to actually work as a team instead of splitting up across the map for no reason.

Can't we just stop listening to whiners and let those guys just rage quit on out of the game so that we don't have stomps anymore?

[ANOM O MECH]

Bombast, on 29 December 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:

My intents to kill theb33f, like most of the people doing that.

Well, him, Cyber and Frag. While avoiding Magic Pain Glove because he's scary.

As I said, intent is hard to measure, and its wrong to automatically assume Stomp=Clubbing. But it does happen, and people admit to it.



That's a generalization.



Ok.



I find it amusing that in a thread that's sole purpose is to ask what/how FP Clubbing is/goes, people seem so hellbent on twisting it into a 'If only you people wouldn't suck so bad' thread.

I agree Magic Pain Glove is scary.

That is absolutely not a generalization. That is my experience dropping with and against Evil, Kcom, MS, MJ12 (and the various new units sprung from it), 228, 54MR and some others I missed as a member of BCMC. Are there some loogans who are out to club? Sure, they just are not in the top units.

If you think what I said, equals if only people wouldn't suck so bad, your bias is blinding you. To be really clear, and with mincing words, I am saying that the top units are not out to seal club. They didn't get good clubbing seals. They don't post videos clubbing seals (the video in this thread is from one of the very best in the game and a comp player that doesn't play faction that often) aside from a couple of highlights for laughs (see b33fs lrm 100 video for reference).

New players, especially solo new players are going to be eaten alive in a mode with no matchmaker. However, they don't have to get good to succeed. I am a former member of HHoD, and they constantly have new players that they are helping along and getting to taste success in CW.

So again to be really forward and clear, you don't have to get good. It doesn't hurt to always try and get better, but you don't have to be a star. You also don't have to join anything. Again there are tons who pug it CW and learn the hard way.

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 29 December 2017 - 05:37 PM, said:

And yet I see 12-0 / 12-3 rolls in GroupQ from simply running a 2-4-man in GroupQ. Hell last night we lost 2 games out of about 15 in GroupQ as a 3man, it was total steamrolling ad honestly, not even hard. Clubbing no-name players/units to death we were with 2.5k and 5-8 kills between just 3 mechs.

Hell even in SoloQ I can carry my team to victory, as a single player, more often than not.

It will always happen in MWO and continue to get worse as the population continues to drop and (mostly) good players stop playing.

It's not just a FP thing - It is a MWO / Learning Curve / Population ability problem and it's not going anywhere.

sure one team getting rolled happens often because of the nature of the game.

but having separate buckets can at least eliminate the obvious cases where one team has no chance of winning at all.

[Mystere]

UnofficialOperator, on 27 December 2017 - 05:12 PM, said:

Guys guys I'm finally ready to play my first FP game!

Which unit do I join to seal club????!!???

Weaksauce! You're supposed to pug CW and try to seal club a 12-man!

Khobai, on 27 December 2017 - 05:51 PM, said:

virtually every other multiplayer game separates premade groups from pugs for a reason.

Did you ever play Age of Conan in the "blood and gore" server? Now that was brutal.

MWO? Not so much.

[PocketYoda]

Bud Crue, on 27 December 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

Only if they:
1) have skill and practice together to hone that skill;
2) communicate and practice together to hone their ability to work as a team;
3a) have sufficient knowledge of the game's mechanics of the moment to understand what mechs to bring on what maps
3b) have the common sense to recognize that there is no place for their personal snowflake, lore, mixed, jack-of-all-trades variant and/or build and understand that "well it worked for me this one time on Vitric" does not a meta make.
4) Having digested the above, once again practicing together to bring the best mechs/builds for the maps and then leverage what each other is bringing to maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses (see comp play and how those folks approach a match).

So yeah, if the club-ees from a decent firing line, call targets, bring the right builds and know how their team mates are going to act with a modicum of predictability and skill then yes they'd have a chance. But that isn't what or why seal clubbing occurs. It occurs because this mode lets anyone in and the folks that understand the mode and play it as a team will ALWAYS dominate those that don't. It's that simple and with a population this low there is no viable solution.

So then they wouldn't be new players then would they...

Dakota1000, on 29 December 2017 - 05:42 PM, said:

I like how the basic argument is that beating your enemy is abusive when that's the point of the game.

People are mad at teams in faction play for clubbing a team of seals, people are mad at small groups in group play for playing seriously and winning and just claim they are "meta try hards" from their LRM atlases, people are mad when a completely random pug team 12-0s another completely random pug team because the first decided to actually work as a team instead of splitting up across the map for no reason.

Can't we just stop listening to whiners and let those guys just rage quit on out of the game so that we don't have stomps anymore?

That is not winning that is a stomp.. you should not take credit for smashing another team that has no chance against you, yes you beat them congratulations, you know the rules and abused them.. you must be so proud.

There is a difference between winning and seal clubbing totally new players.. and why faction war is always in need of players but no one goes there.

Edited by Samial, 29 December 2017 - 06:41 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Khobai, on 29 December 2017 - 06:18 PM, said:

sure one team getting rolled happens often because of the nature of the game.

but having separate buckets can at least eliminate the obvious cases where one team has no chance of winning at all.

I'm of the opinion that there's never a complete no chance of winning a match as a team if that team actually works together. I'm also of the opinion that rolls happen for a reason, not just random chance. The one thing in common with rolls is that the team that had the highest stat players on it tend to cause that team to win. Higher stat players tend to play more seriously and try to help out their team in some way or at least come into the match thinking about helping their team rather than "wo i wonder if i can kill a guy with my LRM100 mad dog this match" or even worse "lol, 8 tags and a small laser, ECKS DEE". Basically these players who get rolled constantly only have themselves to blame, not the team killing them and definitely not PGI.

So the real issue doesn't come down to groups vs solos, it really comes down to people who play the game to win vs people who play the game to troll their team either unintentionally or intentionally. Its really a symptom of the community itself, having stemmed from a series of mostly singleplayer games we still have people who only played mechwarriors 1-4 on easy mode and they're playing exactly the same way in MWO but you just can't set the difficulty slider any lower even down at T5 and some feel they are too "experienced" to ever entertain the thought that they are bad so they constantly whine to remove players who can beat them from the game. They'll keep whining until they are the only ones left and they're fighting bots.

Here's to MW5 hopefully pulling the majority of them away so this community can get back off of life support and start growing again as units take control again and pull in more players.

[Mystere]

oldradagast, on 29 December 2017 - 06:56 AM, said:

Right. Based on that logic, getting 8 of your friends together and "speaking" would make you all comparable in ability to a major league baseball team.

There you go again. <smh>

If you always treat the unit you are facing as a major league baseball team, then you have already lost.

However, if you realize that there is no such thing as a major league baseball team in MWO, then you do have a chance.

THERE ARE NO PRO TEAMS IN MWO!

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 29 December 2017 - 07:55 AM, said:

If you think any unit in FW is anything like a professional sports team you're so delusional I'm not sure what to tell you.

It's identical to any pug team except they're on TS and it's usually the same couple of people calling the drop.

That's it.

What can I say? He has been so spooked by the boogeyman.

[Khobai]

Quote

I'm of the opinion that there's never a complete no chance of winning a match as a team if that team actually works together.

there is definitely no chance of pugs beating a competent premade

because the premades can filter out the bad players and the pugs cant

and it only takes 1-2 bad players to make you lose

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

oldradagast, on 29 December 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

Right, because there's no skill gap, no difference in practice, no coordination in mech builds, or any of that when a team drops together. Sure... it's just a bunch of random people in LRM Atlases that win "because they communicated." We get that you're looking for an excuse to justify the seal-clubbing, but nobody is buying it. Your claim is just as absurd as saying somebody can "buy the same type of ball used in the NFL and call the same plays," so they may as well be an NFL player.

A better comparison would be comparing a group of absolutely normal people who occasionally play a game of baseball every other week with their friends to a group of people with tape over their mouth who use golf clubs instead of a bat to play. Now if that one group would just take the tape off of their mouths and get a real bat then would you look at that, they're also absolutely normal people.

Really, no one except the guys who are at the world tournament are really doing any form of actual practice like an NFL team would do. Believe it or not they're actually just average people who also have average day to day lives and when they play MWO they drop with some buddies and be sociable instead of all alone and fearful.

[Jon Gotham]

oldradagast, on 29 December 2017 - 06:56 AM, said:

Right. Based on that logic, getting 8 of your friends together and &quot;speaking&quot; would make you all comparable in ability to a major league baseball team.

FP is idiotic and has been so since the developers decided to mix people together regardless of skill level or group size. Any game that is serious about providing a fun experience does not do crud like that. Oh, sure - games that are selling &quot;pay to win&quot; will do it intentionally since there's nothing like being smashed constantly straight out of the gate by vastly superior foes you shouldn't even be seeing to encourage people to either quit or pay money. But REAL games - games with a shred of integrity and intelligence - don't do that for obvious reasons.

I get such a laugh out of watching people try to defend this idiocy when they are really looking to justify seal-clubbing. Imagine professional sporting events where one team was full of pros and the other was made half of people who &quot;played a bit during college&quot; and the other half from people randomly picked from the stands. It would be boring, stupid, and one-sided. Nobody - aside from seal-clubbers - would consider it &quot;fun,&quot; and no league that did such nonsense would stay in business. But we're to pretend it's OK in video games. Whatever.

I do not get a laugh out of people like you. It genuinely makes me sad for the human condition. You all seem so anti social, it's tragic. You are your own worst enemy. So hell bent on blaming anyone and anything except your own attitude.
Mwo=online multiplayer team game.
Your attitude=online solo player game.
Mwo>your attitude.
Because others speak and team up where you refuse to, does not make them "wrong." It makes YOU the error.

[MischiefSC]

Dakota1000, on 29 December 2017 - 05:42 PM, said:

I like how the basic argument is that beating your enemy is abusive when that's the point of the game.

People are mad at teams in faction play for clubbing a team of seals, people are mad at small groups in group play for playing seriously and winning and just claim they are "meta try hards" from their LRM atlases, people are mad when a completely random pug team 12-0s another completely random pug team because the first decided to actually work as a team instead of splitting up across the map for no reason.

Can't we just stop listening to whiners and let those guys just rage quit on out of the game so that we don't have stomps anymore?

It's always the same. The guy who put in the effort to beat you is clearly an unstoppable juiced up juggernaut who only plays to stomp all over the guys who 'don't have a chance'.

Teams play pretty much like pugs do but with a little more coordination. Hopefully usually with better decks.

The guys who bring absolutely terrible decks and get destroyed? Nobody did that to them. That wasn't someone showing up wanting to club him down, that was him doing his best to crawl into the wood chipper.

Khobai, on 29 December 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

there is definitely no chance of pugs beating a competent premade because the premades can filter out the bad players and the pugs cant and it only takes 1-2 bad players to make you lose

That's not true, because KCom has lost to pug teams. We lost one the other day. It happens in scouting far more often than it should. However it happens in invasion too.

[N0MAD]

MischiefSC, on 29 December 2017 - 07:38 PM, said:

The guys who bring absolutely terrible decks and get destroyed? Nobody did that to them. That wasn't someone showing up wanting to club him down, that was him doing his best to crawl into the wood chipper.

That comment would have some validity if the game mechanics matched up groups of equal skill/tech levels, but when the game allows new people without the experience or tech levels to the point you have people having to drop in trial mechs, then you would have to say that some one has done it to the, the system has done it to them, and you are quite alright playing a system like that?.
GG.

[Brain Cancer]

MischiefSC, on 29 December 2017 - 07:38 PM, said:

That's not true, because KCom has lost to pug teams. We lost one the other day. It happens in scouting far more often than it should. However it happens in invasion too.

Scouting, your odds of finding 4 competent players at once are far, far better than 12 of them.

And it only takes a few bad players to ruin an Invasion PUG. I mean, I've watched people on streams who apparently decided going in with rocket launchers was the winning tactic, or Direstar-equivalent selfdestruct specials. Or "bracket builds" that make baby RNGesus cry, because you can't roll enough natural 20s to make up for your opponent BTFOing them out while they ping away with their secret AC/2 weapon. The single AC/2. Too good for comp builds!

[TLBFestus]

Ya know, they might have been able to do something with FP even in it's current form IF PGI had had the testicular fortitude to set up a solo FP queue early on and made the groups play with just the groups.

Instead, the groups mercilessly drove people out of FP, then cried like little vitches when any consideration was given to taking their toys (PUGS) away.