160 replies to this topic

[ANOM O MECH]

TLBFestus, on 30 December 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

So what I said about groups farming PUGs in CW is a lie?

Really? Is there some other reason the groups push them back into their drop zones and kill them as they are dropped from the ships? Mercy?

The innumerable posts about it over the past few years, the comments about "potatoes" in CW/FP, all lies?

OK.

It's quite simple.

It's done to finish the match quickly and get on to the next one.

You also usually want to push in with first wave mechs if you won the first wave.

If your enemy isn't in a firing line to kill your damaged mechs before they can hurt the second wave... then you have to often go in and dig them out of the drop zone anyways.

Some of you talk as if it is amoral. It is natural momentum.

As far as the comments? A tier five guy who thinks soloing CW is a good idea in his lore builds has to have a name we can call him in the forums that doesn't get censored.

[riverslq]

McHoshi, on 31 December 2017 - 09:32 PM, said:

blablabla ... FP was never designed for Pugs.

Stop pugging into FP and your Problem is solved! So easy and btw. it is so damn easy to build a group.
Just ninja invite some ppl out of youir friendlist - get on some TS and - then have fun. ^^

ahh..it wasn't 'git gud' this time, it was join a team.
uh huh..
if fp wasnt for pugs, pgi should stop having events associated with it.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

riverslq, on 01 January 2018 - 03:01 PM, said:

ahh..it wasn't 'git gud' this time, it was join a team.
uh huh..
if fp wasnt for pugs, pgi should stop having events associated with it.

Events being had in FP doesn't mean they're for pugs, it means its an event for people who play FP. If the pugs would realize this then there wouldn't be so many problems.

[R Valentine]

When you see the enemy team roll in all piloting the exact same mech, usually Linebackers, KDK-3s, or Timber Wolves, you know a seal clubbin' is a comin'. That's 12 people all in the same off-game voice chat who've played together before. Just die quickly and get on with your life.

[Brain Cancer]

Dakota1000, on 01 January 2018 - 03:05 PM, said:

Events being had in FP doesn't mean they're for pugs, it means its an event for people who play FP. If the pugs would realize this then there wouldn't be so many problems.

When an event takes QP+FP to complete, it's not like the PUG can avoid FP.

The stocking stuffer one seems like a perfect example. To finish it, one has to go into FP, even if you normally wouldn't.

I took one look and said "Whelp, no free robot for me", because I really, really don't want to inflate the player numbers on a game mode I think is an utter failure.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Brain Cancer, on 01 January 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

When an event takes QP+FP to complete, it's not like the PUG can avoid FP.

The stocking stuffer one seems like a perfect example. To finish it, one has to go into FP, even if you normally wouldn't.

I took one look and said "Whelp, no free robot for me", because I really, really don't want to inflate the player numbers on a game mode I think is an utter failure.

And what's stopping other pugs from deciding that they don't get the free robot? They don't want to get better and they don't want to team up but they want to get the free stuff? They can't get *everything*.

[MischiefSC]

Brain Cancer, on 01 January 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

When an event takes QP+FP to complete, it's not like the PUG can avoid FP.

The stocking stuffer one seems like a perfect example. To finish it, one has to go into FP, even if you normally wouldn't.

I took one look and said "Whelp, no free robot for me", because I really, really don't want to inflate the player numbers on a game mode I think is an utter failure.

Yet for the event I call drops in QP and as such I have maybe 1 in 50 that didn't hit match score and I won 2 out of 3 matches, in QP.

So I played as a team in QP even though ostensibly QP is for being a solo. Yet if someone goes to FW, it needs to let them solo rando Rambo failboat and still achieve match score?

Wait, so if I'm trying to use teamwork and coordinate and that's giving more success in QP does that mean I'm exploiting? Cheating? Hax?

Clearly it's not fair to the other team 1 match in 3 because I'm winning more than I should in that regard, which means they're losing matches they would have won if I hadn't helped my team coordinate and communicate.

Should I be reported for that?

Except we all know that's ridiculous because teamwork is the core of the game. You're always on a team. It's a failure in player behavior no different than taking stock loadouts or terrible mech builds to not use teamwork. FW is even more teamwork intensive than QP is. It's an absolute minimum expectation for success in FW. You literally have to click past a warning telling you so to play FW.

Yet why the holy **** do we act like it's this surprise unreasonable expectation that in FW if you want to win you need to use some teamwork? We acknowledge that it's a good idea and that it wins matches in QP. We recognize that it's the underlying nature of the game. We even recognize that FW is more teamwork oriented by far than group or pug queue. Yet there's this absolute bull **** mentality that, unique to FW, you should be able to play in ways that get you a 0.8 w/l in QP, the least teamwork oriented mode in the game, and get a 1.0 w/l in FW or else FW is broken.

If you play like an idiot in group queue you'll get rolled a lot. Nobody even questions that. You certainly wouldn't take a bunch of random twits in random builds to comp queue and expect to not get mocked for showing up and wasting peoples time. Yet FW has this core of absolute terribads who refuse to put in the bare minimum effort to win - the bare minimum, and act like this is everyone elses problem.

Everyone in FW who is winning has pugged in FW. Nobody was just born fully formed with a 200 mech mechbay, excellent decks and with membership in a good unit. That's stupid. Everyone, every single person beating the people who are losing has been in the losing players shoes before. Many times. I've been repeatedly dropship farmed by Heimdlight on the Kurita/CSJ border back in the days, I've been farmed by KCom and numerous other good teams. Yet instead of crying and demanding it all change, everyone else who's ever played FW learned, bettered themselves and learned to avoid that.

That's why we all universally have so little empathy for the poor little helpless victims. We know nobody is trying to victimize anyone - we're just playing the game. You're shooting the stompy robots. Everyone on the winning side in every drop has been on the losing side plenty of times and put in the effort to get better. Nobody is playing to stomp anyone, they're just playing to win every match. When someone flat out refuses to do anything to improve or even be competitive and still shows up wanting the same rewards why are we all expected to change and adjust to give them the illusion that they're deserving of the same success as those who've put int the work to get it?

We're not even talking 'git gud'. Just 'suck less'. That's not a bar too high.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

MischiefSC, on 01 January 2018 - 07:33 PM, said:

Yet for the event I call drops in QP and as such I have maybe 1 in 50 that didn't hit match score and I won 2 out of 3 matches, in QP.

So I played as a team in QP even though ostensibly QP is for being a solo. Yet if someone goes to FW, it needs to let them solo rando Rambo failboat and still achieve match score?

Wait, so if I'm trying to use teamwork and coordinate and that's giving more success in QP does that mean I'm exploiting? Cheating? Hax?

Clearly it's not fair to the other team 1 match in 3 because I'm winning more than I should in that regard, which means they're losing matches they would have won if I hadn't helped my team coordinate and communicate.

Should I be reported for that?

Except we all know that's ridiculous because teamwork is the core of the game. You're always on a team. It's a failure in player behavior no different than taking stock loadouts or terrible mech builds to not use teamwork. FW is even more teamwork intensive than QP is. It's an absolute minimum expectation for success in FW. You literally have to click past a warning telling you so to play FW.

Yet why the holy **** do we act like it's this surprise unreasonable expectation that in FW if you want to win you need to use some teamwork? We acknowledge that it's a good idea and that it wins matches in QP. We recognize that it's the underlying nature of the game. We even recognize that FW is more teamwork oriented by far than group or pug queue. Yet there's this absolute bull **** mentality that, unique to FW, you should be able to play in ways that get you a 0.8 w/l in QP, the least teamwork oriented mode in the game, and get a 1.0 w/l in FW or else FW is broken.

If you play like an idiot in group queue you'll get rolled a lot. Nobody even questions that. You certainly wouldn't take a bunch of random twits in random builds to comp queue and expect to not get mocked for showing up and wasting peoples time. Yet FW has this core of absolute terribads who refuse to put in the bare minimum effort to win - the bare minimum, and act like this is everyone elses problem.

Everyone in FW who is winning has pugged in FW. Nobody was just born fully formed with a 200 mech mechbay, excellent decks and with membership in a good unit. That's stupid. Everyone, every single person beating the people who are losing has been in the losing players shoes before. Many times. I've been repeatedly dropship farmed by Heimdlight on the Kurita/CSJ border back in the days, I've been farmed by KCom and numerous other good teams. Yet instead of crying and demanding it all change, everyone else who's ever played FW learned, bettered themselves and learned to avoid that.

That's why we all universally have so little empathy for the poor little helpless victims. We know nobody is trying to victimize anyone - we're just playing the game. You're shooting the stompy robots. Everyone on the winning side in every drop has been on the losing side plenty of times and put in the effort to get better. Nobody is playing to stomp anyone, they're just playing to win every match. When someone flat out refuses to do anything to improve or even be competitive and still shows up wanting the same rewards why are we all expected to change and adjust to give them the illusion that they're deserving of the same success as those who've put int the work to get it?

We're not even talking 'git gud'. Just 'suck less'. That's not a bar too high.

Its really a bad case of the participation award generation having grown up. Only to realize that everything else in the world doesn't work like their parents or school tried to make it work.

[justcallme A S H]

Dakota1000, on 01 January 2018 - 07:46 PM, said:

Its really a bad case of the participation award generation having grown up. Only to realize that everything else in the world doesn't work like their parents or school tried to make it work.

I see it every single day @ work with all my staff.

"I want, I want, I want"... And when told no - It's full toys outta the pram level tanty.

[Brain Cancer]

Dakota1000, on 01 January 2018 - 07:15 PM, said:

And what's stopping other pugs from deciding that they don't get the free robot? They don't want to get better and they don't want to team up but they want to get the free stuff? They can't get *everything*.

The naive assumption that if they can do one half it reasonably easily, surely they can do the other. PGI -makes- it look easier, after all. You only need half the lootbags. And PGI needs the fodder to feed the FP queue.

That PGI also apparently failed to take the difficulty level of FP (read: no lube, bend over Mr. Pugsly and cough) into account before we hit maximum self-destruct salt thread says to me that I don't believe PGI realizes it either.
This points to a fun(less)damental disconnect between game company and the capacity of their playerbase. I don't even think PUGs deserve more than the right to surrender or mass-eject if they think they're incapable of playing an opponent, simply because there is no pretense of matchmaker.

You're outmatched and owned 12-0 in the first wave? Go ahead and pack up the dropships and leave. Heck, in most kinds of warfare if you lost 25% of your force without inflicting serious damage, you'd retreat before they killed you all. Zero rewards for retreating, mind you other than saving time, and the winning force of course gets what they did as a reward (and a short match). I think FP SHOULD scare green newbies off, some so badly they never touch the mode again because they don't belong there. There should be a "mercy rule".


At 12, 24, and 36 units destroyed, if the other side has not lost at least 25% of that number, offer the option to end the match immediately to the side that has lost overwhelming numbers via vote.

Of course, I also think that people shouldn't rant about it, or whine about the low player counts or the "cowards" fleeing when they realize the only thing they'll do is see how takes the longest to get to 4 dead robots while Dropship Pilot tries to increase his K/D record to larger numbers/1. If you don't want a matchmaker (and in FP, there shouldn't be one), your opponent should be able to concede. With a lockout afterwards. Say for an half hour. Do it again within 24? An hour, and the timer resets. Then two. Then four hours. And so on.

R&R is unequal. Everyone gets the same amount of time, though. Fair's fair in losing it, and QP is always open for business.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

Brain Cancer, on 01 January 2018 - 09:54 PM, said:

The naive assumption that if they can do one half it reasonably easily, surely they can do the other. PGI -makes- it look easier, after all. You only need half the lootbags. And PGI needs the fodder to feed the FP queue.

That PGI also apparently failed to take the difficulty level of FP (read: no lube, bend over Mr. Pugsly and cough) into account before we hit maximum self-destruct salt thread says to me that I don't believe PGI realizes it either.
This points to a fun(less)damental disconnect between game company and the capacity of their playerbase. I don't even think PUGs deserve more than the right to surrender or mass-eject if they think they're incapable of playing an opponent, simply because there is no pretense of matchmaker.

You're outmatched and owned 12-0 in the first wave? Go ahead and pack up the dropships and leave. Heck, in most kinds of warfare if you lost 25% of your force without inflicting serious damage, you'd retreat before they killed you all. Zero rewards for retreating, mind you other than saving time, and the winning force of course gets what they did as a reward (and a short match). I think FP SHOULD scare green newbies off, some so badly they never touch the mode again because they don't belong there. There should be a "mercy rule".


At 12, 24, and 36 units destroyed, if the other side has not lost at least 25% of that number, offer the option to end the match immediately to the side that has lost overwhelming numbers via vote.

Of course, I also think that people shouldn't rant about it, or whine about the low player counts or the "cowards" fleeing when they realize the only thing they'll do is see how takes the longest to get to 4 dead robots while Dropship Pilot tries to increase his K/D record to larger numbers/1. If you don't want a matchmaker (and in FP, there shouldn't be one), your opponent should be able to concede. With a lockout afterwards. Say for an half hour. Do it again within 24? An hour, and the timer resets. Then two. Then four hours. And so on.

R&R is unequal. Everyone gets the same amount of time, though. Fair's fair in losing it, and QP is always open for business.

I sure hope this is never a thing, ever like ever ever. In any sport ever, teaching people to give up and quit just because someone is better than them is the saddest most self defeating concept I can possibly think of. Some of my fondest memories in this game in FP are of coming back from down 12-1, 12-2, or 12-3 on the first wave, continuing to fight and eventually pulling it out. Some of my best memories from playing sports are the come from behind wins, the long shots, the underdog, that is what competition is all about, the will to win. You might as well make the game P v E or shut it down then, because what is the point if people can just pick and choose the fights they want to fight and ditch out when things get tough.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain, on 01 January 2018 - 10:30 PM, said:

I sure hope this is never a thing, ever like ever ever. In any sport ever, teaching people to give up and quit just because someone is better than them is the saddest most self defeating concept I can possibly think of. Some of my fondest memories in this game in FP are of coming back from down 12-1, 12-2, or 12-3 on the first wave, continuing to fight and eventually pulling it out. Some of my best memories from playing sports are the come from behind wins, the long shots, the underdog, that is what competition is all about, the will to win. You might as well make the game P v E or shut it down then, because what is the point if people can just pick and choose the fights they want to fight and ditch out when things get tough.

Its the same type of thing that I hate about all those MOBA games. Every once in awhile some friend will get me to play one with him and teams always surrender right when things start going bad for them. The game even makes it where the winning team has much longer respawn times than the losing team, so if you manage to kill a wave of the enemy you can do a full turn around just off of that. I really don't like the communities from there, just imagine everyone being one of the pugs from FW and being able to give up at any point in the game through a 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 5 vote between the losing team.

Edited by Dakota1000, 01 January 2018 - 10:59 PM.

[Dago Red]

Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain, on 01 January 2018 - 10:30 PM, said:

I sure hope this is never a thing, ever like ever ever. In any sport ever, teaching people to give up and quit just because someone is better than them is the saddest most self defeating concept I can possibly think of. Some of my fondest memories in this game in FP are of coming back from down 12-1, 12-2, or 12-3 on the first wave, continuing to fight and eventually pulling it out. Some of my best memories from playing sports are the come from behind wins, the long shots, the underdog, that is what competition is all about, the will to win. You might as well make the game P v E or shut it down then, because what is the point if people can just pick and choose the fights they want to fight and ditch out when things get tough.

While I actually agree with your sentiment about not giving up it's probably worth remembering that a pretty decent chunk of the community would in fact prefer a pve game like the previous titles and literally only play this because there is no other semi modern mechwarrior game.

That and it's my understanding that in most sports below the payed level just straight up dunking over and over again and running up the score against an opponent you wildly outclass is considered somewhat poor form. Like I get why it happens here as mashing the spuds faster gets you another shot at a more even opponent quicker. And I know the feeding frenzy mentality that happens when you realize the opponents are so insufficient that there isn't going to be enough meat to go around.

At the end of the day I drop with known friendly's and we will handily beat the majority of skittles so I come out on that side of it but there's no reason to be a **** to them while you're at it.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Dago Red, on 02 January 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

While I actually agree with your sentiment about not giving up it's probably worth remembering that a pretty decent chunk of the community would in fact prefer a pve game like the previous titles and literally only play this because there is no other semi modern mechwarrior game.

This said, I'm feeling the competition will increase greatly in MWO once MW5 comes out and pulls the players who just wanted a PvE game out of MWO.

[Dago Red]

Dakota1000, on 02 January 2018 - 12:52 AM, said:

This said, I'm feeling the competition will increase greatly in MWO once MW5 comes out and pulls the players who just wanted a PvE game out of MWO.

If it doesn't pull out so much of the population that it outright finally kills MWO then I agree it will be a positive for everyone involved.

[Vellron2005]

How does seal clubbing in FP happen?

Well.. there are certain steps to this..

1) The Matchmaker does a piss poor job of grouping a large organized (often competitive) group, Vs. random, unorganized pugs.

2) The pugs do what they do.. if they are attacking, they waste half their mechs trying to open the door by shooting at it instead of the gens, or by trading and sniping through the door instead of pushing in. If defending, they scatter, don't focus fire, and generally play for points instead of playing for the win. If in a non-siedge mode, they also scatter, don't focus fire, and play for individual points instead of the win.

3) The premade comp group push, focus fire, and employ tactics designed to maximize their use of the map and identical, per-fabricated builds such as SRM Linebackers, SRM Assassins, or combinations of Gauss/Laservomit, depending on their group style.

4) They annihilate the pug's first wave, then push out and spawn camp them.

5) The premade then stomp the pugs into the ground..

and there you go.. seal clubbing at it's finest.

Edited by Vellron2005, 02 January 2018 - 01:12 AM.

[El Bandito]

Brain Cancer, on 01 January 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

I took one look and said "Whelp, no free robot for me", because I really, really don't want to inflate the player numbers on a game mode I think is an utter failure.

Except what many pugs failed to realize was that Scouting is the best way to farm the FP. If they understood it and left Invasion mode alone, it would have resulted in far less frustration, for both sides.

[MischiefSC]

Vellron2005, on 02 January 2018 - 01:11 AM, said:

How does seal clubbing in FP happen?

Well.. there are certain steps to this..

1) The Matchmaker does a piss poor job of grouping a large organized (often competitive) group, Vs. random, unorganized pugs.

2) The pugs do what they do.. if they are attacking, they waste half their mechs trying to open the door by shooting at it instead of the gens, or by trading and sniping through the door instead of pushing in. If defending, they scatter, don't focus fire, and generally play for points instead of playing for the win. If in a non-siedge mode, they also scatter, don't focus fire, and play for individual points instead of the win.

3) The premade comp group push, focus fire, and employ tactics designed to maximize their use of the map and identical, per-fabricated builds such as SRM Linebackers, SRM Assassins, or combinations of Gauss/Laservomit, depending on their group style.

4) They annihilate the pug's first wave, then push out and spawn camp them.

5) The premade then stomp the pugs into the ground..

and there you go.. seal clubbing at it's finest.

Please list for me the comp groups in FW.

1) there is no matchmaker in FW because it's supposed to be about faction vs faction combat - the goal is not individual matches but the taking of planets.

2) I play with and against good pugs all the time. You're not talking about pugs, you're talking about terribads. Those are in units too. I see units that play like that all the time. Premade teams.

3) I don't know anyone who takes all identical builds. It's really rare to even get 12 people in the same type of mech, when that happens they're never all the same build. Usually it's just about speed or performance synergy. Pugs also do this if they haven't totally wasted pre-match time.

4) this isn't about pugs, it's about bads. It certainly happens to units often enough.

5) In any match the better team wins by killing the other team if opportunity permits. QP, group queue or FW. FW is unique only in that everyone has 4 mechs so it's more apparent. I would say the majority of QP matches I play there would be spawn camping if QP had respawns.

Seal clubbing is when you have a significant disparity of skill or performance between teams. It's not so much about pugs vs premades because there are good pugs and there are terrible, terrible premades (in group queue the other day I saw 2mans that took locusts and lights, utterly ******* their team for tonnage, I saw a 4man in like 4 or 5 drops where none of them broke a 100 - and usually 3 of them were in Annihilators. If you play around/with/against premades very often you'll get a long list of examples of premades being as bad as the worst pugs).

Players are just players. Making a premade or getting on TS gives no magic powers. Better players tend to get into groups because it's a 12 v 12 game, it's built around teamwork and that helps teamwork but it doesn't create things that were not already there.

[The Basilisk]

Asym, on 27 December 2017 - 10:25 PM, said:

Just don't play faction play and allow you self to be farmed: even if the game fails due to lack of population...... The hard right versus the easy wrong....

Entire teams of experienced players DO NOT PLAY FP...... (FP stands for "Farming Players")

That should say enough, in and of itself. Seal clubbing is an anti-social, sociopathic video game syndrome elite players created out of bordum and their fears of playing other elite players and clubbing appeases their intense desire for power and then they build entire teams of like players to self justify ill-rationale behaviors which knowingly drives new players out of MWO and causes teams to avoid this play style.....ergo, those who club and farm are not the role modelsl but, rather are the agents of this games population decline in many ways.... "Get GuD" does not mean lose all ethics and sportsmanship.... "Get GuD" isn't a pass for antisocial behavior even if they say "its' just a game for heavens sake".

This over and over again.
Had such an encounter on 31.12. with the "BAD" ones, you know the unit where the name already says they would be evil.
Best thing about this was that only 4 of them carried their unit tag and four others drove alt accounts to avoid getting discos from the enemy right on sight and maximizing the farming potential.
All in laservomit Hellbringers, in FP on caustic valley going straight for our spawn and camped us there.
And it did not stop there.
Instead of beeing at least fair and walking in when their mechs got damaged beyond a certain point, every mech that got damaged retreated and ejected.

Deliberate usage of onesided walls, invisible wall spotting and every other abusable gamefeature or better softspot of the game used ....and all in a single match.

It is about knowingly exploiting irreconcilable advantages over others that makes you the dirty hole in the A.

This is no skill.
Skill would be taking a bunch of Awsomes and Orions and still rock a match versus a Clanmech premade that remotely knows what they are doing.

And when a group of players deliberately sets out with the explicit goal to beat every singly cheesy bit of advantage over other players out of a game...this is called sealclubbing....and a company such as PGI that got such customers would be well advised to shun such miscreants.

Edited by The Basilisk, 02 January 2018 - 02:31 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

The Basilisk, on 02 January 2018 - 02:20 AM, said:

This over and over again.
Had such an encounter on 31.12. with the "BAD" ones, you know the unit where the name already says they would be evil.
Best thing about this was that only 4 of them carried their unit tag and four others drove alt accounts to avoid getting discos from the enemy right on sight and maximizing the farming potential.
All in laservomit Hellbringers, in FP on caustic valley going straight for our spawn and camped us there.
And it did not stop there.
Instead of beeing at least fair and walking in when their mechs got damaged beyond a certain point, every mech that got damaged retreated and ejected.

Deliberate usage of onesided walls, invisible wall spotting and every other abusable gamefeature or better softspot of the game used ....and all in a single match.

It is about knowingly exploiting irreconcilable advantages over others that makes you the dirty hole in the A.

This is no skill.
Skill would be taking a bunch of Awsomes and Orions and still rock a match versus a Clanmech premade that remotely knows what they are doing.

And when a group of players deliberately sets out with the explicit goal to beat every singly cheesy bit of advantage over other players out of a game...this is called sealclubbing....and a company such as PGI that got such customers would be well advised to shun such miscreants.

Boy do I love EVIL. They became the monsters that the pugs kept trying to make groups out to be, the real boogeyman to run them off. I just have a love for when one group of people says another group of people is bad when they really aren't so bad and a portion of that group decides to show them what bad really is. Like a slap in the face that says enough is enough.

As for Asym's post, yeah, its totally the people who work together and socialize with eachother that are antisocial, totally not the guys who refuse to talk to eachother, work together, or think about anyone but themselves.