423 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Edit in going into the detail about the battle where AI controlled Ota does some amazing **** with a stolen Heavy Rifle which sparked my interest and amazement into Rifles... I forgot the screen grabs of Mech Factory about the Rifles which show they are both Rifled or Smooth Bore (depends on the brand). Inserted them in with this edit.

Dont LRM me please, on 12 January 2018 - 09:08 AM, said:

Ok I guess you're right, but what that other poster said, I think I still prefer single-shot cannons because they're funner, skill based and the like. When I saw your video I think it's a great idea, to have many variants of the same autocannon class, but maybe I think the single-shot cannons should have some disadvantages like heat or less ammo per ton to give the multi-shot cannons a reason to be used.

And rifles are not that good though, I'm sure they have awful fire rates and a measley 9 damage per shot with the heaviest rifle is kind of lacking. Also why are they called rifles if rifled barrels were abandoned in the late 19th century for smoothbore barrels? Idk they seem ******.

One little thing to remember is yes, the Rifles have a terrible rate, but that's 6 to 9 damage in a single shot and a reload to aim and fire again), in the same time that many 3 to 20 shot AC/5s will take to fire, net 5 damage, reload and begin spraying again.

Far as that other caveat you mentioned...
Rifles are both Rifled or Smooth bore. Much like tank cannons of today are also either Rifled or Smooth bore.




Mech Factory, an awesome source for all things Battletech.
They are called Rifles because they were originally carried in the mech's hands, as were the early Autocannon/5s (in fact they were swappable). Do you recall the example I gave earlier in the thread about the few good things that came from the Dark Ages (namely semi-fleshed out non-military mechs going above and beyond just a Cattlemaster and Harvester, and really getting into combat in populated areas filled with civilians, along with haphazardly put together abominations, a police force that intervenes against military invaders, etc..?

In it, I mentioned that after putting a set of three characters plus a set of clones of the three characters against each other in various custom made mechs as a test bed and giving each character its own AI player with a set personality that matches each character's clone version as well... I was given the surprise that a brash impatient, blitzer style character would not only do heroic things to protect both an enemy and an ally pilot from the 'horrors of battle' in a nearly self-sacrificing way, but did numerous things that I didn't even know could be done in Battletech. (Who knew you could pick up pilots for the sake of carrying them? Yes it makes sense but in a traditional tabletop match when and why would you do it? Did you know that if a weapon is considered Jettison capable under quirks, not only can it be abandoned on a whim but it can be picked up and utilized by any mech with hands, provided the hands are functional, even if the mech is otherwise quite compromised?)
Short story telling the events of Actual Gameplay from Megamek using every compatible rule I could put a check box on.

Spoiler

Anyway, "Ota" not only saved both an ally pilot and an enemy pilot but then used a forest for cover which soaked up some of the damage from incoming fire, then stuffed the friendly pilot into a building to hide that pilot from enemies, shoved the enemy pilot into its cargo bay (to keep the prisoner imprisoned), and now with its hands free it took a dismembered arm from another mech and tried to use it as a club. Ota got his *** handed to him as he went against Noa Izumi's clone, whose accuracy is subpar but makes up for it in piloting skill and melee combat, able to throw 3 punches in the time a normal pilot could throw two, and two kicks in the time a normal pilot could throw just one basic kick. He made up for this by getting some distance, peppering with his machine gun and then shortly after, charging in, tackling in such a way that even after they separated the other mech skid into a building, fell into the basement where she lost consciousness, and in the process of the melee combat earlier she was forced to abandon her Heavy Rifle.

Ota picked this rifle up, took out the last remaining enemy. Yep the guy whom kept blinding Ota this entire time with smoke-filled SRMs to keep Ota's accuracy to being almost non-existent, but in this one stroke of luck the guy missed his target, allowing Ota a 10 second reprive from smoke in order to get off a single shot. Boom. Headshot against commercial armor with a Barrier Armor Rating of 5. A full 9 damage to the cockpit, enemy instantly killed by using a STOLEN Heavy Rifle. He then proceeds to disable the unconscious pilot's engine with a called CT shot [called shots are those that the enemy cannot react to and thus reduces the RNG involved in hitting it since no defensive action can be taken]). With the final enemy mech having a disabled engine, the test battle concludes with two prisoners and one dead pilot, against a living mech and two living allied pilots (irrelevant to the events of the final minute of battle, Ota had also saved the other pilot whom was stuffed into the cargo bay before the enemy pilot was, filling the small bay's 2 person occupancy which is why he put the final ally pilot into a building.)

So that was amazing! It was one of the things that showed me just how breathtaking the Battletech tabletop could actually be when you go far beyond the basics.

Back to handheld weapons such as Rifles and early ACs. After that eye opener I got really into finding more about hand-held weapons that were actually hand held. Trouble is... hand-held weapons were generally slower to reload even if they were more dynamically capable in an era where mechs were also more dynamically capable. Wolverines for example were known to drop or place their weapon down in order to duke it out with an enemy up close and personal before retrieving their weapon to deliver finishing blows. There's even a ruleset for "Grappling" with an enemy mech, as well as details listing what weight could be picked up by what weight class, which includes cargo, improvised weapons, and enemy units up to but not limited by enemy mechs. Keep in mind we're not talking about Dragons throwing Commandos (as the two are actually of terrifyingly similar heights) but while we won't see King Kong style tank hurling, you'll certainly see what looks like one wrestler trying to pick up another wrestler under an effort of great strain and torn Myomer Muscles akin to the Major ripping open a tank. (Warning: Youtube-approved Colorless nudity made disturbing by artificial muscles rippling, ripping, and mechanical android and tank dismemberment. You have been warned.)

Just as easily as the Wolverine can drop his AC/5 to slug it out with someone, someone else could pick it up for a single cassette's use (5 damage). (I do need to point out in the short story as I often forget to include the detail is that yes Ota stole Noa's Heavy Rifle and fired two shots in what I said. Her rifle was ONLY good for just one shot since he didn't have her ammunition. So how did he fire a second shot? Technically he didn't -- from that Rifle. How did he get the second shot then? Ota abandoned Izumi's and took the other guy's Heavy Rifle after killing him with Izumi's Rifle.)

Back to Rifles as handhelds, the only mech that has the Rifle actively mounted in the stock build rather than an optional replacement is the Arbiter is also a bit of an exception of them being traditionally hand-held, it is built into the mech and not a hand-held improvisation. That makes me sad because for some reason I remember it being a hand that held the Rifle underneath the arm... but apparently I am remembering wrong.



I suppose,

you could consider what the power armor to be carrying as a Autocannon.
...and what the Major gets from Saito to be a "Rifle."
Ultimately the firepower is similar in the same time span (as earlier in the fight, one power armor was tricked into firing on another and it took numerous shots to get the deed done, but uh, here the real skill is in the Rifle since their actual damage is comparable...
(Especially if you're using it with a broken arm while pissed off.)

On the same topic, this "Full sensing automatic rifle" versus "bolt action" video not only makes a great comparison for the King Crab short story "The Hangar Queen's Bluff", but for this topic as well, as for why an automatic weapon that could be used tactically is superior to a slower firing weapon. Admittedly both of these weapons shown are of the same caliber so the bolt action had no edge and if there was one to be had, as the sniper himself surmised, it would have been an issue with the user. Sadly that was the bluff.

Again, they're both the same caliber.. skill goes to the single shot due to inferior firing rate.

Much like the Hangar Queen, aka the King Crab, bluffed in the hypothetical situation presented by a veteran Mech jock to a rookie -- the KGC closed its claws to pretend it was reloading.... when in fact models that had to 'reload' (KGC 000) are almost extinct, though their more powerful 120mm 3 round burst, 12 shot magazine Deathgivers are still legend... the more commonly seen KGC 0000 has 80mm fully automatic belt fed ACs that are inherently quite a bit weaker per shot, but no down time to reload and no need to stop firing except due to barrel heat (covered under the TacOps' rapid fire autocannon rule).

Far as skill based, as you said it would take more skill to take out the guy with the multi-shot AC before he takes you out? Sure he'll pepper spray you dead, but you have a weapon that can instantly kill a mech via a cockpit shot if you can make that shot.

But then again, if like in MWO's setup all you have to do is point and click.. Hardly any skill there.
Then as either the Rifle or a single shot AC, you've got a noob tube in Call of Duty.
And that guy with multi-shot AC now has to have the advanced skills of planting all the shots of his 'spray circle' onto you. Even if he doesn't have one, similar to Clan UACs in MWO or the RAC... try getting all the shots to land on spot to do the same damage as that single shot AC of the same class does...

and you'll find that there's a LOT more skill involved in a multi-shot AC. Especially at range.

Because without using skill... try hitting something consistently.. Heh.
In fact at one point I stop the multi-firing to reduce the skill quotient necessary to hit the enemy with my maximum damage output more easily. Thus demonstrating as early as 2012... that more skill is necessary for "spray and prey" style ACs (when you consider that single shot is a lot more damage than multi shot).

Edited by Koniving, 12 January 2018 - 11:03 AM.

[Koniving]

(Yes. I went full circle on you, proving that there is more skill in a single shot weapon.. and then blatantly pointing out that there's more skill in a multi-shot weapon when it is of inferior damage to time potential.
Which in the Rifle case, yes, there's more skill in an AC/5 over a Heavy Rifle since the Rifle does more damage.
In the case of a single shot AC/20 [or any single shot AC] over a multi shot AC/20 [or any matching multi-shot AC], the higher skill requirement is in favor of the multi-shot AC as it is inherently inferior.)

(Side note: A solution I came up with about a few days after making that autocannons comparison video, is that by making the reload and fire rate 1 second longer, cutting the DPS from 5 to 4, made the single shot AC/20 a viable option that did not overshadow the inferior multi-shot versions, and left the multi-shot versions appealing to the point that a debate over which was better was pretty neutral grounded on "circumstance" rather than "outright." One's better for pop-and-squatting, another's better for rushing, one's better for dealing with a threat that isn't aware of you, the other's better at dealing with lights that are too hard to slug with a single blast...etc. And while both being at 5 DPS [that is one firing cycle per 4 seconds] left the single shot AC/20 superior in any standing confrontation as regardless of who shoots first the single shot one would win due to instant delivery of damage, having the single shot AC/20 at a 4 DPS rate [5 seconds between firings] left the issue up to who actually pulled the trigger first and even then, unless they were also moving or defending themselves, the multi-shot version would win... and if they were moving it boiled down to skill to determine who could actually pull off victory using just their respective version of the AC/20.)

Edited by Koniving, 12 January 2018 - 10:40 AM.

[IllCaesar]

MovinTarget, on 12 January 2018 - 04:22 AM, said:

Warthog was my assault jam.

The think that the Warthog would end up being very popular, the shoo-in if any of the Mektek mechs were to make their way in. I'd personally like to see the Privateer make its way in just because I'd like to see more interesting additions to the universe with the mechs and a new pirate mech would a good way to do it. I'm also a sucker for those oblong, humanoid chassis.

[Magam Flamesmith]

Koniving, on 12 January 2018 - 05:15 AM, said:

...
But well, the game's so far along that even if this could make the game better, there'd be so much against it....

Given that the only other game in the series (Mechwarrior - not the TT game) to use sized hardpoints was MW4?
And all the outright garbage Microsoft pulled in that game? (take a look at MW4's take on the Summoner for example)

I am not surprised that PGI chose not to even try sized hardpoints.

[MovinTarget]

Magam Flamesmith, on 12 January 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

Given that the only other game in the series (Mechwarrior - not the TT game) to use sized hardpoints was MW4?
And all the outright garbage Microsoft pulled in that game? (take a look at MW4's take on the Summoner for example)

I am not surprised that PGI chose not to even try sized hardpoints.

Yeah, I am really not trying to be a PGI apologist, but anyone who sees all this vitriol and think MWO is so much worse that any previous MW game either has selective memory loss, or didn't take into account that forums such as this didn't exist (or at least weren't as prevalent/accessible) when other MW titles came out.

[Koniving]

Magam Flamesmith, on 12 January 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

Given that the only other game in the series (Mechwarrior - not the TT game) to use sized hardpoints was MW4?
And all the outright garbage Microsoft pulled in that game? (take a look at MW4's take on the Summoner for example)

I am not surprised that PGI chose not to even try sized hardpoints.

Yeah. At that point though, Microsoft owned it outright. I'm sure it was done to give some flavor, but at quite some cost.
In all fairness, though, even them you had this issue.

Granted this is with the optional removing heat....

Also the low number of mechs compared to MWO and as a sudden shift from previous mech games.. Any sudden shift isn't likely to get well received no matter what.

I do need to point out though that while "Mechwarrior Tactics" became a flop since the publisher lost the rights to it when PGI gave them the boot, the game had a lot of promise in its sized equipment hardpoint system. You could do any equipment of equal or smaller size in each allotted space but had the issue that some spaces are bigger than others, and as such you could waste them with something small but that was it the space was gone.
(Am also a fan in how it allowed for simultaineous display of turn-based combat and wished that Battletech did it; BT did experiment with it but like with Frozen Synapse, a pre-plan for both sides watch the results style of gameplay can lead to "Why didn't you fire sooner" and "No, no turn the corner and then shoot you moron!" style problems which is why they went more Final Fantasy Tactics in their implementation.)
Frozen Synapse is a take turn game where turns are "planned" in 5 second intervals, where your plan can last longer but you're likely to make changes depending on the impending situation, and predictions must be made on what you think the other side will do as they are trying to anticipate and counter what you might do. The end result ultimately can be played out in real time (and is available at the end of a match to see how it would have looked in real time) such as this example here.

Final Fantasy Tactics, you move first then attack, then they move and attack, and it goes like this either for your whole side or on a per unit basis.

Hard locking sized hardpoints as MW4 did, too, would likely be a mistake.
That's one of the reasons I like Battletech's kinda obtuse little softpoint setup. Yes you can run anything...and yes whether or not you can do it well depends on the Technicians which isn't applicable here.

But one could modify that a bit to suit a game of MWO's format. You can use matching equipment type and sizes for a single hardpoint. Or split the hardpoint into smaller ones... or combine two or more equal hardpoints to get a bigger one. (This also eliminates the necessity for smaller weapons to outfire the bigger ones, but one thing at a time best to see how this works out first). Absolutely crucial, though, is that every weapon should have multiple viable uses otherwise such a system would only favor mechs that can mount big toys. Front loaded damage is also another great issue in such a system, as bigger or more numerous smaller weapons will always trump something with fewer, or weaker weapons if all weapons are front loaded in their damage delivery.
(Wrong = My noob tube is better in every way over your little laser poker so bring bigger pokers to outdo me or don't play!
Right = My noob tube has quite an advantage over your little laser poker if I can land my shot, and but while a bigger set of laser pokers would probably assuredly do me in if they can keep hitting me, those little things could be my achillea's heel if you have some skill since while weak they deliver damage faster than the strong pokers.)

There should be a limit to how far this rabbit hole goes before we have a King Crab sporting 18 Light Machine Guns, of course, but the notion is worth entertaining in some future title. I have a feeling that if any future MW game is going to try it.... then Mechwarrior 5 Mercs will.

After all, a "genuine" mechlab won't be there. Instead customization is "granular" with weapon variants, etc. Also experimenting with this is Battletech by Harebrained. Unknown if either are using sized hardpoints, but it stands to reason. Both want to keep the flavor of the mech, and as stated by one of the designers at Harebrained, "If you give them full customization, they'll take a mech and build anything.." at which point why even have a variety of mechs?

[Koniving]

Side note: I think I know where Pulse Lasers lost their identity.



"Laser machine guns."

Yet in MW4... we're seeing short duration, rapid damage delivery like in MWO.
Meanwhile in MW3, you held the button to determine how long you would fire the laser machine guns, and it took a bit longer holding on to the target and keeping the mouse on them in order to accrue superior damage to a normal laser... and heat built up gradually. But the reward was superior damage to a standard or ER laser within the time an ER laser could be fired again The hold beam style also made it incredibly useful against infantry, vehicles, airborne targets... like the fluff.


Sadly we had a in Mw3... which probably prompted the use of hardpoints in general.


So yes, in many ways past MW games were terrible.

Edited by Koniving, 12 January 2018 - 12:23 PM.

[Conner Ward]

Koniving, on 12 January 2018 - 12:21 PM, said:

Side note: I think I know where Pulse Lasers lost their identity.

So yes, in many ways past MW games were terrible.

MW2 and the Ghost Bear's Legacy expansions we're awesome for their times, I played both extensively, although not multiplayer, because I did not have internet access back then and I did not even know that multiplayer was available for those games at the time.

[Koniving]

Conner Ward, on 12 January 2018 - 06:15 PM, said:

MW2 and the Ghost Bear's Legacy expansions we're awesome for their times, I played both extensively, although not multiplayer, because I did not have internet access back then and I did not even know that multiplayer was available for those games at the time.

Indeed.

Also fun fact:
Did you know that EarthSiege was, in fact, the original MW2 before FASA changed who was developing their game to Activision?
Earthsiege, StarSiege and by extension its entire universe exists exclusively because when development was almost complete, FASA chose a different group. Worth noting Dynamix had Mechwarrior 2 almost done by 1993, and spent barely a year changing its assets around to make EarthSiege.

The MW2 we all know... came out in 1996.



In the EarthSiege 2 video, the cockpit view is extremely reminiscent (including the angle of it) to the mechbay view from their Mechwarrior 2 prototype which I really wish I could find it, as it is the only image of the "stilted" version of the Catapult to have ever been in a game. (For comparison, what I call the "stunted" or "Shunt" legged Catapult which is the one normally put into games in whatever loose manner. Note: Both are canonical.)



So, I have always noted the similarities in storyline. Earth versus Mars is the Inner Sphere conflicts with itself. Prometheus which left Earth and is now coming back to attack is a much more cynical Kerensky and its Cybrids are the Clans.
Interesting, no?

(Also interesting: Fans put this together in 2006. Infantry, tanks, jets, "Hercs" in massive online battles in massive [though mostly empty] fields Battlefield style. The project died, of course, but... goes to show what we the players whom, as PGI put it, "know nothing of game development" could do as a hobby.)

Expanding on the info here, is this big youtube documentary, which almost immediately gives them credit for making the first "Mechwarrior" game. Which is the third PC game for the Battletech universe (both of the prior were titled "Battletech" with a subtitle.)

Edited by Koniving, 12 January 2018 - 07:49 PM.

[Arkhangel]

IllCaesar, on 12 January 2018 - 10:53 AM, said:

The think that the Warthog would end up being very popular, the shoo-in if any of the Mektek mechs were to make their way in. I'd personally like to see the Privateer make its way in just because I'd like to see more interesting additions to the universe with the mechs and a new pirate mech would a good way to do it. I'm also a sucker for those oblong, humanoid chassis.

Deimos would be more likely to come in first, as it's the one mech out of the pack that was made canon. Warthog would probably be right on its heels though. that said, all the actual in-lore mechs would be more likely to get in first in there, like the Avatar, Behemoth, and so on.

[BTGbullseye]

Koniving, on 12 January 2018 - 07:36 PM, said:

Indeed.

Also fun fact:
Did you know that EarthSiege was, in fact, the original MW2 before FASA changed who was developing their game to Activision?
Earthsiege, StarSiege and by extension its entire universe exists exclusively because when development was almost complete, FASA chose a different group. Worth noting Dynamix had Mechwarrior 2 almost done by 1993, and spent barely a year changing its assets around to make EarthSiege.

The MW2 we all know... came out in 1996.



In the EarthSiege 2 video, the cockpit view is extremely reminiscent (including the angle of it) to the mechbay view from their Mechwarrior 2 prototype which I really wish I could find it, as it is the only image of the "stilted" version of the Catapult to have ever been in a game. (For comparison, what I call the "stunted" or "Shunt" legged Catapult which is the one normally put into games in whatever loose manner. Note: Both are canonical.)



So, I have always noted the similarities in storyline. Earth versus Mars is the Inner Sphere conflicts with itself. Prometheus which left Earth and is now coming back to attack is a much more cynical Kerensky and its Cybrids are the Clans.
Interesting, no?

(Also interesting: Fans put this together in 2006. Infantry, tanks, jets, "Hercs" in massive online battles in massive [though mostly empty] fields Battlefield style. The project died, of course, but... goes to show what we the players whom, as PGI put it, "know nothing of game development" could do as a hobby.)

Expanding on the info here, is this big youtube documentary, which almost immediately gives them credit for making the first "Mechwarrior" game. Which is the third PC game for the Battletech universe (both of the prior were titled "Battletech" with a subtitle.)

Earthsiege was my favorite. I tried Mechwarrior, but couldn't stand going to it from the Earthsiege games. It's unfortunate that that subsection of the Starsiege universe died out completely, same with the Cyberstorm subsection.

[Conner Ward]

Koniving, on 12 January 2018 - 07:36 PM, said:

Indeed.

Also fun fact:
Did you know that EarthSiege was, in fact, the original MW2 before FASA changed who was developing their game to Activision?
Earthsiege, StarSiege and by extension its entire universe exists exclusively because whe itn development was almost complete, FASA chose a different group. Worth noting Dynamix had Mechwarrior 2 almost done by 1993, and spent barely a year changing its assets around to make EarthSiege.

The MW2 we all know... came out in 1996.



In the EarthSiege 2 video, the cockpit view is extremely reminiscent (including the angle of it) to the mechbay view from their Mechwarrior 2 prototype which I really wish I could find it, as it is the only image of the "stilted" version of the Catapult to have ever been in a game. (For comparison, what I call the "stunted" or "Shunt" legged Catapult which is the one normally put into games in whatever loose manner. Note: Both are canonical.)



So, I have always noted the similarities in storyline. Earth versus Mars is the Inner Sphere conflicts with itself. Prometheus which left Earth and is now coming back to attack is a much more cynical Kerensky and its Cybrids are the Clans.
Interesting, no?

(Also interesting: Fans put this together in 2006. Infantry, tanks, jets, "Hercs" in massive online battles in massive [though mostly empty] fields Battlefield style. The project died, of course, but... goes to show what we the players whom, as PGI put it, "know nothing of game development" could do as a hobby.)

Expanding on the info here, is this big youtube documentary, which almost immediately gives them credit for making the first "Mechwarrior" game. Which is the third PC game for the Battletech universe (both of the prior were titled "Battletech" with a subtitle.)

That is an interesting fact! I actually played Earthsiege, but I never knew that it was at all associated with FASA's BATTLETECH. It was fun for a while, but ultimately was not BATTLETECH. Also, wasn't Earthsiege on the Microsoft gaming network, that never really worked out?

Edited by Conner Ward, 13 January 2018 - 01:08 AM.

[BTGbullseye]

Conner Ward, on 13 January 2018 - 01:04 AM, said:

Also, wasn't Earthsiege on the Microsoft gaming network, that never really worked out?

Earthsiege was long before that...

[Pz_DC]

Over-over-and-over-again.... What the reason to buy any pack except collectors?! There are NOTHING unique=NOTHING to waste money at. ALL content, except collectors unique (S) 'mech, will be available to everyone - so why pay money for thing that can be taken without it?!... Sad to see peoples paying FOR NOTHING and say "oh thanks!" for that...
P.S. Yes, ability to have 'mech faster then any other is absolutely NOTHING. Most of us are forced to buy those packs just to be able to get anniversary rewards...

[Angus McFife VI]

Koniving please... TL;DR.

Ok I read some of it but jesus christ man....

Koniving, on 12 January 2018 - 10:36 AM, said:

(Yes. I went full circle on you, proving that there is more skill in a single shot weapon.. and then blatantly pointing out that there's more skill in a multi-shot weapon when it is of inferior damage to time potential.
Which in the Rifle case, yes, there's more skill in an AC/5 over a Heavy Rifle since the Rifle does more damage.
In the case of a single shot AC/20 [or any single shot AC] over a multi shot AC/20 [or any matching multi-shot AC], the higher skill requirement is in favor of the multi-shot AC as it is inherently inferior.)

(Side note: A solution I came up with about a few days after making that autocannons comparison video, is that by making the reload and fire rate 1 second longer, cutting the DPS from 5 to 4, made the single shot AC/20 a viable option that did not overshadow the inferior multi-shot versions, and left the multi-shot versions appealing to the point that a debate over which was better was pretty neutral grounded on "circumstance" rather than "outright." One's better for pop-and-squatting, another's better for rushing, one's better for dealing with a threat that isn't aware of you, the other's better at dealing with lights that are too hard to slug with a single blast...etc. And while both being at 5 DPS [that is one firing cycle per 4 seconds] left the single shot AC/20 superior in any standing confrontation as regardless of who shoots first the single shot one would win due to instant delivery of damage, having the single shot AC/20 at a 4 DPS rate [5 seconds between firings] left the issue up to who actually pulled the trigger first and even then, unless they were also moving or defending themselves, the multi-shot version would win... and if they were moving it boiled down to skill to determine who could actually pull off victory using just their respective version of the AC/20.)

Alright I get it but in MWO the velocity of the AC/20 is so slow you need to be a master to hit moving enemies on intended components, which I've mastered doing. With the multishot AC's you can spray and get some damage on a moving enemy but with the single shot if you miss then you will do zero damage or hit the wrong component. Most enemies in MWO are moving. Overall I see single shot as high risk high reward and multishot as low risk weapon. If someone is standing still you will probably not miss and if they're moving then this rule applies.

Anyway I still think different autocannon variants would be nice, different rounds per click etc, each with their own advantages.

Edited by Dont LRM me please, 13 January 2018 - 12:03 PM.

[MovinTarget]

Unnatural Selection, on 13 January 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

Over-over-and-over-again.... What the reason to buy any pack except collectors?! There are NOTHING unique=NOTHING to waste money at. ALL content, except collectors unique (S) 'mech, will be available to everyone - so why pay money for thing that can be taken without it?!... Sad to see peoples paying FOR NOTHING and say "oh thanks!" for that...
P.S. Yes, ability to have 'mech faster then any other is absolutely NOTHING. Most of us are forced to buy those packs just to be able to get anniversary rewards...

The only reasons I would buy a collectors is b/c I wanted 2 of one of the chassis and/or wanted the extra swag.

The value of the collectors pack would improve *if* they changed it so that you could get any of the non-hero variants as the "collectors" version, you just pick one.

[Conner Ward]

Unnatural Selection, on 13 January 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

Over-over-and-over-again.... What the reason to buy any pack except collectors?! There are NOTHING unique=NOTHING to waste money at. ALL content, except collectors unique (S) 'mech, will be available to everyone - so why pay money for thing that can be taken without it?!... Sad to see peoples paying FOR NOTHING and say "oh thanks!" for that...
P.S. Yes, ability to have 'mech faster then any other is absolutely NOTHING. Most of us are forced to buy those packs just to be able to get anniversary rewards...

I needed a medium Mech for scouting since I started during the end of the stocking stuffer event and I wanted a decent Clan Mech that is appropriate for Clan Wolf in Exile, so I bought the standard Arctic Wolf pack. I don't really think that I will ever use any variant other than the Prime variant, since I like the JJs and I like running a streak boat (hate me for that if you want, I don't care,I play what I like), so the other two variants are prettymuch just there to give me optional omnipods. Hey, I did get a title and icon with the pack and the 30 days of premium time has been nice for getting XP and C-Bills, so I now have a Mech for every weight class except light.

[Koniving]

Dont LRM me please, on 13 January 2018 - 12:02 PM, said:

Koniving please... TL;DR.

Ok I read some of it but jesus christ man....



Alright I get it but in MWO the velocity of the AC/20 is so slow you need to be a master to hit moving enemies on intended components, which I've mastered doing. With the multishot AC's you can spray and get some damage on a moving enemy but with the single shot if you miss then you will do zero damage or hit the wrong component. Most enemies in MWO are moving. Overall I see single shot as high risk high reward and multishot as low risk weapon. If someone is standing still you will probably not miss and if they're moving then this rule applies.

Anyway I still think different autocannon variants would be nice, different rounds per click etc, each with their own advantages.

PGI keeps it slow because it is so overpowered (especially if you consider that mechs have half the structure and armor and no armor quirks in the source material). Even then, they raised the head structure to 15 (instead of the double of 6) so that head armor/structure would stack to 15+18 = 33... making the AC/20 the only gun the instantly get headshots with a pair, when a Gauss Rifle was all you actually needed and the best weapon for the job.

But that's sort of the thing... the shots don't need to be slow, in fact they need to be fast to compete with lasers. They are just slow because they are front loaded. In terms of physics, the bigger a shot is, the faster it needs to go if you want it to go far and do more damage. You'd need a big caliber bullet to go at least as fast as a smaller caliber bullet if you want to do superior damage, otherwise it'll probably just do the same amount of damage or less.

As depicted in MWO, satisfying or not...
the AC/20 would do about as much damage as bullet bill here.

and since the bullet size of the AC/20 and the AC/2 are exactly identical..

The green "missiles" are AC rounds in MWO's models.
The sabot-shaped shots are "Gauss" slugs. And the strange white bottle rockets are missiles.

So AC/20 doing 20 damage as PGI shows it is physically impossible.
But hey... its PGI.
Somehow MWO wants us to believe that these are the things that are so universally applicable that they can be used to shoot down droves of infantry in a single rating, destroy or cripple vehicles, be good for destroying VTOL craft due to their rapid rate of fire and high projectile velocity (what velocity?), etc...

Yeah.
Still. This is a bit more satisfying to me. At least then I'd know if I got swarmed by helicopters I'd have an actual option of defense... rather than knowing my 6 million cbill mech could be taken out by a helicopter that costs less than 600 thousand due to not being able to hit it.

Edited by Koniving, 13 January 2018 - 02:48 PM.

[Conner Ward]

@Koniving In tabletop and MegaMek, VTOLs are incredibly poweful because some carry heavy weapons, move fast enough to build up incredible to-hit modifiers and fly up out of range of a Mech's weaponry.

[Angus McFife VI]

Koniving, on 13 January 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

PGI keeps it slow because it is so overpowered (especially if you consider that mechs have half the structure and armor and no armor quirks in the source material). Even then, they raised the head structure to 15 (instead of the double of 6) so that head armor/structure would stack to 15+18 = 33... making the AC/20 the only gun the instantly get headshots with a pair, when a Gauss Rifle was all you actually needed and the best weapon for the job.

But that's sort of the thing... the shots don't need to be slow, in fact they need to be fast to compete with lasers. They are just slow because they are front loaded. In terms of physics, the bigger a shot is, the faster it needs to go if you want it to go far and do more damage. You'd need a big caliber bullet to go at least as fast as a smaller caliber bullet if you want to do superior damage, otherwise it'll probably just do the same amount of damage or less.

As depicted in MWO, satisfying or not...
the AC/20 would do about as much damage as bullet bill here.

and since the bullet size of the AC/20 and the AC/2 are exactly identical..

The green "missiles" are AC rounds in MWO's models.
The sabot-shaped shots are "Gauss" slugs. And the strange white bottle rockets are missiles.

So AC/20 doing 20 damage as PGI shows it is physically impossible.
But hey... its PGI.
Somehow MWO wants us to believe that these are the things that are so universally applicable that they can be used to shoot down droves of infantry in a single rating, destroy or cripple vehicles, be good for destroying VTOL craft due to their rapid rate of fire and high projectile velocity (what velocity?), etc...

Yeah.
Still. This is a bit more satisfying to me. At least then I'd know if I got swarmed by helicopters I'd have an actual option of defense... rather than knowing my 6 million cbill mech could be taken out by a helicopter that costs less than 600 thousand due to not being able to hit it.

Wait wait wait... Do you play this game or are you still stuck at tier 5? AC/20 overpowered? Headshots in MW:O? What? What? Headshots are extremely rare, maybe in tier 5 where you stand still for several minutes you can get headshot but trust me once it kicks off to tier 4 a lot of things change, like how most enemies will exploit the AC/20's poor range and hitting someone past 270 meters is extremely difficult due to it's low velocity which makes it an obsolete weapon by many high level players, who you know, prefer PPC's, Gauss and lasers which are far more easy to use. But those aren't overpowered.

First of all the shells in battletech are HEAM (high explosive anti mech), which is a spin off of "HEAT" (high explosive anti tank) ammunition. HEAT ammo doesn't necessarily need a high velocity to do damage to armor because it has a focused explosive inside of it since it's a shaped charge. Second off, what do you want, high velocity =/= Skill based. You want higher AC velocities when you just went on a big write up on how multi shot AC's take more skill to use, ok so now you want to make them completely easy to use by making them.... akin to lasers??? Sounds like making AC's obsolete since someone could go "Hmm I get lasers that do damage over time for a duration and don't need ammo or I can get the stream of bullets that does damage over time but weighs super heavy, needs a ton of ammo and can cause ammo explosions hmmmmmmmmm"

That clip, oh yes, wow, so satisfying, a slow-firing pussyish machinegun peppering a stationary target's head for a kill, wow so great.

Edited by Dont LRM me please, 13 January 2018 - 05:17 PM.