281 replies to this topic

[vandalhooch]

Divenity, on 11 January 2018 - 04:07 PM, said:

Common sense would be seperated queues, like every other game has for this kind of thing.

There are. They're called Quickplay. You should spend more time there.

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Shouldn't be necessary and isn't always possible, even for people in units... Those people would be able to drop into the solo queue when their units aren't online.

Thank you for actually being reasonable.

Edited by vandalhooch, 11 January 2018 - 07:07 PM.

[Divenity]

50 50, on 11 January 2018 - 05:56 PM, said:

At the moment I am against splitting the queues in Faction Play to have a group queue and a solo queue as I feel the population simply can't support it.

...

My personal feeling is that we need to make Faction Play groups only

You... You realize those statements contradict one another, yes? Splitting the queues and kicking the solos out all together end in the same way for group players, so how is kicking the solos out all together better than splitting the queues? The only way it's "better" is if it's from the perspective of an elitist jerk, like the person I'm replying to next.

vandalhooch, on 11 January 2018 - 06:42 PM, said:

Because you aren't actually contributing and you aren't actually earning anything. Earning a reward requires you do something hard. You want to do something easy but get rewarded as if what you did was hard.

Difficulty is relative. Solos vs solos and groups vs groups, doesn't matter, the better players still come out on top... For every bad player you face on the enemy team, you'll eventually even that out with having to contend with bad players on your own team.

Do you honestly not realize this? Are you that damn dense? And besides, the rewards can be lowered while still being allowed to exist... Give solo queue only half the loyalty points and bonus Cbills that group queue receives... That should be more than acceptable unless you are just a completely unreasonable person.

Middlegrounds do exist, this is not an all or nothing scenario.

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There are. They're called Quickplay. You should spend more time there.

No, there isn't, because quickplay is not faction play, [REDACTED].

Edited by Ibrandul Mike, 16 January 2018 - 05:21 PM.
CoC Violation

[BearFlag]

Xannatharr, on 11 January 2018 - 01:32 PM, said:

Sorry the Game Mode was designed for people that wanted to drop in premade groups in the first place.

Divenity, on 11 January 2018 - 03:26 PM, said:

Once a-f-ing gain, if it were only meant for groups, it wouldn't have a solo queue option at all.

Good luck with that Divenity. I've pointed this out but some just don't get it. Saying something "is designed for" doesn't make it so or make it true. If a designed system is functioning as designed, its design (and purpose) can be elucidated by what it does. Therefore, FW is clearly designed for

Pugs
Trial Mechs
LRM Boats
Solos

because it allows it. Individual Call to Arms even encourages it. THIS is design.

I would grant that PGI's original design had groups in mind. But recall that this design failed spectacularly out of the gate. Just a few weeks after public release (Feb, 2015), population had tanked and has never recovered. Events and shiny things aside, you never see two thousand queuing up.

PGI is stuck with mech packs and MC trinkets for revenue because of this failure. Had they targeted their entire customer base with an immersive "end game" and fun, balanced play, they would have had a range of in-game stuff to sell in that "world." Feb 2015 should have been their wake up call. Long story short, FW today is not significantly different than CW then. Same spawn camping (tried, missed), same AWOL matchmaker, same dearth of people, same double death rate, same wearisome respawning (not everyone likes it), same choke points (ok, added QP maps), decreasing immersion (bukkit), same stomps.

The formula that caused the first tanking is pretty much the same game you have today. And, like it not, potent groups are part of the current (and perennial) problem inasmuch as there is no other place in FW for a solo or new player to go (except Scout now). You can't pit chess masters against kindergartners and expect to keep them both as customers. Lack of skill separation guarantees that the "end game" is really the "group game" (as designed, apparently). Given >90% avoid FW, one has to wonder how many left permanently because the "MW Universe" never materialized and the game play is abysmal for most.

And it would appear PGI has abandoned it. I read that Russ tweeted no resources for FW in 2018.(?) Solaris instead. Seems they've made their business decision. Don't expect resources in 2019.

Split queues would make sense to appeal to the 90%. Might crush group play though. Don't see it happening given that it should have happened three years ago.

[Divenity]

BearFlag, on 11 January 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

And it would appear PGI has abandoned it. I read that Russ tweeted no resources for FW in 2018.(?) Solaris instead. Seems they've made their business decision. Don't expect resources in 2019.

thing is it wouldn't even require much if any resources... they already built a split queue system in the past, surely they still have the code for it somwhere... that's not something you just delete..

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Split queues would make sense to appeal to the 90%.

Which is good for the game as a whole. More open participation in the end game can mean more players, which means more potential income.

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Don't see it happening given that it should have happened three years ago.

The first run at it only failed because they were splitting queues that were already split into a ton of smaller queues, which is no longer the case... They need only re-implement something they already have designed and see if it holds up this time now that all of the forces of each of the 2 factions are all queuing together instead of each clan and house queuing separately.

Edited by Divenity, 11 January 2018 - 09:41 PM.

[midwestnomad]

Yeah I remember you. Hiding in the back and rage typing to the other team and about your own team will never win the match.

I played a long time as a solo pilot before joining a unit and I know how frustrating it can feel sometimes. Every time I would have an experience like the one you had with us, I would vaguely remember not paying much attention to a warning that I received upon first entering FP.

THE GAME LITERALLY TELLS YOU WHAT YOU WILL BE FACING!

Complaining about the game after being told what you will be facing is like a high school kid getting drafted into Major League Baseball and complaining that it is unfair because the pitcher is throwing the ball harder then he can hit it.

Edited by midwestnomad, 11 January 2018 - 09:55 PM.

[BearFlag]

Divenity, on 11 January 2018 - 09:39 PM, said:

The first run at it only failed because they were splitting queues that were already split into a ton of smaller queues, which is no longer the case... They need only re-implement something they already have designed and see if it holds up this time now that all of the forces of each of the 2 factions are all queuing together instead of each clan and house queuing separately.

If I remember, the split had other problems. "Solo" was defined as non-unit and not single queuing.?. Not sure because my attention (and others, problem two) was on trying out Scout mode. It was competing with other new stuff.

Indeed, if it can be done easily, what's the harm in trying? Still pessimistic though.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Divenity, on 11 January 2018 - 09:39 PM, said:

thing is it wouldn't even require much if any resources... they already built a split queue system in the past, surely they still have the code for it somwhere... that's not something you just delete..

Which is good for the game as a whole. More open participation in the end game can mean more players, which means more potential income.



The first run at it only failed because they were splitting queues that were already split into a ton of smaller queues, which is no longer the case... They need only re-implement something they already have designed and see if it holds up this time now that all of the forces of each of the 2 factions are all queuing together instead of each clan and house queuing separately.

Lol unlike you I was around for the split queue disaster. It was despised by solo and units alike.

[Divenity]

Johnathan Tanner, on 11 January 2018 - 09:57 PM, said:

Lol unlike you I was around for the split queue disaster. It was despised by solo and units alike.

And from what I can tell it was because of queue times, which were because they were separating queues for queues that were already separated into 13(?) queues, turning it into 26, which would no longer be the case... They would be taking 2 and turning it into 4, which is an actually reasonable number.

BearFlag, on 11 January 2018 - 09:54 PM, said:

Indeed, if it can be done easily, what's the harm in trying?

Exactly... If it doesn't work, turn it back off, but at least god damn try.

Edited by Divenity, 11 January 2018 - 10:17 PM.

[Divenity]

midwestnomad, on 11 January 2018 - 09:52 PM, said:

Yeah I remember you. Hiding in the back and rage typing to the other team and about your own team will never win the match.

1. wasn't rage typing.

2. when we lost 10 mechs before the first gate even opened, yeah, I gave up, why even bother at that point?

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THE GAME LITERALLY TELLS YOU WHAT YOU WILL BE FACING!

Literally irrelevant to this discussion... Just because a thing is one way, doesn't mean it should stay that way.

People like you expect all the solos to just go play quickplay... well, if we do that, all that's left in factionplay is groups, which is the EXACT same outcome on the group player's side that we get from just separating the queues... So just separate the queues and give solo queue 50% reduced loyalty and bonus cbills to "incentivize" group play.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Divenity, on 11 January 2018 - 10:07 PM, said:

And from what I can tell it was because of queue times, which were because they were separating queues for queues that were already separated, which would no longer be the case.

Not really. I know its really hard to understand, But their are ALOT of really good solo players who like to drop against teams and see if they can carry, They like the challenge of a random drop without one of the worst matchmakers in online gaming ruining it for them.

This is not quick play, This is the hard mode of MWO. If you are having problems in FP matchs and dont enjoy them? Why play the most heavily team focused part of a team based PVP game at all?

I really dont get it?

[BearFlag]

Johnathan Tanner, on 11 January 2018 - 09:57 PM, said:

Lol unlike you I was around for the split queue disaster. It was despised by solo and units alike.

Um..what? The disaster was in design and duration. It ran for, what, two days? It included, what as "solo", non-unit members? BTW, why would "units" despise a queue they couldn't join?

[Divenity]

Johnathan Tanner, on 11 January 2018 - 10:18 PM, said:

Not really. I know its really hard to understand, But their are ALOT of really good solo players who like to drop against teams and see if they can carry, They like the challenge of a random drop without one of the worst matchmakers in online gaming ruining it for them.

You should really have read the OP, because:

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Add a checkbox for solo players to optionally fill in gaps in the group queues if they are willing, for when groups can't field a full 12 people.

They can go do ^that.

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Why play the most heavily team focused part of a team based PVP game at all?

That would be comp play.

Edited by Divenity, 11 January 2018 - 10:40 PM.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Divenity, on 11 January 2018 - 10:29 PM, said:

That would be comp play.

Comp play is for leagues tournaments. FP is the competitive section of the game and was designed from the ground up for teams. Originally there was to be no pugging. But people wanted a challenge and the community fought for it.

If you want respawn matches thats fine. Just make it a section of quick play and add the match maker. That way it will be fair to the players who actually work hard in FP to be good at what they do. No extra cbills, No lp, No mechbays. No affecting the map. Other wise it would be unfair to the people that dont hide in a safe space.

[Divenity]

Johnathan Tanner, on 11 January 2018 - 10:42 PM, said:

If you want respawn matches

Has nothing to do with that.

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That way it will be fair to the players who actually work hard in FP to be good at what they do.No extra cbills, No lp, No mechbays. No affecting the map.
Other wise it would be unfair to the people that dont hide in a safe space.

How would it not be fair? Please, do enlighten me.


Just reduce the amount of bonus Cbills and LP they get and how much effect they have on the map by half. That is more than fair, unless you are 100% a [REDACTED].

Edited by Ibrandul Mike, 16 January 2018 - 05:25 PM.
CoC Violation

[Johnathan Tanner]

Divenity, on 11 January 2018 - 10:53 PM, said:

Has nothing to do with that.


How would it not be fair? Please, do enlighten me.


Just reduce the amount of bonus Cbills and LP they get and how much they effect the map by half. That is more than fair, unless you are 100% a [REDACTED].

People have been pugging in this mode for years. And its the same people. They keep coming back, You ever wonder why that is? Because their having fun, Even tho they know right from the get go that the odds will be stacked against them(I do this all the time). But they keep coming back, Aint that weird?

There is a very big sign that pops up the 1st time you come into FP that explains in detail what you will face here. To enter a match you MUST accept that. You and a very small minority of the playerbase are possessed of a completely UNREASONABLE sense of ENTITLEMENT in that you believe the rules SHOULD NOT APPLY TO YOU.

It would be completely unfair for people unwilling to accept the conditions that EVERYBODY ELSE DOES. To participate in FP in any way. Because it would make cheap what teams have worked so hard for.

Also I find it hilarious that you insult anyone who does not agree with your bad attempt to spin the truth to support your views. And by your own admission you give up the second a wave dosent go your way. Thus screwing your team by making them carry your useless quitter self. I feel bad for anyone who has to drop with you.

Edited by Ibrandul Mike, 16 January 2018 - 05:26 PM.
Quote Cleanup

[vandalhooch]

Divenity, on 11 January 2018 - 07:36 PM, said:

Difficulty is relative. Solos vs solos and groups vs groups, doesn't matter, the better players still come out on top...

The better players are able to play against and beat ALL comers. The toughest opponents in this game are organized teams that coordinate their decks, movements and fire. That's a REAL challenge. Players are rewarded in Faction Play for striving to be, compete against, and beat those sorts of teams.

You don't want to become that good nor have to ever even face someone else that good. Fine, your choice. But you want to be rewarded the same as others who actually do face that level of challenge. "If everyone is special . . . then no one is special."

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For every bad player you face on the enemy team, you'll eventually even that out with having to contend with bad players on your own team.

Do you honestly not realize this? Are you that [REDACTED]?

Says the guy who has been playing the game less than one month?

Is it not at all possible that maybe there are some things about this game and mode that you are unaware of? There is no way that the people critical of your idea in this thread possess more in depth knowledge about how the game actually works?

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And besides, the rewards can be lowered while still being allowed to exist... Give solo queue only half the loyalty points and bonus Cbills that group queue receives... That should be more than acceptable unless you are just a [REDACTED].

Were you willing to face the challenge of ANY AND ALL POSSIBLE OPPONENTS? If yes, then you will be rewarded. If not, then you won't. Why is that so hard for you to accept? Have you really never been told "No." in your life?

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Middlegrounds do exist, this is not an all or nothing scenario.

Because you say so?

Faction Play was designed to be non-curated mode where players who choose to play face off against ANY AND ALL CHALLENGERS. Some people, clearly not you, but others really want that level of challenge and freedom.

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No, there isn't, because quickplay is not faction play, you [REDACTED].

Do you really not see that you just proved my point? Faction Play is not Quick Play. But, here you are asking for Faction Play to have separate queues, just like . . . Quick Play. You want to splash around in the kiddie pool of a solo-only mode but be rewarded the same as the big kids playing in the deep end? I'll bet dollars to donuts that if a solo-only Faction Play mode was ever put back in the game you would be in here screaming inside a week for PGI to incorporate a PSR based matchmaker in the mode as well.

As many other Faction Play veteran's (with thousands of drops in the mode each) have already pointed out to you, a solo-only mode would be inundated with solo killers. Your complete lack of real experience with this game has limited your ability to look past the unit tags of teams that beat you now. I can think of more than two dozen pilots without unit tags or solo-unit tags that put on a team together would absolutely wreck the vast majority of 12-man teams in this mode. Bare bones coordination, limited communication and mountains of experience/skill would melt legions of typical 12-mans despite their more robust communication and coordination. You would be splashing around in your "safe" kiddie pool and then CHOMP!

Personally, I'm at best a decent Faction Play pilot and when PGI tried the FP solo queue before, my alt account racked up insane damage scores and kill counts despite only owning 5 or 6 mechs in total.

If you want the additional mode, maps and dropdecks of Faction Play added to the Quick Play roster that's a different discussion. How will that work considering standard Quick Play matches are 15 minutes and Faction Play are 30? Will new players who don't own four mechs of their own be forced to randomly drop in Faction Play-like matches because of the semi-random nature of mode selection? Will those FP-like matches be restricted to teams composed of certain Factions/Sides?

Until you can think of a solution to those problems you are faced with two choices. Either suck in your ego and spend the time taking your lumps in order to learn and get better or stop playing the mode.

Edited by Ibrandul Mike, 16 January 2018 - 05:29 PM.
Quote cleanup, even the parts that were already cleaned up by Vandalhooch :)

[vandalhooch]

Divenity, on 11 January 2018 - 10:07 PM, said:

And from what I can tell it was because of queue times, which were because they were separating queues for queues that were already separated into 13(?) queues, turning it into 26, which would no longer be the case... They would be taking 2 and turning it into 4, which is an actually reasonable number.

From what you can tell? Sources please. There's no way you are just seeing what you want to be the truth rather than what actually happened, right?

Oh, by the way, care to explain to us what the typical total number of people playing Faction Play at that time was versus what it is now?

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Exactly... If it doesn't work, turn it back off, but at least god damn try.

[50 50]

Divenity, on 11 January 2018 - 07:36 PM, said:

You... You realize those statements contradict one another, yes? Splitting the queues and kicking the solos out all together end in the same way for group players, so how is kicking the solos out all together better than splitting the queues? The only way it's "better" is if it's from the perspective of an [REDACTED].

Everyone take it down a notch before this thread (like so many others) get's locked.
Happy to go over various points and have a good discussion so let me explain my reasoning.

At the moment we have the following areas we can divide players into.

Solo Quick Play
Group Quick Play
Faction Play Invasion - Mixed.
Faction Play Scouting - Mixed.
Competitive Play
Private Lobby

Coming soon we are getting the additional Solaris queues for 1v1 and 2v2 and there might be some segregation between the tiers which might mean different layers for the queues.

So my thought is that we already have a number of areas to split into that divides the player base. Given the population is also split around various timezones, this is making it increasingly harder to get matches in almost any mode except solo quick play.

Given that we now have the quick play maps and most of the modes available in Faction Play, it would make sense to to try and consolidate some of these queues.
The obvious ones are the two Faction Play queues and Group Play seeing as group quick play is almost as bad for wait times.
I've included Scouting in the consolidation as while that mode is fun and different, it feels disconnected to the Invasion and I reckon we could link it a little tighter to our own individual efforts.

By making group play the group faction play option we immediately merge two queues and start to consolidate players.
Seeing as 2 players constitutes a group, it should not be too difficult to find another player in lfg and get going. By mere virtue of doing so players start to co-ordinate and reap the benefits.

But there are other reasons.

Now I am also heavily in favour of going something about the group limits for a few reasons.
That is, the proposal to limit group sizes to a lance.
This does not stop 12 players from forming 3 groups and attempting to sync drop, far from it.
The whole idea about limiting group sizes is to achieve the following:

• Allow for flexibility in the match maker for when the population is low to have 4v4, 8v8 and still allow 12v12 battles.
  
  This is only to assist with wait times and help solo players form a small group, or small units form a group and get some games.
  If we can't get games, we don't play the game and ..... well ..... we don't play MWO.
  
• It is also to allow integration of the Scout mode as it has the hard limit for the team of a single lance.
  
  This allows us to consolidate another queue.
  We could think a little differently about how we might use our drop decks to further integrate the mode, but otherwise because we are in lances we suddenly have an extra mode that can be added into the mix.
  
• Limiting the group size means we can look into an important restriction which would otherwise cause problems with the wait times.
  
  If we enforce groups to only consist of players from a single faction, we have the opportunity to break up the battles and bring back the ability to have IS v IS, Clan v Clan and still have the IS v Clan by making it a free for all bucket.
  The only other rule is that you cannot fight your own faction. (No Marik v Marik for example)
  We can still have all the events about capturing planets and so on and there is even a way to bring in more value and identity to the factions and planets that players have been asking for for years!
  This is a bit more about what we can do for the future of the mode, but from where we are right now, I reckon it's a real possibility and rather exciting.

So, I'm not trying to say that solo's can't play the mode.

I'm saying that if we consolidate some of the queues and look beyond that, there are some real possibilities and solo players if they group up just a little (ie. a lance) there is functionality we can add that would bring so much to the mode.

Lastly, we have a group screen that we can add more features and depth to. Imagine if completing a battle (victoriously) actually meant something more than just pushing the tug of war (which should be changed anyway).
Imagine that the battles you fight have an impact, an aftermath.
The group screen is a great spot to build some depth and add some new features as an area that we can affect dynamically from one battle to the next.

The drop deck also has functionality that could be explored, but for different options and longer term (less dynamic) effects.

That's my thought on things and why I am pushing for FP to be the group mode.

Edited by Ibrandul Mike, 16 January 2018 - 05:30 PM.
Quote Cleanup

[vandalhooch]

Divenity, on 11 January 2018 - 10:12 PM, said:

1. wasn't rage typing.

2. when we lost 10 mechs before the first gate even opened, yeah, I gave up, why even bother at that point?

And we're supposed to respect and value your opinion about this game when you are a poor sport?

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Literally irrelevant to this discussion... Just because a thing is one way, doesn't mean it should stay that way.

People like you expect all the solos to just go play quickplay...

Having played thousands of Faction Play matches as a solo pilot, I can unequivocally say that "No, that is not what anyone in this thread expects." What they would like is for poor sport whiners to go away and go play in the Quick Play kiddie pool.

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well, if we do that,

We? Listen [...], don't presume to speak for me.

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all that's left in factionplay is groups, which is the EXACT same outcome on the group player's side that we get from just separating the queues... So just separate the queues and give solo queue 50% reduced loyalty and bonus cbills to "incentivize" group play.

"Here kiddies." "Have some trophies just like the big kids get."

Edited by Ibrandul Mike, 16 January 2018 - 05:33 PM.
Cleaned it up a bit. Doesn't have to be that much baiting, does it?

[Black Ivan]

With the small population seperating Ques won't work, teh wait times would increased even more.

The real problem is, that there isn't an easy solution for the FW misery anymore. The mode has come down so much that easy solutions won't patch up al the problems anymore.