281 replies to this topic

[Johnathan Tanner]

Black Ivan, on 11 January 2018 - 11:47 PM, said:

With the small population seperating Ques won't work, teh wait times would increased even more.

The real problem is, that there isn't an easy solution for the FW misery anymore. The mode has come down so much that easy solutions won't patch up al the problems anymore.

[Divenity]

Johnathan Tanner, on 11 January 2018 - 11:11 PM, said:

There is a very big sign that pops up the 1st time you come into FP that explains in detail what you will face here.

Like I've said before, just because a thing is one way now, doesnt mean it should stay that way.

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very small minority

citation needed.

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UNREASONABLE sense of ENTITLEMENT in that you believe the rules SHOULD NOT APPLY TO YOU.

No, we're asking for the system to be changed to something more reasonable, that more appeals to a broader audience, which by the way, means more money for the developers if it succeeds.

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It would be completely unfair for people unwilling to accept the conditions that EVERYBODY ELSE DOES. To participate in FP in any way. Because it would make cheap what teams have worked so hard for.

Unless the people playing solo queue got rewards at half speed. People playing group queue have double the effect on the map, get double loyalty points, and double CBills.

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Also I find it hilarious that you insult

Calling you an elitist [REDACTED... still is an insult!] isn't an insult at this point, it's complete fact. your behavior is the definition of elitism.

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And by your own admission you give up the second a wave dosent go your way.

10 people dying before the first gate falls when attacking on siege, and taking 10 minutes to get a gate down... That is the one and only time I have ever given up.

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I feel bad for anyone who has to drop with you.

I feel bad for anyone who has to queue with the 10 people in that match who were completely brainless and couldn't follow the simple instruction of "everyone go up the ramp and the same time and hit the gate generator"... Despite being told repeatedly by myself and another, they went up one at a time and tried to trade blows with a 12 man firing line and died.

Tell me why I should keep trying after that glorious display of idiocy?

Edited by Ibrandul Mike, 16 January 2018 - 05:36 PM.
CoC Violation

[Divenity]

vandalhooch, on 11 January 2018 - 11:40 PM, said:

And we're supposed to respect and value your opinion about this game when you are a poor sport?

When it takes people 10 minutes and 10 mechs to get a gate down, despite being told repeatedly what to do and not doing it, again, why bother? It's absurdly obvious at that point that a win is entirely impossible.

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"No, that is not what anyone in this thread expects."

Really? Did you actually read the thread? Because that's exactly what more than a few people in here are saying, word for word, do I need to go quote them for you or do you think you can manage to find them on your own?

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"Here kiddies." "Have some trophies just like the big kids get."

Be a [REDACTED] all you want, I see no problem with it if it takes them 2x as long to get those rewards when playing soloqueue. You put in more effort, you get rewards twice as fast, this is perfectly reasonable.

Edited by Ibrandul Mike, 16 January 2018 - 05:38 PM.
Quote Cleanup and CoC Violations

[Johnathan Tanner]

Divenity, on 12 January 2018 - 12:00 AM, said:

Calling you an elitist [REDACTED] isn't an insult at this point, it's complete fact. your behavior is the definition of elitism.
10 people dying before the first gate falls when attacking on siege, and taking 10 minutes to get a gate down... That is the one and only time I have ever given up.

I feel bad for anyone who has to queue with the 10 people in that match who were completely brainless and couldn't follow the simple instruction of "everyone go up the ramp and the same time and hit the gate generator"... Despite being told repeatedly by myself and another, they went up one at a time and tried to trade blows with a 12 man firing line and died.

Tell me why I should keep trying after that glorious display of idiocy?

So Im an elitist for....holding people to the same standards as everyone else? OK....

Divenity, on 12 January 2018 - 12:13 AM, said:

reasonable.

Edited by Ibrandul Mike, 16 January 2018 - 05:39 PM.
Quote Cleanup

[Divenity]

Johnathan Tanner, on 12 January 2018 - 12:21 AM, said:

So Im an elitist for....holding people to the same standards as everyone else? OK....

For refusing to allow any other path to the same rewards, even if it takes more time.

"You can't have XYZ unless you do EXACTLY this"

F'k alternate progression paths and having options, everyone has to do exactly the one way you're good with, and f'k everyone who disagrees with you. That's elitist.

Why do you hate options, especially when those options don't hurt you in any way?

Edited by Divenity, 12 January 2018 - 12:44 AM.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Divenity, on 12 January 2018 - 12:38 AM, said:

For refusing to allow any other path to the same rewards, even if it takes more time.

And there it is.

You dont care about FP your TEAM MATES or anything else in this game. You just want the rewards that I and many others have spent years EARNING without any of the effort.

How about no.

Edited by Johnathan Tanner, 12 January 2018 - 12:47 AM.

[Divenity]

Johnathan Tanner, on 12 January 2018 - 12:46 AM, said:

And there it is.

You dont care about FP your TEAM MATES or anything else in this game. You just want the rewards that I and many others have spent years EARNING without any of the effort.

How about no.

You're the one that started bitching about rewards, you brought them into this discussion, not me, your first post was whining about your precious rewards and wanting to keep them out of the hands of solo queue players.

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without any of the effort.

With effort, just less, which is why it requires 2x as much time... Logic.


Anyone participating in faction war should get faction war rewards that is common sense. Those rewards should come at variable speed based on the effort required for their participation method, same reason scouting doesn't award the same as invasion, it requires less effort. This is logical.

Edited by Divenity, 12 January 2018 - 12:57 AM.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Divenity, on 12 January 2018 - 12:51 AM, said:

You're the one that started bitching about rewards, not me... You brought them into this discussion, not me.




With effort, just less, which is why it requires 2x as much time... Logic.

The only thing I see you bringing to this discussion is that its ok to rage quit and abandon your team before wave 1 is over. That FP is hard therefor it must be made easy to suit me, And that anything anyone says that doesnt support my view is to be met with insults and ILLOGICAL claims to know better than people who've been here for years. I miss anything?

[Divenity]

Johnathan Tanner, on 12 January 2018 - 01:01 AM, said:

I miss anything?

Absolutely everything.

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abandon your team before wave 1 is over.

If they have proven they cannot follow simple instructions and don't care about winning in any way shape or form? Sure, they abandoned me and the one other guy on my team who tried to organize them when they ignored us trying to get them to pull their heads out of their backsides, so why shouldn't we just let the game end quickly? Less time wasted for everyone involved that way.

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That FP is hard

No, not hard, unfun when in a pug fighting a premade.

Fun and difficulty are two separate things.

Most premades I run into say they don't have fun stomping pugs either, so this seems like a thing they would benefit from too.

Edited by Divenity, 12 January 2018 - 01:10 AM.

[Divenity]

Also

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You dont care about FP your TEAM MATES or anything else in this game

You don't seem to either, since all you do is whine about the rewards and say yourself that you don't care about the map/war effort. Do YOU care about FP? It doesn't seem like it.

Edited by Divenity, 12 January 2018 - 01:20 AM.

[Bishop Six]

@Divenity

You are talking way too much.

[r4zen]

Bishop's right. You're being selective in your responses and flaming out.

If you wanna blow your rage-load, do it elsewhere...we're all tired of listening to the same BS from people who refuse to take responsibility for their own experience in FP and demand PGI make changes to suit them.

To ask Tanner if he cares about FP is laughable.

[Rustyhammer]

Divenity, on 12 January 2018 - 12:00 AM, said:

Unless the people playing solo queue got rewards at half speed. People playing group queue have double the effect on the map, get double loyalty points, and double CBills.

Just out of curiosity, what make you thing that people playing FP solo in the proposed solo queue deserve more rewards than people playing in QP right now? What extra efforts these people will put into game play/coordination than QP folks putting right now?
CBills are linked to the damage anyway so what exactly made you think you are entitled to any LP rewards when queued solo, knowing you won't face a challenge of a coordinated group?

[Bishop Six]

I guess he rage-quitted the thread like he does in the matches.

[r4zen]

We've had this same discussion/argument dozens of times in the last two months alone.

The majority of us agree that a straight solo/group queue won't work. The majority of us agree that the FP experience for new/solo players kind of sucks (sometimes really sucks), but that's the mode. Group up and/or 'git gud' are the fastest paths to not getting pooped on every match. As the mode currently stands, if you aren't willing or able to do either of those things, you're going to get stomped a lot.

And sometimes you're going to win the PUG lottery and get slotted in with an 11 man of a coordinated and/or skilled unit and have a ton of fun - hopefully our friend here can think about the best matches in FP he's played and consider why those matches were fun and great. I'm going to venture a guess that the best matches people have played in this mode weren't because everyone on your team was all solo YOLO derpbuild stupidity.

[The Basilisk]

Divenity, on 12 January 2018 - 12:13 AM, said:

When it takes people 10 minutes and 10 mechs to get a gate down, despite being told repeatedly what to do and not doing it, again, why bother? It's absurdly obvious at that point that a win is entirely impossible.





Really? Did you actually read the thread? Because that's exactly what more than a few people in here are saying, word for word, do I need to go quote them for you or do you think you can manage to find them on your own?



Be a condescending jackass all you want, I see no problem with it if it takes them 2x as long to get those rewards when playing soloqueue. You put in more effort, you get rewards twice as fast, this is perfectly reasonable.

Realy stop try reasoning with them.
It is always the same, very smal, group of people in this forum repeating the same arguments and points of view again and again and clapping each others backs and making sure to gank everyone that is of different opinion when discussing the reality of how the game develops towards a more and more negative experience for a majority of the players.

Their point of view is "git gud the way I want" and that is it.

And to be honest, same time last year I too would have refered to the warning sign at the entrance of FP and told anyone complaining about the absolute unfun unbalance in the playing experienc between trained, optimized, coordinated, premade and pickup groups, that he either should join such a unit or get lost.

Well this did not happen.
What we have now and what PGI supports with its ingame events and general behavior (or better lack of) is a murky, stale pool of game modes.
Only general difference is that you have to invest a lot more time in FP with the possibility of getting paid a lot less as in QP and that you have a game mode more with a number of maps that you do not play in Quickplay.

What the "git gud" faction in the forum seem not to understand is that all realy good players don't play FP to play "gud" but rather play organized lobby matches or make comp drops to get a good and fair sporting experience out of their games.

That leaves a minority of core players of certain units that are now little more than a somewhat toxic residue from the "FP is for units only" time for the majority of players that are playing FP as pick up groups.

What now has to be done is either to accept that you sometimes step into patches of those....well get over with a match quickly...you know how and drop into a match where some potential to have fun exists or get PGI to restrict those players to a seperate compartment where they can be as organized and optimized as they want without bothering the broad majority.

[Stealthrider]

There's one thing, it seems, that every single person in this thread (and likely in FP as a whole) agrees on: the initial, new-to-FP experience is awful. Regardless of whose fault it is (I blame certain units' preference for farming damage numbers over actually winning the game. Sportsmanship, right?), that experience is arguably the biggest problem with FP as it is without doubt the reason the FP population has not and does not see any real growth.

However, a strict solo/group queue separation would not solve that problem, as has been stated time and again. And, as someone pointed out, my proposal of units self-limiting their drops in an effort to help ease newer/solo players into coordination would also not work, as the units would not be willing to sacrifice potentially winning against other units for the good of the community because of the unlikelihood of other units doing the same (it's a regular nuclear disarmament situation, isn't it?).

Clearly, if there is any solution then it must lie somewhere in between the two extremes of the current "either you're up to speed already or you should go back to QP" and the proposed "ONLY solo/ONLY group" measure.

Therefore, I propose the following.

Training Mode Queue

For a pilot's first X games in Faction Play, they would be placed into a special "training" queue. This queue would be comprised of solo players and small (4 or fewer players) groups, and could potentially be an 8v8 battle if population does not support full 12v12s. This queue would provide no or lowered contract bonus and have a lower effect on the FP map, and would serve as the proper introduction to how FP works that the game currently lacks.

"But that wouldn't introduce them to FP! They won't learn from just fighting other newbies!" You are correct, which is why experienced pilots would have the option to queue into Training Mode, either solo or in groups of up to 4. In doing so, these players would receive the same lowered rewards but with an additional, guaranteed "Instructor Bonus" that would (hopefully) incentivize them to join the queue and help teach the newbies the ropes.

The hope is that those experienced pilots and units that care about introducing more players to FP would use this queue to do so, while the newer players would not be subject to immediately getting stomped, spawn camped and berated til they quit FP forever. The other hope is that the larger reward, promise of coordination and impact on the map would be enough to incentivize the newer players (and the more competitive units) to join in the real conflict rather than remain in training forever, though there could be potential steps to encourage that if necessary (eg the scaling Cadet Bonus new accounts already get, something similar could be implemented).


Thoughts?

[Bishop Six]

Stealthrider, on 12 January 2018 - 03:09 AM, said:

There's one thing, it seems, that every single person in this thread (and likely in FP as a whole) agrees on: the initial, new-to-FP experience is awful. Regardless of whose fault it is (I blame certain units' preference for farming damage numbers over actually winning the game. Sportsmanship, right?), that experience is arguably the biggest problem with FP as it is without doubt the reason the FP population has not and does not see any real growth.

However, a strict solo/group queue separation would not solve that problem, as has been stated time and again. And, as someone pointed out, my proposal of units self-limiting their drops in an effort to help ease newer/solo players into coordination would also not work, as the units would not be willing to sacrifice potentially winning against other units for the good of the community because of the unlikelihood of other units doing the same (it's a regular nuclear disarmament situation, isn't it?).

Clearly, if there is any solution then it must lie somewhere in between the two extremes of the current "either you're up to speed already or you should go back to QP" and the proposed "ONLY solo/ONLY group" measure.

Therefore, I propose the following.

Training Mode Queue

For a pilot's first X games in Faction Play, they would be placed into a special "training" queue. This queue would be comprised of solo players and small (4 or fewer players) groups, and could potentially be an 8v8 battle if population does not support full 12v12s. This queue would provide no or lowered contract bonus and have a lower effect on the FP map, and would serve as the proper introduction to how FP works that the game currently lacks.

"But that wouldn't introduce them to FP! They won't learn from just fighting other newbies!" You are correct, which is why experienced pilots would have the option to queue into Training Mode, either solo or in groups of up to 4. In doing so, these players would receive the same lowered rewards but with an additional, guaranteed "Instructor Bonus" that would (hopefully) incentivize them to join the queue and help teach the newbies the ropes.

The hope is that those experienced pilots and units that care about introducing more players to FP would use this queue to do so, while the newer players would not be subject to immediately getting stomped, spawn camped and berated til they quit FP forever. The other hope is that the larger reward, promise of coordination and impact on the map would be enough to incentivize the newer players (and the more competitive units) to join in the real conflict rather than remain in training forever, though there could be potential steps to encourage that if necessary (eg the scaling Cadet Bonus new accounts already get, something similar could be implemented).


Thoughts?

Nice idea. But as a pug you could ask unit guys to take you with them, that would be a good training too^^

I'm very happy that we could manage to have 10-12 men regularly, why should i throw away this work?

[Stealthrider]

Bishop Six, on 12 January 2018 - 03:16 AM, said:

Nice idea. But as a pug you could ask unit guys to take you with them, that would be a good training too^^

I'm very happy that we could manage to have 10-12 men regularly, why should i throw away this work?

For one, there's no guarantee they'd accept. If you show up as a fresh, wide-eyed newbie with a trial LRM stalker in your drop deck, and you ask an 11-man group to take you on, do you think they'd let you in? Especially if they could instead pick someone else for that 12th spot?

For two, having an in-game system is always better than relying on an out-of-game system, as the majority of any game's population does not bother with out-of-game resources. Is it their fault? Sure, but that doesn't make it suddenly not a fact.

Finally, nothing is stopping you from still playing with your 10-12 man group in the normal queue. You'd simply have the option of playing the training queue if you felt like it and wanted to impart your knowledge and experience on the fresh pubs. It's all in your hands.

[Bishop Six]

Stealthrider, on 12 January 2018 - 03:20 AM, said:

For one, there's no guarantee they'd accept. If you show up as a fresh, wide-eyed newbie with a trial LRM stalker in your drop deck, and you ask an 11-man group to take you on, do you think they'd let you in? Especially if they could instead pick someone else for that 12th spot?

For two, having an in-game system is always better than relying on an out-of-game system, as the majority of any game's population does not bother with out-of-game resources. Is it their fault? Sure, but that doesn't make it suddenly not a fact.

Finally, nothing is stopping you from still playing with your 10-12 man group in the normal queue. You'd simply have the option of playing the training queue if you felt like it and wanted to impart your knowledge and experience on the fresh pubs. It's all in your hands.

I see your intention and you are good willed, thats nice

We take such pugs with us, let them play 1 match how they want and then we ask friendly if they could leave their LRMs at home...^^

FP trainings ground/mode is definitely not the worst idea.