281 replies to this topic

[Lyons De Flamand]

The argument isn't 'git gud'. The argument is'get organized'. There's an entire section of the board with groups of people asking, vying for pilots. There are units that have entire curriculums on basic play and Faction Play. If you refuse to accept all the invitations just because you think you're so stellar that you don't need a team in a teambased objective oriented shooter, you deserve all the pugalisciousness you get

[Juju Shinobi]

It seems like most of the people complaining here spend more time on the forums whinging about groups and meta instead of trying to improve as a player. If you can't control external factors, control yourself. What builds you bring, how to play said builds. At the end of the day, you can only really control what you do. So work on it. If you're playing casually and just want to have fun, that's fine. Just don't complain when people play to win

[Stealthrider]

Lyons De Flamand, on 12 January 2018 - 03:31 AM, said:

The argument isn't 'git gud'. The argument is'get organized'. There's an entire section of the board with groups of people asking, vying for pilots. There are units that have entire curriculums on basic play and Faction Play. If you refuse to accept all the invitations just because you think you're so stellar that you don't need a team in a teambased objective oriented shooter, you deserve all the pugalisciousness you get

The majority of any game's playerbase does not visit official or unofficial forums. In order to grow a game mode, it is those players that must be appealed to. Easing them into the mode rather than throwing them to the sharks would serve as better encouragement for them to do exactly what you want them to do: get more involved, join a unit, etc. Particularly if they have friendly, helpful experienced players taking the time to introduce them to the idea of coordination and teamplay in-game, in an environment that isn't as likely to end with them being spawn camped.

Juju Shinobi, on 12 January 2018 - 03:39 AM, said:

It seems like most of the people complaining here spend more time on the forums whinging about groups and meta instead of trying to improve as a player. If you can't control external factors, control yourself. What builds you bring, how to play said builds. At the end of the day, you can only really control what you do. So work on it. If you're playing casually and just want to have fun, that's fine. Just don't complain when people play to win

Part of the problem is that certain units do not play to win, instead they choose to spawn camp when they could be killing gens, capping points, etc. It's like putting the Lakers against a group of schoolyard kids, only instead of just massively outplaying and outscoring the kids, the Lakers score ten points and spend the rest of the game beating the kids to a pulp. It's that experience that turns newbies away and doesn't exactly convince them to want to join a unit themselves.

Edited by Stealthrider, 12 January 2018 - 03:51 AM.

[Rustyhammer]

Stealthrider, on 12 January 2018 - 03:44 AM, said:

The majority of any game's playerbase does not visit official or unofficial forums. In order to grow a game mode, it is those players that must be appealed to. Easing them into the mode rather than throwing them to the sharks would serve as better encouragement for them to do exactly what you want them to do: get more involved, join a unit, etc. Particularly if they have friendly, helpful experienced players taking the time to introduce them to the idea of coordination and teamplay in-game, in an environment that isn't as likely to end with them being spawn camped.



Part of the problem is that certain units do not play to win, instead they choose to spawn camp when they could be killing gens, capping points, etc. It's like putting the Lakers against a group of schoolyard kids, only instead of just massively outplaying and outscoring the kids, the Lakers score ten points and spend the rest of the game beating the kids to a pulp. It's that experience that turns newbies away and doesn't exactly convince them to want to join a unit themselves.

Many single-player games have additional levels of difficulty that are not accessible unless you complete the easy mode.
MWO does not stop you from accessing such content, it just shows you the warning.


See, the people who capable and willing to learn team play already have all means to improve their FP experience - hop on TS, find a FP group, ask permission to join and you won't be refused if group has less than 12 players. Joining FP as a new player is not a problem if the new player is a responsible adult with basic ability to read and understand the warning presented during the first launch.

I was a new player without a unit but I started playing FP only after I got comfortable in QP and after I got 2 decks of decent mechs - because I read the ***** warning. On my very first FP match we nearly got spawn camped but I still out-damaged 2/3 of my random team and still was excited by the ability of bringing best working mechs for the map and chances that re-spawns give you to correct your mistakes. I'm dropping solo a lot and I never see organised groups as a problem - the most annoying thing is the excessive number of ******** pugs who let you down not the opposite group that stomps you.

If you are a total newbie who's not even completed the cadet bonus, ask yourself - why a group should take you on in when they can just drop as 11 men and have better chances to get a decent PUG player rather than a player who have no idea where the 'W' key is. SO you either have to go to the 'safespace' of QP and 'git gud' to some extent or make a difference to the random PUG and show you willingness to learn and adapt. I highly doubt any group of good players will refuse a newbie who is really listening - such players usually progress fast and quickly stop being detriment and become an asset. And check recruitment threads - many units are willing to accept and teach new players.
But if you a loreplaying potato who insist that LRM XL Atlas piloted by joystick is the only right way to play this game mode then don't expect much from FP. Yous probably can find/organise a group of similarly-minded players but you chances to win are better when dropping solo.

All resources to have fun in FP are already there and available to everyone - its the people who refuse to use them and then cry about evil groups in a group play mode...

[Appogee]

r4zen, on 11 January 2018 - 03:33 PM, said:

It's kind of like when you stick a fork in an electric socket. "IF IT WEREN'T MEANT TO GO IN THERE, THEN WHY DOES IT FIT?"

LOL! I'm going to steal that

OP wants the game mode changed so that he can play it the way he wants... at the cost of destroying the game mode for those of us who play it the way it was designed to be played and the way most of us play it.

Just, no.

Incidentally, I occasionally drop solo in FP when there aren't members of my or allied units online. If I'm lucky, I find myself making up the numbers for another decent sized group. If I'm unlucky, I'm stuck with other soloists facing a premade and getting my arse kicked.

But it's my choice, my risk, my reward/punishment for dropping solo in the group mode.

[Stealthrider]

Rustyhammer, on 12 January 2018 - 04:30 AM, said:

Many single-player games have additional levels of difficulty that are not accessible unless you complete the easy mode.
MWO does not stop you from accessing such content, it just shows you the warning.


See, the people who capable and willing to learn team play already have all means to improve their FP experience - hop on TS, find a FP group, ask permission to join and you won't be refused if group has less than 12 players. Joining FP as a new player is not a problem if the new player is a responsible adult with basic ability to read and understand the warning presented during the first launch.

I was a new player without a unit but I started playing FP only after I got comfortable in QP and after I got 2 decks of decent mechs - because I read the ***** warning. On my very first FP match we nearly got spawn camped but I still out-damaged 2/3 of my random team and still was excited by the ability of bringing best working mechs for the map and chances that re-spawns give you to correct your mistakes. I'm dropping solo a lot and I never see organised groups as a problem - the most annoying thing is the excessive number of ******** pugs who let you down not the opposite group that stomps you.

If you are a total newbie who's not even completed the cadet bonus, ask yourself - why a group should take you on in when they can just drop as 11 men and have better chances to get a decent PUG player rather than a player who have no idea where the 'W' key is. SO you either have to go to the 'safespace' of QP and 'git gud' to some extent or make a difference to the random PUG and show you willingness to learn and adapt. I highly doubt any group of good players will refuse a newbie who is really listening - such players usually progress fast and quickly stop being detriment and become an asset. And check recruitment threads - many units are willing to accept and teach new players.
But if you a loreplaying potato who insist that LRM XL Atlas piloted by joystick is the only right way to play this game mode then don't expect much from FP. Yous probably can find/organise a group of similarly-minded players but you chances to win are better when dropping solo.

All resources to have fun in FP are already there and available to everyone - its the people who refuse to use them and then cry about evil groups in a group play mode...

The resources are there but not part of the in-game experience, therefore the vast majority of players will never engage with them by default. If there was some way to encourage them to do so in-game, more players would be inclined.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can simultaneously lament the low player count of FP and decry any attempt to bring more players into the fold, even if it's by encouraging them and helping them to do exactly the thing those people say they have to do anyway.

If the new player experience is awful, the number of new players that will want to continue with the mode (and therefore join units, etc) will remain atrociously low. If the experience is made more palatable, that number will go up. The difficult part is making that experience more palatable without harming the current experience of veterans.

What I'm seeing is another part of the problem: the general attitude of veterans is to expect newbies to go to them for guidance, instead of the veterans reaching out themselves. My proposal would allow those that do want to reach out to do so, in-game, as part of the default experience for a new player. Those that don't could continue playing exactly as they have been, except without the potatoes they despise so much clogging their drops.It's a win-win, so why be opposed to the idea?

You want the newbies out of your hair. Newbies want to not get clubbed. You want more people to engage in units and coordinated play. Newbies need a better avenue toward doing so that isn't just "go look at the forums/TS servers/discord/whatever out of game resource." If you have a better solution, I'd like to hear it, but I assume it will just be "let them get stomped til they either learn or leave." One of these options improves the playerbase, the other does not.

[Xannatharr]

Divenity, on 11 January 2018 - 10:12 PM, said:

2. when we lost 10 mechs before the first gate even opened, yeah, I gave up, why even bother at that point?

Sorry man, this tells me all I need to know about you from a game perspective.

I've led teams to a win after a disastrous Wave 1 like that. If you don't have the will to at least keep trying you're not going to be happy with Faction Play, EVER.

Edit: Adding this here so that you can't cry "Bullsh*t". Match was about 3 weeks ago, our team was mostly players that solo-queued (me included).

Everyone saw that the opfor was a full R79T team and was ready to give up. I have a lot of respect for R79T, I think they are pretty good. But I also had an idea of what they would be doing, so I called the match, herded the cats and we managed to squeak out a win even after getting face-stomped on wave 1.



It happens, you should be aspiring to either do it yourself or get a team to drop with. (Or go back to QP).


Sorry sometimes it's hard but you are one making it hard on yourself.

PGI is not going to sink any resources into FW and if they did they won't waste it trying to change the mode to suit people that don't want to try.

Regards,

Xann

Edited by Xannatharr, 12 January 2018 - 09:09 AM.

[Ssamout]

Stealthrider, on 12 January 2018 - 03:44 AM, said:

Part of the problem is that certain units do not play to win, instead they choose to spawn camp when they could be killing gens, capping points, etc. It's like putting the Lakers against a group of schoolyard kids, only instead of just massively outplaying and outscoring the kids, the Lakers score ten points and spend the rest of the game beating the kids to a pulp. It's that experience that turns newbies away and doesn't exactly convince them to want to join a unit themselves.

Huh? You can beat up the players of another team in basketball?? That game has changed a lot since I played it when in school..

[McGoat]

lol@all of you, again.

Pages and pages of the same thing, said by the same people.
If you're pugging, and you do not like the results, what are you doing to change the outcome? Why does everything have to be catered to the individual that has an issue with something? How many solo players are out there (fun fact, BCMC and EVIL drop solo too ) keep chugging along trying to get better and making the efforts necessary to overcome the obstacles?

If you don't like it, and cannot handle the outcomes because you will not change yourself, don't play CW. I'm fairly positive you won't be missed by anyone you've dropped with, given the general attitude within this thread.

[r4zen]

Stealthrider, on 12 January 2018 - 03:09 AM, said:

Training Mode Queue

I like the idea. I think it's a good one in theory that could absolutely be fleshed out by a producer and introduced.

If only FP had a dedicated game mode producer and dev support, I feel like this idea is something they would work to introduce.


Too bad FP is basically a deprecated mode at this point...

[Divenity]

Bishop Six, on 12 January 2018 - 01:32 AM, said:

@Divenity

You are talking way too much.

Shame on me for defending my point of view.

Bishop Six, on 12 January 2018 - 02:26 AM, said:

I guess he rage-quitted the thread like he does in the matches.

There's this thing called sleep, you might have heard of it, it's something people do on average for around 8 hours a day.

Xannatharr, on 12 January 2018 - 05:38 AM, said:

I've led teams to a win after a disastrous Wave 1 like that.

Yes, you did, with a team that was willing to follow instructions, these people were not, they wanted to fall back and let you guys come out to us to "farm kills". Letting the game end quickly at that point is simply time efficient...

Appogee, on 12 January 2018 - 04:46 AM, said:

at the cost of destroying the game mode for those of us who play it the way it was designed to be played and the way most of us play it.

Except it wouldn't destroy it. Want to keep queuing into group queue as a solo? Re-read the OP, there's an option for that included, nothing changes for you, queue away.

McGoat, on 12 January 2018 - 09:53 AM, said:

Why does everything have to be catered to the individual that has an issue with something?

If it hadn't been tried in the past, I wouldn't be suggesting it right now, but clearly it's something the devs wanted to make work, but couldn't at the time... Things have changed since then, we no longer have a queue for each individual house and clan, we just have 2, factions and clans, splitting the queues now is actually feasibly possible.

Edited by Divenity, 12 January 2018 - 10:42 AM.

[r4zen]

Divenity, on 12 January 2018 - 10:26 AM, said:

If it hadn't been tried in the past, I wouldn't be suggesting it right now, but clearly it's something the devs wanted to make work, but couldn't at the time... Things have changed since then, we no longer have a queue for each individual house and clan, we just have 2, factions and clans, splitting the queues now is actually feasibly possible.

The argument against the split queue is not "it isn't technically feasible", it's that:

It won't solve the problem you're having.

Until and unless you can explain how to make the split queue work to prevent your problem (that an organized group smashes an unorganized PUG team), then you're just whining.

We're challenging you to defend your assertion that a split queue a la QP will solve the problem of organized players getting matched with unorganized players.

To recap why many of us believe it won't actually help:

With only one bucket, organized groups can easily sync drop in the solo queue and the net effect of splitting queues is very little if any difference to what you see today: 10-12 man groups getting matched against solos or small groups + solos.

Can you add anything constructive to your argument to address this weakness?

[Stealthrider]

To add to what r4zen explained, the other reason a straight split queue won't work is that it does nothing to address the issue of a group of newer players getting stomped on by more experienced groups. I, for one, typically drop with a few RL friends when I'm not solo. We typically hold our own now, sure, but when we were just starting out it was a stomp nearly every game. Not a great experience.

All a split queue would do in that situation would be to give us a choice between playing together with no chance of victory or playing solo and not getting to guarantee dropping together. It doesn't solve either the issue of newbies getting stomped or groups being stuck with potatoes.

My proposed solution solves this issue more elegantly by not limiting the ability to group to solely the larger conflict while still ensuring that newer players get a more forgiving transition into the world of FP.

[Divenity]

r4zen, on 12 January 2018 - 10:35 AM, said:

The argument against the split queue is not "it isn't technically feasible", it's that:

Tell that to all the people in this thread who have word for word said exactly that... You even read the thread?

Quote

It won't solve the problem you're having.

It will reduce the likelihood of it happening significantly, which is enough.

Edited by Divenity, 12 January 2018 - 10:48 AM.

[r4zen]

Divenity, on 12 January 2018 - 10:44 AM, said:

It will reduce the likelihood of it happening significantly, which is enough.

How do you figure? And if it's answered somewhere else in the thread, please do me a solid and reference it, there's a lot of semi-off-topic back and forth to sort through.

[Divenity]

r4zen, on 12 January 2018 - 10:48 AM, said:

How do you figure? And if it's answered somewhere else in the thread, please do me a solid and reference it, there's a lot of semi-off-topic back and forth to sort through.

Groups who want to fight other groups will be staying in group queue, which is enough IMO.

[Stealthrider]

Divenity, on 12 January 2018 - 10:48 AM, said:

Groups who want to fight other groups will be staying in group queue, which is enough IMO.

I think the argument against you can be summed up as follows.

You're trying to stick a band-aid on a festering wound. Sure, it may make things look better on the surface and it may help prevent further infection, but it isn't actually solving the problem. "Good enough" isn't good enough. If the goal is to provide a better environment for solo/newer players, splitting the queue will not do that. Not in the way you want it to.

[r4zen]

Divenity, on 12 January 2018 - 10:48 AM, said:

Groups who want to fight other groups will be staying in group queue, which is enough IMO.

And the groups who don't want to fight other groups? Or, the groups who do want to fight other groups but get 2+ ghost drops and split off into the solo queue and sync drop?

While I will absolutely concede that there may be marginal improvement in solos vs. groups, I don't think it will have much noticeable effect. Especially on slower weeknights. Especially during events when it would be too easy to farm the solo queue for rewards.

Look at what happened to comp queue when EMP was queueing up. Look at what happens during Australia late-night when the group queue is deserted. You will have the same in a split queue FP.

How do you correct for that?

[DaFrog]

Juju Shinobi, on 11 January 2018 - 03:56 AM, said:

Good evening my good and kind sir. Just to jog your memory a tad my dear gentleman, there is a gigantic and very obvious warning that CW is not for solo and new players. It is for groups. Also my dear friend, they have separated the queues before and you'd take an hour or more to find a match. I would highly suggest finding friends to play with or just getting better at the video game.

Thank you for your attention and have a wonderful day =)

It never took me an hour to find a match in FW. 1.0 or 2.0
And very few people did more FW drops than I did.

[Divenity]

r4zen, on 12 January 2018 - 11:00 AM, said:

How do you correct for that?

You don't, it's not possible, but it's still better than nothing.

Edited by Divenity, 12 January 2018 - 11:18 AM.