322 replies to this topic

[KingCobra]

naterist, on 18 January 2018 - 10:09 AM, said:

hes not wrong. when i drop with pugs, sometimes their good players (by which i mean they dont go off and do their own thing), but sometimes you get guys who just are vocally and violently against units. i blame the units that choose to actively be jackasses over all chat. getting pwned is one thing, but when they talk **** over all chat for months (or years now i guess?) to the people their beating, then ya, it ends up leaving a bitter taste in the mouth when people think of units. if you want that to change, get pgi to start reading chat abuse reports. until then, i cant really blame the "bad pugs" for hating units as a whole, when their only consistent exposure to units is shittalking. i wouldnt want to be in a unit either if my only exposure to units was that.

HE is wrong his attitude about solo/new players is exactly why FP is failing it has been that way since the exodus of the old guard units in MWO 3 years ago and has only become worse im a organized team player as well as a pug player for 5 years you know back before the mass exodus organized teams embraced the idea or lets train the new player and solo players to win games now its like adsjkhfaefjha;sdf you get lost and solo/pug/new players resent it and wont play FP for long or until they get a few mech bays and decide it not worth the effort to continue playing FP.

But overall it mostly the lords of MWO,S fault for not setting up QP and FP right from day 1 of there existence and only they can fix the situation I doubt they even control of develop MWO anymore it more than likly is now run and developed my JR developers in the company.

TWIAFU, on 18 January 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

Oh, ok, you want a safe place for solo snowflakes to pugstomp each other without fear of teamwork without ever being able to take a planet but get all the loot.

This rift is there because solo refuse to take responsibility for not reading the warning and wanting to play QP with respawn knowing full well what they will face.

But, we do not have to worry about any changes to suit the anti-social, anti-group, anti-teamwork special solo until well after solaris. Even then, they can go play that solo and never have to worry about teamwork haxxzorz.

another fin example of a wannabe stuck in his own little box.

[Javin]

I think Pugs should still be allowed in FP. Pretty much everyone started out as a Pug. When I started I went into FP and got my teeth pushed in. I learned from getting rolled over and have become better. I am not advocating that if a team goes up a few kills the game ends. I am saying why farm out the last 3-4 mechs? Just end the game so the painful, frankly boring, match ends. Hopefully some of the pilots will rise to the challenge and get better over time.

We can put the blame on killer elite pilots and terribad nubs. Or, we can look at PGI and ask why do they no longer care about FP? FP has lost its way. Many experienced and excellent pilots have stated what is wrong with FP and put up countless ways to improve FP. PGI does not respond. The mode itself is more of the issue then the players.

[ANOM O MECH]

justcallme A S H, on 17 January 2018 - 07:13 PM, said:

Good for you guys.

But after waiting 3-4mins for a match (either side).
3-4mins for the game to load/lobby.
Walking 2 mins across the map to get to the enemy...

I'm not repeating that time wasting again. FP for a lot of people is about Merc/Loyality points and earning rewards. Less kills/damage etc means, less of those rewards.

So it's totally reasonable to expect people to want to maximise their rewards for time played.

I've put forward a way for players to go into training, so far 3 people have taken it up... Yep, just 3. So if the players don't wanna improve, then that is their problem.

#letthefarmingcontinue

Was not sure if your offer was open to guys like myself who are veterens and not completely terrible.

Since only three took you up maybe I could get in on some training?

If not am still grateful I get to drop with you and some of your guys. I also like your drop calling which is something my unit doesn't do as we kind of all just communicate. But for those of us not Hobbles or Merci, your calls helped for me to see the game. I think the one and only time I put out more damage than you (by a couple/few hundred only mind you) was a match you were really vocal and I just wingmaned you.

[LordFatman]

with 3 drop zones and not 1 4 mechs get farmed be for they can get help pgi is to dumb to fix their should be 1 big zone were all 12 drop to help stop farming some maps drop zones are so far apart ever fast lights cant get their in time to help

[MischiefSC]

KingCobra, on 18 January 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

Here we go again more BILE from the wannabe masters of MWO basking in there glory of killing this game because they only see inside the box.

Developers cannot add a game mode to a game and cannot expect new players and other players to play it with its higher rewards and mechbays in FP it was bound to happen and your right MR Wannabe those groups new players and solo players should not be playing against snotty wannabe organized teams they should have had there own version of FP.

Do yoh see anyone asking to drop 12mans in QP?

Do you see anyone demanding to be able to pug in MWOWC with a matchmaker so they can ger big cash prizes withput havong to actually earn them?

Why do you feel entitled to LP rewards without doing what everyone else has done to earn them?

Thousands and thousands of players have managed it. Playing as a team. Its not a unreasonable level of effort to expect.

You trying to claim some sort of moral high ground and imply anyone who doesn't want to see FW fail like group queue when it was made "more casual" or that the whole game, every aspect and facet of it, geared towards terribad casuals, everyone who's actually playing the 12 v 12 team game as a 12 v 12 team game, just wants to see the game fail?

12 v 12. Its a team game. People not playing as a team are choosing to shaft themselves.

The other night a 5man of KCom lost to a team that normally we could easily beat - just couldn't herd the pugs, couldn't pull together enough to carry them -

So we deserved to lose that match and MaZr deserves to beat us. Because its a 12 v 12 team game and playing as a team is the biggest advantage you can have.

People who don't use teamwork deserve to lose and teams that use good teamwork deserve to win because it's 12 v 12 and it's PvP. That'd literally the point and nature of the game.

Put the continent in QP with a matchmaker. If you want LP rewards, earn them with the same effort everyone else has. If someone quits because they want the reward without the effort, good. Nothing of value will be lost.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

LordFatman, on 18 January 2018 - 10:22 AM, said:

with 3 drop zones and not 1 4 mechs get farmed be for they can get help pgi is to dumb to fix their should be 1 big zone were all 12 drop to help stop farming some maps drop zones are so far apart ever fast lights cant get their in time to help

This is again lack of understanding of the mode and it's features. Before PGI stopped development and tossed in the QP maps half hazard, there was progress in the setup of drop zones. If every map had Vitric forge like drop zones, or if they were spread out like Grim Portico defense side, this would be much less of a problem. For Vitric you need jump jets to get into the drop zones for the most part. As for Grim Portico, the game has a built in feature that allows you to shift people between lances, when you shift someone to a new lance, it changes their drop zone. If a drop point is being over run and farmed, you can shift those players to a different zone so you have a chance to regroup and only lose 1 mech instead of their remaining mechs.

But this takes teamwork and communication as the people being farmed can't move themselves, so someone who isn't needs to take company command to move them. So, having far spread drop points is actually a counter to being farmed, if you know, you use teamwork and communication to take advantage of the tools already in game. It's not a perfect solution, but it can mean the difference between losing an extra 1-4 mechs total or having four people permadead. And it doesn't work for every map because some of the drop zones are close together.

[Bud Crue]

KingCobra, on 18 January 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

HE is wrong his attitude about solo/new players is exactly why FP is failing...

Nope. He’s not.
CW is failing because the mode is as PGI wants it. You even state the same thing: “the lords of MWO” setting it up this way.

CW is what it is because that is the way PGI want’s it. We can choose to play the mode (the way they encourage us to...as a team) or not. But its “failure” is not due to teams playing a team based mode as teams, its failure is because PGI has done nothing to encourage people like you (soloist) or people like me (I want my factions and nerd politics back) to play it the way we want, because they are not interested in such changes. They may have legit reasons (lack of population) or not (laziness) for how they have structured the mode, but in the end, it’s their mode and they have made it clear by action and inaction that you need to play as a team if you want to take advantage of the mode as efficiently as possible. Don’t like what they have provided. Tough Noogies.

You want the free stuff, or at least the best chance of getting the free stuff? Then play the game as they are encouraging you to play. If not, getting that free stuff is going to be a lot harder. Being part of a teams make getting all that free stuff a lot easier. If you don’t like playing in that manner, or lack the skill to do it as a soloist, that’s on you.

[Starwulfe]

Put FW content in QP so people can learn, practice, and solo there if they wish. (Won't change stomps as most QP matches I'm in are one sided anyway, very few close matches)

Leave the option to solo in FW. Some of us do drop solo and enjoy the mode, even against teams. Also the solo's in the QP version may want to find a unit or start getting the extra rewards.

As for backing off, not until objectives give better rewards.
Let an objective rush still pay terrible, but after killing some % of mechs you then take objectives, you get full credit as if you killed all 48, in both Cbills and LP.
Currently LP/CBill rewards are heavily tied to mech killing performance.
If you take objectives, you get less than half of a normal payout.
And no matter which way you end a match, people complain.
Because of that, many will try to finish killing the mechs to end the match as quickly as possible, which invariably means you end up in their dropzone.

You're wrong on the payouts. CBills/LP are far better in a FP match than QP/Scout.
I average 1.3-1.5M per FP match, most of which end in less than 15-20m. Scouting and QP are nowhere near that rate.

And for helping new people,or those who have been around but want to learn more: Most of those 'elitist' units have open TS channels where anyone can stop by and drop with them, ask questions, and improve.
Many of those units maintain a presence on the Comstar TS server.

[KingCobra]

MischiefSC, on 18 January 2018 - 10:41 AM, said:

Do yoh see anyone asking to drop 12mans in QP?

Do you see anyone demanding to be able to pug in MWOWC with a matchmaker so they can ger big cash prizes withput havong to actually earn them?

Why do you feel entitled to LP rewards without doing what everyone else has done to earn them?

Thousands and thousands of players have managed it. Playing as a team. Its not a unreasonable level of effort to expect.

You trying to claim some sort of moral high ground and imply anyone who doesn't want to see FW fail like group queue when it was made "more casual" or that the whole game, every aspect and facet of it, geared towards terribad casuals, everyone who's actually playing the 12 v 12 team game as a 12 v 12 team game, just wants to see the game fail?

12 v 12. Its a team game. People not playing as a team are choosing to shaft themselves.

The other night a 5man of KCom lost to a team that normally we could easily beat - just couldn't herd the pugs, couldn't pull together enough to carry them -

So we deserved to lose that match and MaZr deserves to beat us. Because its a 12 v 12 team game and playing as a team is the biggest advantage you can have.

People who don't use teamwork deserve to lose and teams that use good teamwork deserve to win because it's 12 v 12 and it's PvP. That'd literally the point and nature of the game.

Put the continent in QP with a matchmaker. If you want LP rewards, earn them with the same effort everyone else has. If someone quits because they want the reward without the effort, good. Nothing of value will be lost.

All you are doing is justifying seal clubbing new players and solo players in FP and its continued existence until the game mode is dead and MWO as well.Continued same as same as usual is not progress in fact it has been a huge backward step by organized teams and the lords of MWO for the past 3 years not to allow a progressive approach to playing on organized teams .

I personally played on a organized team for 3 years why? because I wanted organized team VS team play not mixed team play and when it became 90% a seal clubbing mess in FP I decided to not play the game mode.If you want to say ya I took the high road so be it.

[Asa Caradine]

so what this all boils down to is this:

Where does the burden of responsibility lie?

Should players who have spent the time, money, and effort to build multiple drop decks refrain from taking every action possible to boost their earnings from a particular match? I've done my fair share of gen rushes and let me tell you; they don't pay well. Why should advanced players have to "tone down" their gameplay in a competitive setting? It is just as much their game as it is ours (us scrubs).

On the other side, should players who are still building their skills and are soloing feel like there is a whole game mode that is cut off from them? Do not such players have a responsibility to seek out units, individuals, or websites to train them so that they obtain the skills to make FW more enjoyable? Is it truly realistic to expect just to jump on and have fun in a highly competitive game mode without taking the time to learn its particular rules and meta-game?

If we really want to increase the interest in FW, trying to handicap those who have invested to play at a very high level isn't going to do anything but drive those players away. This is a competitive game and expecting other to play down because you are not at their level is selfish in the extreme. You as the player chose to put yourself in that situation in full knowledge of what was expected.

This, however, does not solve the issue of low population in FW. We've all talked ad nauseum about how it was supposed to be some grand strategy game where economics, strategy, and tactics all played a major role. It isn't that, and as far as anyone can tell it is never going to be that. More to the point, we as players do not have a way to easily make it like that. Thus, we cannot improve interest via changing core game mechanics.

What I suggest is two part. The first part is exactly what Ash has already done: Have skilled players and units be willing to reach out an help train developing players. Eve has a notoriously steep learning curve, and this is exactly the path their community has taken. It is surprising to me that more people haven't taken him and other up on his offer. I have it on good authority that at least one of the non-l337 merc companies have decided to take Ash up on his offer, though still compared to the total number of players this is just a drop in the bucket. If this effort could be expanded and if people are willing to take it, we could see a real uptick in participation.

The second measure is probably the hardest. Its how we act over VOIP. Let me be clear: rage, scream, **** talk, tell horrible jokes about underperforming players all you want on your private chat server. When we talk to puggles via VOIP though, I suggest the practice restraint in how frustration is expressed. I was recently in an 11-man premade siege attack drop against another premade where our puggle just flat out refused to listen to any of the drop calls, dropped in three lights and a medium, and spent most of the match running off and getting killed by himself. It was very clear from his comments that he thought he knew what he was doing but clearly didn't (and if I can tell you have no idea what you are doing in FW, you KNOW you gotta problem). Needless to say, it was very frustrating for all of us on our premade and especially for our drop caller. Now, we could have lost our ****, and start screaming at this dude (really wanted to). Instead, our drop caller calmly explained some very basic stuff about the order in which most people to drop their mechs, why it's important to stay together, etc. It was (hopefully) a learning experience for him. It certainly helped maintain the positive attitude of our premade for the rest of the night. There are always going to be people who refuse to listen or learn. By keeping VOIP comms cool and instructive, I believe those more seasoned players will be able to help guide us scrubs to a better level of gameplay.

just my two cents

[naterist]

KingCobra, on 18 January 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

words

you both have a valid point, but your coming at it from 2 different perspectives.morally you are in the right, realistically, he is in the right.

it is moral that battletech fans get to play the only mode that is more than slightly linked to the universe that they love, and it is moral that they get to do this without having to leave their comfort zones, as this game is, on its face, built for them.

realistically, in a video game, mischief is correct in saying that this is how the mode is and this is how you succeed in it, and the game mode is designed for units so get in a unit.

overall you can both place blame on pgi for laying the groundwork around units, and then trying to mold it around solos, which is not how the mode was set up, so of course its doomed to fail, as their trying to have a bit of everything in the mode, and its not succeeding because it excels at no specific aspect of either competitive video gaming, nor does it excel as a battletech universe inspired mode. if pgi could just pick one of those two aspects to focus on and do things with, then itd be ok, but they havent, so its not working out that well. that leads to this endless debate, which both sides have in game evidence to back up, but neither is compatable with the other. so in essence, your both right, and your both wrong. pgi's confusion has become our confusion.

Edited by naterist, 18 January 2018 - 11:22 AM.

[Bud Crue]

naterist, on 18 January 2018 - 10:57 AM, said:

you both have a valid point, but your coming at it from 2 different perspectives.morally you are in the right, realistically, he is in the right. it is moral that battletech fans get to play the only mode that is more than slightly linked to the universe that they love, and it is moral that they get to do this without having to leave their comfort zones, as this game is, on its face, built for them.

realistically, in a video game, mischief is correct in saying that this is how the mode is and this is how you succeed in it, and the game mode is designed for units so get in a unit.

overall you can both place blame on pgi for laying the groundwork around units, and then trying to mold it around solos, which is not how the mode was set up, so of course its doomed to fail, as their trying to have a bit of everything in the mode, and its not succeeding because it excels at no specific aspect of either competitive video gaming, nor does it excel as a battletech universe inspired mode. if pgi could just pick one of those two aspects to focus on and do things with, then itd be ok, but they havent, so its not working out that well. that leads to this endless debate, which both sides have in game evidence to back up, but neither is compatable with the other. so in essence, your both right, and your both wrong. pgi's confusion has become our confusion.

Moral, schmoral.
This mode is an extension of PGI’s F2P business model for this entertainment product and nothing more.
Play it as they intend it to be played and minimize your frustration and be entertained, or don’t and be less entertained and more frustrated, or don’t play it at all.
There is nothing moral about it. Its just a decision as to the manner in which you play a game. Meh.

[Asa Caradine]

naterist, on 18 January 2018 - 10:57 AM, said:

you both have a valid point, but your coming at it from 2 different perspectives.morally you are in the right, realistically, he is in the right.

it is moral that battletech fans get to play the only mode that is more than slightly linked to the universe that they love, and it is moral that they get to do this without having to leave their comfort zones, as this game is, on its face, built for them.

realistically, in a video game, mischief is correct in saying that this is how the mode is and this is how you succeed in it, and the game mode is designed for units so get in a unit.

overall you can both place blame on pgi for laying the groundwork around units, and then trying to mold it around solos, which is not how the mode was set up, so of course its doomed to fail, as their trying to have a bit of everything in the mode, and its not succeeding because it excels at no specific aspect of either competitive video gaming, nor does it excel as a battletech universe inspired mode. if pgi could just pick one of those two aspects to focus on and do things with, then itd be ok, but they havent, so its not working out that well. that leads to this endless debate, which both sides have in game evidence to back up, but neither is compatable with the other. so in essence, your both right, and your both wrong. pgi's confusion has become our confusion.

I have to push back on this just a bit. You assert that it is the right of anyone who is a Battletech fan to be able to play any game that makes use of that IP without having to leave their comfort zone. Thus anyone, through their superior gameplay or other means, that prevents them from playing that game within said comfort zone is morally wrong.

How can something as amorphous as a players comfort level to be considered a grounding for a moral decision? Your underlying argument, that less skilled players have a moral right to play this game mode within their "comfort zone" (or in other words their skill level), fails in two major regards. First, your argument disenfranchises skilled FW players of their right to enjoy the FW. Do not more skilled players also have a moral right to play the game how they choose? If they way they choose to play results in success and they then choose to increase inter reward by farming damage, how can you say they are being immoral for doing so? Do you then argue that winning by playing within the bounds of the rules set is immoral?

The second failure of this argument is that it rests on the assumption that this game was only designed for those who are Fans of the greater Battletech universe and those who play well and farm in FW are not fans fo the Battletech IP. This is a baseless assumption and one that cannot be born out. I can guarantee that there are top level FW players that Love the Battletech IP and play style just as much as any scrub. Given that, your argument has no logical basis and be thrown out.

[naterist]

Bud Crue, on 18 January 2018 - 11:24 AM, said:

Moral, schmoral.
This mode is an extension of PGI’s F2P business model for this entertainment product and nothing more.
Play it as they intend it to be played and minimize your frustration and be entertained, or don’t and be less entertained and more frustrated, or don’t play it at all.
There is nothing moral about it. Its just a decision as to the manner in which you play a game. Meh.

tons of teams playing in 12 mans and being coordinated over in quickplay, seems like a lot of people chose to play things the fw way, just not in fw. thats a sign that somethings jacked up, so its clearly not the units playground people seem to think it is, and at the same time, you have a bunch of battletech fans funding and waiting for hbs's battletech game because fw is not a product that competes with that market.

the mode has litterally failed in both regards to the highest degree possible. they can pick a focus that gets them goodwill (catering to solos who love battletech) and make an indepth game that allows people to log on and have a good time, or they can cater to a bunch of units who seem to just want to fight other units (btw, the mode for doing that is group que). it seems like they have chosen neither crowd to please, or more likely, they tried to please both but didnt give it any serious effort, and thats how we have fw 4.1

im pretty sure there isnt even a proper way to play the mode anymore, as the focus is supposed to be the planetary meta game, and most people who drop daily in fw dont even bother looking at it due to group dropping into fw being accessable from the home page with the group tab open. used to be a commited group of pugs could at least delay a units advances on a planet in 3.0 long enough to save the planet from switching over, even if they didnt win any of the matches (whats called a strategic victory), but that isnt a thing anymore with the 1 que solution. its litterally qp with respawns, and every now and again you get 15 mc in your coffers to spread between 20-30 people, and if you zoom in really hard and squint you can see your unit tags above a glowing dot.

[naterist]

Asa Caradine, on 18 January 2018 - 11:38 AM, said:

I have to push back on this just a bit. You assert that it is the right of anyone who is a Battletech fan to be able to play any game that makes use of that IP without having to leave their comfort zone. Thus anyone, through their superior gameplay or other means, that prevents them from playing that game within said comfort zone is morally wrong.

i was more going for, since they arent pleasing units they may as well try and please the guys who funded the game via founders packs and hundreds of dollars given to support their favorite IP, but ya, i get your point on that. and more that pgi is morally wrong for not anticipating this, and bare minimum not stopping it a few YEARS into the lifespan of the mode, not as much the units their fighting. if i thought it was the units fault then id have no moral standing either, as we crushed 5 clan pug teams in a row the other night, and made them all cry their way to bed or whatever it is pugs do now a days after a match in 4.1

Edited by naterist, 18 January 2018 - 11:44 AM.

[Windscape]

There is one thing that everyone sugested but PGI refuses to do. A proper mech academy tutorial. For FP. I doubt this will happen soon tho, so i have two different sugestions.

One is been suggested many times already, but ive added my own twist to it.
If your lower than tier 3, faction play is prohibited UNLESS you are in a group.
If your tier 4, you need to be in a group with at least 4 other players.
If your tier 5, you need to be in a group with at least 8 other players.
From my time in the FRRhub, i have seen many new players join and improve quicker when in a group rather than being alone. Being with other players will also boost morale, even when they loose.

My 2nd suggestion: you must be in a unit to play FP.
If you're in a unit, you are more likely to be a better player and have more knowlege of FP. This could be combined with my first sugesstion, but i would lessen the penalties if your in a unit.

Hopefully these suggestions will allow for more quality players in FP without too much losses in the playerbase.

[naterist]

Windscape, on 18 January 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

My 2nd suggestion: you must be in a unit to play FP.
If you're in a unit, you are more likely to be a better player and have more knowlege of FP. This could be combined with my first sugesstion, but i would lessen the penalties if your in a unit.

Hopefully these suggestions will allow for more quality players in FP without too much losses in the playerbase.

idk about unit, how about you have to be in a group >1 player in it.

keep scouting open to the yolo solos. thats the cleanest split that allows for best of both worlds. solos have a place to contribute, and therefore get their feeling of being part of the universe, and invasion is groups who get their feeling of mrbc minus the scheduling. everyone wins.

[Bud Crue]

naterist, on 18 January 2018 - 11:40 AM, said:

Cold reality

I do not debate any of that, merely your assertion that there is a moral imperative at play in providing Battletech fans with some sort of comfort zone mode. Might that be a good business decision? Perhaps; HBS is about to find out. The CW mode PGI provides is a mess. No debate. But it is a mess due to their failure to focus on an aspect of the player community (as you and others have pointed out) that would support the mode, to market the mode, to instruct folks in how to approach and play the mode, to provide adequate rewards to encourage participation in the mode, etc. and I don’t see that as a moral issue is all only a failure of vision and design. Only moral issue I see in this game is between the founders and PGI, and that is different thread and none of my concern.

[naterist]

Bud Crue, on 18 January 2018 - 11:54 AM, said:

I do not debate any of that, merely your assertion that there is a moral imperative at play in providing Battletech fans with some sort of comfort zone mode. Might that be a good business decision? Perhaps; HBS is about to find out. The CW mode PGI provides is a mess. No debate. But it is a mess due to their failure to focus on an aspect of the player community (as you and others have pointed out) that would support the mode, to market the mode, to instruct folks in how to approach and play the mode, to provide adequate rewards to encourage participation in the mode, etc. and I don’t see that as a moral issue is all only a failure of vision and design. Only moral issue I see in this game is between the founders and PGI, and that is different thread and none of my concern.

the word moral IS a bit of a stretch, but its the closest word i can think of for the concept i am trying to impart.

i say everything im saying with the thought in mind that this entire argument doesn't even matter as the only update to fw were likely to get is the one were they delete it for being a black mark on their self perceived perfect record (even pgi cant convince themselves that this shitshow is primo game making)

[Windscape]

naterist, on 18 January 2018 - 11:53 AM, said:

idk about unit, how about you have to be in a group >1 player in it.

For scouting idc, solos can do whatever, no restrictions. But i think a unit requirement would be very beneficial to invasion. Perhaps PGI could even have a page that sugests some of the most active units in FP, for all the factions, to help new players find a unit faster.