467 replies to this topic

[Roland09]

Deathlike, on 28 January 2018 - 04:19 PM, said:

New players quit because of PGI.

What PGI is really to be blamed for?:

Not enough useful tutorials, particularly for FP/CW

True. We all wince when we see a new player actually shoot the gate (not the gate generator), trying to open it, or the big bad omega cannon (again, not the gen), or the generator boxes... But where in the game is a tutorial on how to do it right?

When a new player fails to grasp the concept of generators, the fault is not entirely with the new guy.

[Deathlike]

Well, a simple solution is being able to have R target that object like previous MW games.

Trying to obfuscate it only serves to prove that it wasn't thought through thoroughly.

[Danjo San]

Slow Speed, on 27 January 2018 - 07:10 AM, said:

I can try to imagine a scenario based on my own experience.

Lets imagine most newer players will stay in QP until they have grinded enough to have 4 own mechs in their garage.

At this stage you will need more bays, and those free ones in FP will start to look very tempting. However, at this stage, they would be very lucky if they find that any of the mechs they own are even remotely suitable for FP.

But, they will give it a shot anyhow and thus get their first experience of how it is to play FP. Heavily handicaped by their initial mech choices, and most would prolly be better of just taking some of the trial mechs to battle.

With events, they hand out more than enough MC and even Mechbays at times.
If a new player chooses to spend those MC on Warhorns and cockpit items, no one can help him there.
One of the players in my unit never once spent a single cent on MWO and has 50+ Mechs and bays to spare.
The Grind is not as bad as many try to tell you, just need to keep an eye out for the events.

That said, this is Faction Play Sub-Forum, hence I believe the OP is asking: "Why are new players leaving FP?"
Phase 1+2 You got in Queue, waited for a long time, then 12man after 12man after 12man would stomp you.
Fun Fact, most of the time they had the same tag but were different players.
People grew tired of this and stopped dropping, wait times increased. planets could be taken within the last 20min prior to ceasefire. Large Mercenenary Groups moved in bulk, flooding some queues and draining others...
Split Queue was the dumbest call ever, cutting the queues down even further and wait times got even worse.
At this point the wonderful world of scouting was introduced and with it came the almighty long tom.
Long tom and how long the Lord clenched his fingers to it was inevitably the nail in the coffin. People were fleeing in numbers!
The final solution was to fuse all queues into one bukkit.
It did help with the wait times, but exterminated the last bit of remaing Lore and what it meant to belong to a faction. Faction specific Teamspeak servers shut down, or fused together. Loyal House Units no longer communicated with each other. Communities have isolated themselves. Not to mention how useless "War Planning" has become. We had so much fun negotiating treaties, and focussing forces on one or the other front... now nobody even bothers to read the list of roundabout 40 planets up for votes
We are at a tipping point. There are some of us left that actually still like to play this mode, regardless of the flaws and failures that lead to the mass exodus and isolation of remaining players and units. (Note that I did not address topics like Weapon Balance, thats on a whole different page, and for IS vs .IS and Clan vs. Clan it was irrelevant) And others that are new to the mode and perhaps don't understand everything yet. The level of hostility towards those new players occasionaly takes on epic proportions.
I've seen veterans insult, shoot and even teamkill players for not bringing the "right" mechs. I've seen veterans deliberatly ignore calls by less experienced players, letting them walk to their demise and then insult them afterwards as noobs. I've seen veterans smash the living S*** out of an enemy team and then taunting them over chat. How will that keep new players interested?
PGI laid out the blueprint to the downfall of the playerbase. The framework is set, nothing much we can do about it other than tweeting prayers to the Lord himself. However, We as a community can be hostile or inclusive. That's not up to the Lord, that's our own call.

[Danjo San]

Roland09, on 28 January 2018 - 10:35 PM, said:

True. We all wince when we see a new player actually shoot the gate (not the gate generator), trying to open it, or the big bad omega cannon (again, not the gen), or the generator boxes... But where in the game is a tutorial on how to do it right?

When a new player fails to grasp the concept of generators, the fault is not entirely with the new guy.

I've said this in an earlier thread somewhere once.
People were asking how to gate FP. How to keep all the new players out that can't even pilot their mechs accurately.
You need a Faction Play Tutorial. This Tutorial should include basic training, where are the Generators? How do you open the gate? Where to shoot Omega.
It should include basic tactics: Which mech to drop first, Regroup, don't reinforce. Pushes through Chokepoints/ defend Chokepoints.
Only upon completion of this madatory Faction Play Tutorial, Faction Play will be unlocked.

[Sjorpha]

Danjo San, on 29 January 2018 - 02:34 AM, said:

I've seen veterans insult, shoot and even teamkill players for not bringing the "right" mechs. I've seen veterans deliberatly ignore calls by less experienced players, letting them walk to their demise and then insult them afterwards as noobs. I've seen veterans smash the living S*** out of an enemy team and then taunting them over chat. How will that keep new players interested?
PGI laid out the blueprint to the downfall of the playerbase. The framework is set, nothing much we can do about it other than tweeting prayers to the Lord himself. However, We as a community can be hostile or inclusive. That's not up to the Lord, that's our own call.

While gaming communities can be more or less welcoming, there is always a range of behavior good and bad. Blaming the success or failure of a game on the players is simply a fallacy and a dead end. Sure it would be nice if everyone was nice but many games are vastly more successful at attracting new players and at the same time have much more hostile communities than MWO, which actually has a relatively nice and welcoming community. Not as nice and welcoming as for example Dominions 4/5 but a lot more nice and welcoming than Counterstrike or CoD.

So evidently the player retention rate of a game is primarily about good design and support, not about the rate of hostility.

I'm not saying that being nice to newbies isn't a good thing, only that it is a fallacy to put forward anecdotes of hostility as the explanation behind poor player retention, just as it would be a fallacy to list examples of nice veterans as a counter argument. It's simply not a major factor.

[Achle]

I was a new play that quit but has returned.

My reason for quiting Faction battles was because my team was steamrolled in every single match and I was literally taken out in a couple seconds no matter what I piloted. It was not so much a matter of not understanding. Stay with vets and don’t just stand there in open...don’t modify your Mech with no experience and expect your build to wreck face...etc etc

I am Clan Ghost Bear now and originally. I switched to IS at one point and guess what? Steamrolled by clan team. Lol!

I think it’s really that you need to expect to lose a lot unless you are in a...guild...or whatever it’s called here. I noticed I was mostly players my PUG vs premade which we all know is painful.

That and trying to play with builds or have enough mechs to have a full dropship is expensive....and I even had the Clan package around 240 bucks.

I have since sold most and gotten some better choices...and oddly I end up in top 50% of my team...but we still get stomped more often then not and I am still not in a “guild”.

Might have to change that...but work two jobs so it’s tough

[Roland09]

Grimhorn, on 29 January 2018 - 11:02 AM, said:

...but we still get stomped more often then not and I am still not in a “guild”.

Might have to change that...but work two jobs so it’s tough

Alternatively, hit up Ash. That's the guy who started this thread: https://mwomercs.com...g/page__st__120

Send him a friend invite and go from there, when he is online.

[Throe]

[deleted by user]

Edited by Throe, 08 November 2018 - 04:37 PM.

[Leone]

@Grimhorn

I offer advice as well. Also, if you download teamspeak, most units'll let you drop with 'em if you they don't have a full twelve. You've pugged, you know how bad the cohesion can be. Anyone who puts in the effort to hop onto teamspeak is better'n hoping for a good pug.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 29 January 2018 - 12:52 PM.

[W4R GOD]

Leone, on 29 January 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

I offer advice as well. Also, if you download teamspeak, most units'll let you drop with 'em if you they don't have a full twelve. You've pugged, you know how bad the cohesion can be. Anyone who puts in the effort to hop onto teamspeak is better'n hoping for a good pug.

~Leone.

Exactly. There are multiple hubs you can go to and ask to join with existing groups who know how to play. Its up to the solo player to ask not the other way around.

[ANOM O MECH]

Danjo San, on 29 January 2018 - 02:34 AM, said:

With events, they hand out more than enough MC and even Mechbays at times.
If a new player chooses to spend those MC on Warhorns and cockpit items, no one can help him there.
One of the players in my unit never once spent a single cent on MWO and has 50+ Mechs and bays to spare.
The Grind is not as bad as many try to tell you, just need to keep an eye out for the events.

That said, this is Faction Play Sub-Forum, hence I believe the OP is asking: "Why are new players leaving FP?"
Phase 1+2 You got in Queue, waited for a long time, then 12man after 12man after 12man would stomp you.
Fun Fact, most of the time they had the same tag but were different players.
People grew tired of this and stopped dropping, wait times increased. planets could be taken within the last 20min prior to ceasefire. Large Mercenenary Groups moved in bulk, flooding some queues and draining others...
Split Queue was the dumbest call ever, cutting the queues down even further and wait times got even worse.
At this point the wonderful world of scouting was introduced and with it came the almighty long tom.
Long tom and how long the Lord clenched his fingers to it was inevitably the nail in the coffin. People were fleeing in numbers!
The final solution was to fuse all queues into one bukkit.
It did help with the wait times, but exterminated the last bit of remaing Lore and what it meant to belong to a faction. Faction specific Teamspeak servers shut down, or fused together. Loyal House Units no longer communicated with each other. Communities have isolated themselves. Not to mention how useless "War Planning" has become. We had so much fun negotiating treaties, and focussing forces on one or the other front... now nobody even bothers to read the list of roundabout 40 planets up for votes
We are at a tipping point. There are some of us left that actually still like to play this mode, regardless of the flaws and failures that lead to the mass exodus and isolation of remaining players and units. (Note that I did not address topics like Weapon Balance, thats on a whole different page, and for IS vs .IS and Clan vs. Clan it was irrelevant) And others that are new to the mode and perhaps don't understand everything yet. The level of hostility towards those new players occasionaly takes on epic proportions.
I've seen veterans insult, shoot and even teamkill players for not bringing the "right" mechs. I've seen veterans deliberatly ignore calls by less experienced players, letting them walk to their demise and then insult them afterwards as noobs. I've seen veterans smash the living S*** out of an enemy team and then taunting them over chat. How will that keep new players interested?
PGI laid out the blueprint to the downfall of the playerbase. The framework is set, nothing much we can do about it other than tweeting prayers to the Lord himself. However, We as a community can be hostile or inclusive. That's not up to the Lord, that's our own call.

I am in a unit that is considered by most as one of the better units playing right now.

I also pug a lot. I pug in alts, I pug in my main account that I drop with BCMC with. I pug in free to play accounts on both sides. I pug in a well equipped dirty Clanner account I set up when in an IS loyalist unit. So I know both sides of this argument well.

Seen all of what you describe. Am guilty of unsportsmanlike conduct in the past concerning loadouts, tactics (ie people reinforcing after everyone asking that they don't), and rubbing in a lop sided win. As I have gotten marginally better, I have moved towards being as constructive over comms as possible, since I can privately joke with my unit without causing any offense. Have also decided since I pug a lot and telling anyone, anything is usually a bad idea, it is better and easier to help whatever team whatever way I can. Sometimes that looks like me jumping into a narc mech to help lrm guys instead of shade them. The approach is working better for me than being a sarcastic richard. Again, know both sides is my point.

Have also been spawned many, many times and even by my own unit members, which most I consider to be at least online friends. Have also been a part horrendously lopsided wins, which ended in the enemies spawn. Even have fond memories of how old Evil, wouldn't even let you open up the gates when they were defending Boreal. Saw that so many times, and in the most literal sense where the team I was on did not shoot the gate gen at all. Sucky as that is you have to admire folks that are just that good.

Have experienced pretty much everything you describe, so much that for a long time I disabled ingame voip and used TS exclusively (for over a year it was off full time). Will still disable it if I am having an off day, or if it becomes super toxic.

The difference between our experience seems to be who in the player base is to blame. In fact, I am not inclined to blame the pugs or the units for ruining the mode. I also don't imply or infer that the toxic behaviour is only coming from the unit side.

There are toxic players in units, and there are even more of them pugging happily along (since pug are what, 90% of the players?). Hackusations, running out of bounds or ejecting, running around and hiding to prolong matches, oh and lets include that constant hate for being in a unit. Not that I can't appreciate the frustration, but how certain folks choose to deal with it is an issue for me. Even more so considering a mass ejection tantrum over the holidays appears to have worked to the degree PGI, changed event requirements to appease people behaving poorly. Bad precedent....

Then there's these here forums were the unit folks are the devil.

So that we are in a position that is similar to the old proverb 'doctor heal thyself' and it is not a particularly strong one. PGI needs to invest in CW first and foremost, which doesn't look like it is happening. At all.

[Danjo San]

tker 669, on 29 January 2018 - 12:29 PM, said:

so much that for a long time I disabled ingame voip and used TS exclusively (for over a year it was off full time). Will still disable it if I am having an off day, or if it becomes super toxic.

man, I get the frustration. However, rather than turning it off altogether I would suggest muting only the toxic players.

Played with two members from my unit FP yesterday and the rest of the team was always filled up with random Solo Players.
I commanded over Voip, told everyone in Chat to turn it on as I will take command.
This one match yesterday we had two players not on Voip, they almost cost us match, luckily one of the two managed to keep an eye on the minimap, but with him not pushing on command other players also stood back, the other player tried to regroup at a wrong position, we had to alter tactics on the fly as we were behind, after having to chat him into turning it back on we barely managed to regain control of the match and managed to pull out a win.
In another match, the first push failed, not horribly but considerably bad. we had one DC from the start and another not on Voip. The non Voip Player reinforced mindlessly setting us back even further. Things began to turn toxic. Players shouting, pointing fingers, hindsighting... a few calming words put them back on track, I reminded them to stay focused, we adapted tactics and pulled out a win with only ten "active" players. Fought it out, didn't objective rush as well... it was close 48:40 or so
the last match of the day we got matched up against a 12 man, skirmish on Forest colony. I rallied my team to a defensive position expecting a heavy push. One of the enemies apparently got stuck in terrain and had to eject his first mech.
Then a full Linebacker push rolls in and obliterates us. the ejecter reinforced and we pulled first wave 13:12
Great, we decided to defend the center dropzone. Set up a firing line, second wave Linebackers and one Hellbringer roll in, we pull 25:24 still up one kill the Match timer is running out, we expected a full Piranha asault, so we decided to circle the outer border of the map running down the timer.
Now while all of us aside one player, (who was not on voip) discussed and agreed on this plan, suddenly this player writes in Teamchat, Hey we could go to C6 and run down the clock, "Duh, been the plan, turn on voip!"
Unfortunately we had 2 Assaults on the third wave and they didn't move quick enough. The enemies, surprisingly not in Piranhas but Mad-IIcs spotted our slow movers, we almost outran the clock, somewhat like 90seconds left, when they killed 3-4 players...

Point being, don't turn off Voip! It makes pulling a win harder, you can't defuse toxic situations, it does more damage than good.
Even if you are on TS, relay information out, be inclusive!
Players on the last match I described actually said, this match was so much fun, great to see Pugs actually working as a team, despite going up against a double linebacker rush of a coordinated 12man group we pulled a "GG Close"

What you describe of "that constant hate for being in a unit" I don't really get. Never once have I experienced hate for playing in a unit. Ok, my unit is very casual. Even when we dropped in a large group we never experienced hatred against anyone of us...
There must have been something that caused this reaction towards you. Perhaps something that happened before you joined that unit. Some Units just evoke negative reactions. and that doesn't necessarily have to do with being effective. There are effective Units in the game that are respected and there are effective units that are hated.
Guess who created their perception? Hint, it was not PGI!

Yes I agree, PGI needs to invest in CW! And it does look like nothing is happening.
But when I leave a match, and random players tell me that they never had that much fun dropping in a pug group, I do believe I made them feel better about the mode and made their stay more enjoyable. Picture it the other way round, insulting teammates, not coordinating them, perhaps even teamdamaging on purpose or feeding the toxicity in Voip... Which helps retain the playerbase?
Which helps to make the experience enjoyable?

Cheers

[Ivor]

I just read through this whole thing because it's been something on my mind lately. And I have to say I think some of you are en pointe. I don't think it's primarily the game design, though that's certainly a part and it could be better. The thing is, a lot of us have moved beyond that and are working around that. And there IS a learning curve. I still have a lot to learn. And it's not that you guys aren't welcoming. Since being accepted into MAZR (I still don't know why... I was... not good) I've improved a lot and found my niche. And I know a lot of you wouldn't hesitate to take new players under your wings. I'm learning more about the community now than I ever knew. But one of the discouraging things is the salt. As someone said, "All these flavors and you choose to be salty?"

Now, I know it's not you guys most of the time. Hell, even I get salty sometimes. But I've noticed that callers that tend towards berating their team into following rather than guiding and encouraging them don't exactly inspire confidence. And there are plenty of pugs that spew more salt than a town maintenance truck in Canadian winter. But if we want to keep people (especially during the ever rare FP event) we need to call it out and override it in public comms when we see that happening. Constructive advice and encouragement work wonders, even if you have that giant boulder of salt on your side. Additionally it's HOW you say as much as WHAT you say. "LRMS are useless NOOB" will get no one on your side. "Hey, instead of LRMs try ERLL and you'll do much better" will get people thinking. For example, a recent QP I had I brought my PIR-A with quad AMS to skill it up ( I like to grind my mechs to get used to them). I built it to be an umbrella, not to dish out damage, but to allow my teammates not to get destroyed by missiles and basically do the damage I would do over time. I only have 3 ERML on that build accordingly. I know, not the best build. But it does exactly what I want it to (shoot down 700+ missiles average and can get about 300 dmg to boot). And the response I got was "Three med lasers on a pirahna!?" My response was an explanation of what I was doing and why. I didn't get any feedback for something better ('cause pugs) but I opened up that conversation. I got a few "huh... I may try that"s but would have also welcomed someone critiquing my build.

TL:DR Be supportive of pugs, bring them up rather than berating them. Make it a good time and they'll stay, despite any game design and balance issues. It's not the game people usually stick around for, but the community and the friends we make.

[naterist]

im hurt, what, is MY troll thread not good enough to get deleted? pft, what a let down.

[InvictusLee]

-Trial mechs suck.
-Tier 5 sucks.

Drunk players suck.
Lone wolves suck.
Its a team sport, no one likes playing on a team in lower tiers.

-Being stuck both, its really easy to hate life until you biy yoyr own mech or rank up.

Edited by November11th, 30 January 2018 - 12:22 PM.

[Johnathan Tanner]

naterist, on 30 January 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

im hurt, what, is MY troll thread not good enough to get deleted? pft, what a let down.

Told ya'ed you'd need bigger bait. Dis is not de wae.

[McGoat]

[ANOM O MECH]

Danjo San, on 30 January 2018 - 06:07 AM, said:

Point being, don't turn off Voip! It makes pulling a win harder, you can't defuse toxic situations, it does more damage than good.
Even if you are on TS, relay information out, be inclusive!
Players on the last match I described actually said, this match was so much fun, great to see Pugs actually working as a team, despite going up against a double linebacker rush of a coordinated 12man group we pulled a "GG Close"


Cheers

Absolutely appreciate what you are saying.

Most of what you said is why I turn it on when pugging. Which is a lot.

BCMC will also communicate with pugs on our side and we often invite them to join our ts if they are inclined to do so.

One thing I will mention though is that we don't have drop callers. We have players that will take the lead more than others, but we all will communicate when needed.

So if I drop with you, I will listen to a lot of what the guy taking charge has to say and play as part of that team I am on at that moment. I may disregard some of it however, if it is outside of what I can do. Brawling for instance is not what you want to send me in to do. You want me to poke and peek while hopefully making those trades wisely.

You sound though, like someone who is a leader. I can be one. I am a supervisor at work. MWO, however is not my job (I am an expert at my job and could never claim to be an expert at MWO!!!). So I have given up trying to lead or do anything other than being a helpful teammate and be considerate. That's not being exclusive, it is just another way I play to my strengths and not showcase my weaknesses (ie character flaws and Scotch/Irish temper).

[Achle]

My new reason....


getting steam rolled game after game after game...then during the one game I am winning I get DCed mid game and it wont let me reconnect.!

Who wants my stuff! grrr.......

[naterist]

man, they should place solos with groups, and give them them the ability to communicate through voip as typing and explaining do not coalesce in this game, and give em access the mechlab, then, and heres the important part, have them and the unit be able to choose to stay together for faster reque, or not, if 1 side or the other doesnt want to.

get these pugs consistently around units in a capacity that encourages pass down of knowledge and the ability for units to get their pugs ability to fight alongside them increased through giving them builds to put on their mechs while waiting to que. these pugs who come in here all pissed during events are probably like that because they get steamrolled by units right after, but their in pug groups, and only know the pug on pug action events create, so its a hell of a shock, they need to have a more positive first introduction to units, because their end goal if they continue should be to find a unit, or a place to find groups consistently, and theres no obvious segway into it. in fact, the first run in against a 12 man in a pug group is fruckin brutal, and its a major turn off to units in general, which the above is aimed at avoiding. then fw becomes kinda cool, since its like an rp place, and a great way to find recruits to your unit eventually, and for units to be formed more easily through people who have a more positive, and educating experience with them, as opposed to a kinda unwarranted fear and loathing we have now. i think id have a hard time hating units as a concept if every time i dropped they helped me out and you could play with them a consistently and see what they do. it also makes getting 12 mans qued up easier, as people may be more likely to stay with a winning or fun unit and therefore get 12 in que, and coordinated now, faster. cause theres a lot of new player rage that is a bit misdirected, and it cant be for no reason now can it?

idk, im lit.

Edited by naterist, 30 January 2018 - 11:34 PM.