123 replies to this topic

[Snowbluff]

Throe, on 16 February 2018 - 11:23 AM, said:

Sadly, MWO's current engine makes no provision for this type of weight variance. All 'Mechs move at a given speed for their current engine rating and tonnage rating, with no regard to actual weight.

*looks at mobility stats* Sure, whatever you think.

[Humpday]

The thing used to be a terror, probably really good pilots can make it so today, but back then...man were those things dangerous.
The Locust of the past is what the PIR-1 is today...an absolute murderer. Now...its rare that I'll make a Lucust a priority other than me chewing it up in my PIR...anything heavier and I just ignore it and let someone else chase it around.

I don't think its useless as I've witnessed people do well in it from time to time, but its usually few and far between.

Edited by Humpday, 16 February 2018 - 01:23 PM.

[Metus regem]

Humpday, on 16 February 2018 - 12:51 PM, said:

The thing used to be a terror, probably really good pilots can make it so today, but back then...man were those things dangerous.
The Locust of the past is what the PIR-1 is today...an absolute murderer. Now...its rare that I'll make a Lucust a priority other than my chewing it up in my PIR...anything heavier and I just ignore it and let someone else chase it around.

I don't think its useless as I've witnessed people do well in it from time to time, but its usually few and far between.

Very true, they need a special skill set to make the most of... I generally direct anyone that is interested in them to The Underrated Locust thread... A lot of the data maybe old, but the basic skills and tricks it shows are not.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

There is plenty wrong with Inner Sphere when it comes to 20 ton mechs. Lasers are pretty much all you can fit in a Locust, but Inner Sphere small and medium class lasers suck. You can't boat machine guns cause at most it has 2 4 ballistics slots, while the ******* Clan Piranha has up to 12 MG slots. Oh, and you also suffer from all the downsides of IS XL engine on an already fragile mech.

Also, there's that whole thing about Clan MGs not basically being 1/2 an IS one, despite the lighter weight.

A 4 MG Locust should be hitting like a Clan 8 MG Mist Lynx in terms of dakkapower.

Quote

As for why should it be limited to 20 tons, Locust is by lore a 20 ton mech. That is the highest it will go. You want bigger tonnage, pilot other mechs.

Amusingly enough, there's actually an upgraded 25-ton version built on the Locust chassis, known as the Koto.

The -P2, 3A and 4A are all MWO legal, too. It'd be an almost trivial addition to make, since it's basically a barely-upsized LCT.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 16 February 2018 - 01:08 PM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Brain Cancer, on 16 February 2018 - 01:06 PM, said:

A 4 MG Locust should be hitting like a Clan 8 MG Mist Lynx in terms of dakkapower.

Let's ignore that this shouldn't be case with regards to "Lore" and consider the actual ramifications of something like that. I'm not too sure about that actually creating an overall balance:

1. You'd then get an Ember with an effective number of 10 machineguns at a speed (unskilled) above the quirked Mist Lynx but below the Piranha ... but one that easily carries 100 more points of armor than the Lynx (and thus the Piranha as well) with the about the same amount of ammo, 3 jump jets and 4 small lasers with better dps than their clan counterparts and that won't ever manage to significantly heat up that Ember except maybe on Terra Therma or the caldera on Caustic Valley

2. You'd also get a Pirate's Bane with an effective number of 4 machine guns, higher speeds than both Lynx and Piranha, ECM, Stealth armor and once again 4 small lasers with a better heat situation, shorter burn duration and lower cooldown ... admittedly with a lower initial alpha but ultimately those ankle biter mechs always need a bit of "face time" so in the "longer run" the higher dps is key.

3. You'd get another Locust with an effective number of 8 machine guns

4. One Osiris with effetively 8 machine guns and IIRC at least two others with then 4

5. One Raven with 8 effective mgs and one with 4

6. One Spider with 8 mgs and one with 4

7. A series of Urbis with 2, 4, 6 and 8 machine guns

and that's just the "light" side.

=> whatever PGI has to do to counter the boating of machine guns in Lynxes and Piranhas - provided that these mechs actually pose a measurable factor of imbalance instead of just being an asymetric build option - I'd advise against introducing things like double damage on IS mgs, double RoF on IS mgs and certainly mg arrays of neither the 2 nor the 4 variety should enter the game and most definitely not just for one side.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 16 February 2018 - 01:43 PM.

[Yumoshiri]

I felt very sad reading this. The locust is a difficult mech to get started with, but it has its use. You bought the 1V variant, which is quite nice.

Build ideas:
Option 1: 4x heavy machine guns + small laser, XL190
Option 1b: 4x machine guns, medium pulse, XL190
Option 2: ER large laser, XL190 or Standard 180
Option 3: Snubnose PPC, XL190


It has a very complex role. Just shooting things like you could do on a heavy mech just doesn't work for the locust - you have to play it with your brain.

You play a scout, you play a flanker, you run and never stand still, you make use of artillery, you shread components, you distract enemies away from your team, you capture flags or batteries.

A locust will not reward you with c-bills, but they will bring you joy and tears.

Three rules as a light and locust:
Never stand still - always move.
Don't engage in fights with another light unless you're completely confident you will win (as for 1V, always flee: 1-Fleeeeeee).
Avoid staring other mechs in their eyes, their asses are prettier.

[Luminis]

Useless? No. Obsolete? Yes.

If you want something to fill your drop deck, you ought to upgrade to a heavier 'Mech. With 265 tons available to the IS, it shouldn't be much of an issue to free up enough tonnage to go up to a Commando at least.

If you want a 20 tonner for QP, play a Piranha. It can do what the LCT does but it can also kill stuff. Simple as that.

Edited by Luminis, 16 February 2018 - 02:02 PM.

[HGAK47]

Skirmish with it. Guerrilla warfare. Flank behind your enemy and carefully harass. You will get opportunity for kills and hell even sometimes you can zoom up in your enemies face and battle but thats not ideal.

Remember its a paper thin mech, its defense is speed and not being seen.

[Jackal Noble]

I smell an OP alt at play. Tsk tsk, you guys never give up. Admirable, but odd AF.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

Let's ignore that this shouldn't be case with regards to "Lore" and consider the actual ramifications of something like that. I'm not too sure about that actually creating an overall balance:

Lore would mean Clan machines were superior in every way, but that's not MWO. MGs should be equivalent- a ton of Clan MG gun equals a ton of IS MG gun. That it would actually mean IS MG boats doesn't bother me a whit.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Brain Cancer, on 16 February 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

Lore would mean Clan machines were superior in every way,

Well Lore not only "would" mean that but "does" exactly that - at least with regards to weight ... and ...

Brain Cancer, on 16 February 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

but that's not MWO.

... so does MWO. Thus it actually is MWO right now.

Brain Cancer, on 16 February 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

MGs should be equivalent- a ton of Clan MG gun equals a ton of IS MG gun.

So instead of responding to my comment that already said that we'll leave "Lore" aside and rather concentrate on the ramifications of your "should" demand you just reiterate your previous statement as if that was somehow a counter argument against "Lore" (which wasn't used as an argument).

Brain Cancer, on 16 February 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

That it would actually mean IS MG boats doesn't bother me a whit.

Well, I'd certainly expect some kind of reasoning behind your usage of "should". Now the easiest assumption for me is that this is supposedly aimed at "balance", or isn't it? If so, I'm kind of intrigued by the "logic" of such an "balancing attempt" that not only merely shifts the current disparity from Clan side to IS side by creating equally or even stronger IS machine gun boats but also buffs all buffs all IS mechs (of any weight class) against any Clan mech when dealing with "non-boats" that have "only" 1 or 2 ballistic slots that might be dedicated to machine guns.</p>
=> So far you failed at convincing me that IS mgs indeed should do double damage. ~shrug~

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 16 February 2018 - 03:21 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Not double damage. Normalize MG stats- a Clan MG has the same range, DPS, etc as an IS MG.

Then you simply double the IS MG's ROF.

Two Clan MGs fire once and deal the same damage as one IS MG for the same tonnage. Voila, IS lights can now do the same frickin' job Clan ones do- and Clan has a pile of chassis (MLX, ACH, PIR) that outdo IS ones right now.

This means everyone gets to have fun at the MG table. Heck, right now we can even have a Clan assault with 8B hardpoints if you really want to. And no hardpoint inflation needed.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 16 February 2018 - 03:59 PM.

[Officer Kyle]

JackalBeast, on 16 February 2018 - 02:19 PM, said:

I smell an OP alt at play. Tsk tsk, you guys never give up. Admirable, but odd AF.

I have no idea what your talking about. OP alt?

The6thMessenger, on 16 February 2018 - 04:43 AM, said:

Best variant actually, most energy hardpoint that caters to meta builds, has a single ballistic hardpoints for large ballistics to be paired with a lot of small lasers, has two ct hardpoints that you can zombie with it if you're that hard-core. And then the Police Lights and Siren.

Do yourself a favor and get one.

Okay, I bought myself a UM-K9. Why is this thing so freakin slow?! Lol, all the assault mechs are outrunning me.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Brain Cancer, on 16 February 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

Not double damage.

But you're asking for doubling IS machine gun damage ...

Brain Cancer, on 16 February 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

Then you simply double the IS MG's ROF.

... right there. Doubling RoF does exactly the same as doubling the damage value in terms of effective machine guns that fire at any given time. I even mentioned that in my first comment to you. The only "positive" aspect there would be that an increased RoF wouldn't also increase the amount of potential damage per ton of ammo.

Brain Cancer, on 16 February 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

Two Clan MGs fire once and deal the same damage as one IS MG for the same tonnage. Voila, IS lights can now do the same frickin' job Clan ones do- and Clan has a pile of chassis (MLX, ACH, PIR) that outdo IS ones right now.

And the result is still the frickin' same as I pointed out earlier: You currently have an asymetric system where 3 Clan chassis can "hyper boat" machine guns to a higher degree. But ever since the initial "hype" for all three of these mechs has died down you actually don't see them that often. Your desired change would merely turn the asymetry around by providing IS with a total of 4-7 different chassis that can rival ACH and MLX in terms of machine gun damage output and with more customization available. And then there's that sixth (or eighth depending on how you count) mech chassis that'll rival the PIR-1 in terms of damage output but is also jump capable and way more tankier.

=> You're still just shifting the perceived imbalance on the high end of "mg boating" towards IS.

Brain Cancer, on 16 February 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

This means everyone gets to have fun at the MG table.

And what you still fail to see is the imbalance your idea creates on the lower end of "mg not-boating": Every IS mech with just 2 machine guns would turn into a "minor machine gun boat" with 4 effective machine guns while their Clan counterparts with only 2 machine guns stay where they are.

Brain Cancer, on 16 February 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

Heck, right now we can even have a Clan assault with 8B hardpoints if you really want to. And no hardpoint inflation needed.

Strawman argumentation since I nowhere suggested that there should be a hardpoint inflation on IS side on certain mechs to equalize machine gun boating possibilities. Fact of the matter however is, that having one or more IS lights in the 30 to 35t range with "inflated" ballistic hardpoints would actually be less of a "balance" concern than what you're advocating here.

=> You still have not even remotely come close to convincing me that IS machine guns should get their damage capabilities effectively doubled - neither by hard double damage like you initially wanted nor by doubling the IS mg RoF.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 17 February 2018 - 05:24 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

[Spheroid]

Kyle you should really be posting in the New Player section of the forums assuming you are not a troll.

You bought a bad Locust, outfitted it poorly and your K-9 needs an engine upgrade.

[MrMadguy]

Snowbluff, on 16 February 2018 - 11:13 AM, said:

Monetary value shouldn't be a consideration in the strength of a mech. The only limiting factor in most matches is the number of players on each team. As such, each player should be considered equal in value regardless of weight class they play.

Let's normalize prices then. Why "No P2W" argument works, but "No paying for air" argument doesn't? Why not? If Locust should be as powerful, as my MadCat MKII - then why should I pay or grind 10x more to buy it? I don't see any logic here.

[YueFei]

MrMadguy, on 17 February 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

Let's normalize prices then. Why "No P2W" argument works, but "No paying for air" argument doesn't? Why not? If Locust should be as powerful, as my MadCat MKII - then why should I pay or grind 10x more to buy it? I don't see any logic here.

Because PGI themselves originally pitched the game that way, claiming that there'd be no tonnage-race, and that mechs of all weight classes would be equally important to winning.

You know, the same way that in Gridiron Football we have dudes with varying body types, instead of flooding the field with a formation of 11 guys that all weight 350+ pounds. Because they have a field that's 50+ yards wide and something called the Forward Pass, so that speed is desirable and necessary.

It's not unreasonable for PGI's customers to want what PGI originally advertised.

[Y E O N N E]

MrMadguy, on 17 February 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

Let's normalize prices then. Why "No P2W" argument works, but "No paying for air" argument doesn't? Why not? If Locust should be as powerful, as my MadCat MKII - then why should I pay or grind 10x more to buy it? I don't see any logic here.

Price doesn't factor in because price is non-recurring. You can't use a non-recurring cost to counter-balance a recurring benefit.

[Officer Kyle]

Spheroid, on 17 February 2018 - 10:15 AM, said:

Kyle you should really be posting in the New Player section of the forums assuming you are not a troll.

You bought a bad Locust, outfitted it poorly and your K-9 needs an engine upgrade.

You guys are really jumpy about trolls here huh?