718 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

And while forum trolls exchange rhetorical posturing, a 34 page thread on the subject has provided exactly 0 evidence of the original claim...

[Der Geisterbaer]

Imperius, on 18 March 2018 - 10:52 AM, said:

Do it?

I did already once ... but I guess twice won't do harm

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 06:13 AM, said:

Or if they do fire that many it’s for a short time.

Which was a direct response to

Samial, on 16 March 2018 - 05:44 AM, said:

Pretty much my ideas too firing more than 4 mgs incurs ghost heat or some such.. can still carry eight or more  but must fire them in groups of four

=> You totally were for nerfs not just on 12 mgs but at 4+ and from there you started your spiteful ramblings that if your beloved dual gauss dual er-ppc combo was reigned in the PIR-1 should share the same fate for "reasons".

Imperius, on 18 March 2018 - 10:52 AM, said:

I mean I could have typed something wrong on my touch phone.

Yeah ofc ... blame the phone and not your intellectual dishonesty.

Imperius, on 18 March 2018 - 10:52 AM, said:

Fairly confident I’ve constantly said we need Ghost Heat added after a certain amount of machine guns firing to balance things out.

And you're fairly wrong with with trusting your "confidence" or memory for that matter.

Imperius, on 18 March 2018 - 10:52 AM, said:

I know I have said 12mg is the problem many times over.

Oh yeah, you made that particular claim as well ... while admitting to not actually having any reasonable experience and just your "feely craft" derived from a Reddit post.

Imperius, on 18 March 2018 - 10:52 AM, said:

So yes please show me.

Ask and you shall receive ... but that won't stop you from trying to weasel yourself out of it again or making other intellectually dishonest claims.

[Imperius]

Sjorpha, on 18 March 2018 - 11:12 AM, said:

And while forum trolls exchange rhetorical posturing, a 34 page thread on the subject has provided exactly 0 evidence of the original claim...

What evidence has there ever been about any of the subjective nerfs that constantly come out of these threads?

LRM’s are op like 12MG...

I mean I’m discussing balance at Teir5

Der Geisterbaer, on 18 March 2018 - 11:15 AM, said:

I did already once ... but I guess twice won't do harm



Which was a direct response to



=> You totally were for nerfs not just on 12 mgs but at 4+ and from there you started your spiteful ramblings that if your beloved dual gauss dual er-ppc combo was reigned in the PIR-1 should share the same fate for "reasons".



Yeah ofc ... blame the phone and not your intellectual dishonesty.



And you're fairly wrong with with trusting your "confidence" or memory for that matter.



Oh yeah, you made that particular claim as well ... while admitting to not actually having any reasonable experience and just your "feely craft" derived from a Reddit post.



Ask and you shall receive ... but that won't stop you from trying to weasel yourself out of it again or making other intellectually dishonest claims.

Hmmm never said 4 got it.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Imperius, on 18 March 2018 - 11:17 AM, said:

Hmmm never said 4 got it.

Yeah right ... quoting someone else on 4 machine guns and then making that comment is your way of weasling yourself out ... Didn't I just predict you would do that?

[Imperius]

dario03, on 16 March 2018 - 04:37 AM, said:

Thats basically nerfing lights since you don't see other mechs boating MGs very much. Be like when they nerfed MGs years ago and it had almost no effect on most mechs but basically killed the Ember.

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 04:51 AM, said:

Nope boating of that many machine guns should incur ghost Heat. Just like my gauss er-ppc nerf. Because that wasn’t directed at anyone but assaults.

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 05:30 AM, said:

Not many mechs can use dual gauss dual er-ppc so I see no difference. That’s called balance man I’m sure they “will handle it just fine” as you clearly put it for the assaults and the engine decoupling plus the Ghost Heat to that particular weapon loadout that made me quit. I talked to Chris his reasoning was because only a few mechs could run that so it wasn’t fair. So that’s how I see the 12 machine guns.

Edit: I hate touch phones for talking on forums

Samial, on 16 March 2018 - 05:44 AM, said:

Pretty much my ideas too firing more than 4 mgs incurs ghost heat or some such.. can still carry eight or more but must fire them in groups of four

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 06:13 AM, said:

Or if they do fire that many it’s for a short time.

Anyone else here trying to protect their broken loadout?

That’s was the conversation in order. He said four I never specified a number where ghost Heat should start. Anything else?

That many as in 12. As I said In the post before it. 12 mg is the issue

The cap should be 6-8 then Ghost Heat starts. Since most light can carry about 6/8. If I had to pick a number to start at.

Edited by Imperius, 18 March 2018 - 11:37 AM.

[Imperius]

Der Geisterbaer, on 18 March 2018 - 11:27 AM, said:

Yeah right ... quoting someone else on 4 machine guns and then making that comment is your way of weasling yourself out ... Didn't I just predict you would do that?

Nope you just didn’t follow the conversation and clearly assumed someone’s else’s words were mine. You swore up and down I said 4 I was sure I’d didn’t and I didn’t ever say 4

Edited by Imperius, 18 March 2018 - 11:36 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Imperius, on 18 March 2018 - 11:34 AM, said:

Nope you just didn’t follow the conversation and clearly assumed someone’s else’s words were mine.

Nope: You quoted Samiel and his comments on 4+ mgs directly and made that exact comment I just gave. There's no "assumption" or "not following the conversation" on my behalf involved: You directly agreed with him right there and by that you didn't limit yourself to merely 12mgs as you claimed.

Try spinning it more ... it'll be just more entertainment for me.

[Sjorpha]

Imperius, on 18 March 2018 - 11:17 AM, said:

What evidence has there ever been about any of the subjective nerfs that constantly come out of these threads?

I'm not sure what threads or nerfs you're talking about, it's always more useful to talk about specific examples. This thread is about machine guns and the Piranha, the claim is that it is overpowered. So far that claim hasn't met it's burden of proof and can be dismissed until it does.

When something is actually overpowered, it fairly quickly produces lots of evidence as the game documents results and competitive play develops oppressive metagames around those overpowered things. For example the Kodiak 3 from the time of release up until the UAC10 Ghost heat nerf is probably the most clear case to date of a grossly overpowered mech. And it's PPFLD metabuild also dominated the World Championships that year. So there was a massive body of both statistical, contextual and peak sample evidence of it's power level. Whether the nerfs applied to adress that was well designed or of the appropriate scale is another issue, but the evidence backing the need for a response was not in short supply.

The Piranha so far hasn't produced anything of the sort, there is no statistical sign of dominance and most of the sample evidence are not topping out at the extremes that should be expected by something actually overpowered, in other words the best matches from Piranhas seem to respemble the best matches from most other mechs with damage scores topping out at around 1000-1300 and averaging in the 250-400 range. Pretty normal numbers mostly, as compared to release kodiak producing 2000+ damage samples. And it's been in the game long enough that we should start noticing some significant issues by now if it was actually very overpowered.

Now maybe it is actually overpowered, and the impact is yet to happen. Maybe people have yet to learn maxing it out? Maybe it's will dominate in certain modes like Solaris?

That's possible, but it actually has to happen before it's rational to call it overpowered.

Quote

LRM’s are op like 12MG...

I don't understand your point here, LRMs are very underpowered to the point of being almost completely absent in comp play and a really weak pick in all other modes. Machine guns when used on the mg boat lights are clearly quite strong, so mgs are much stronger than LRMs in the metagame, neither seem overpowered though.

You're not...actually claiming LRMs are overpowered are you?

Quote

I mean I’m discussing balance at Teir5

What does that even mean though?

The variance at tier 5 is rather extreme so it's very hard to discuss balance at that level, it's too chaotic. Now it's also not very relevant as not a lot of players are tier 5 and matches span across several tiers anyhow.

Edited by Sjorpha, 18 March 2018 - 11:51 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Imperius, on 18 March 2018 - 11:44 AM, said:

You can read it how you like.

That's the beauty of it, isn't it?

Imperius, on 18 March 2018 - 11:44 AM, said:

I wasn’t aware quoting someone meant you agreed unless you said “I agree” or something to that existent.

As I predicted: More attempts of "spin" and still lots of intellectual dishonesty.

Imperius, on 18 March 2018 - 11:44 AM, said:

Whatever, stop quoting me otherwise I’ll just say you’re agreeing with me.

That's the kind of intellectual dishonesty that was to be expected, right?

Thanks for giving me my entertainment yet another time.

[Imperius]

Sjorpha, on 18 March 2018 - 11:48 AM, said:

I'm not sure what threads or nerfs you're talking about, it's always more useful to talk about specific examples. This thread is about machine guns and the Piranha, the claim is that it is overpowered. So far that claim hasn't met it's burden of proof and can be dismissed until it does.

When something is actually overpowered, it fairly quickly produces lots of evidence as the game documents results and competitive play develops oppressive metagames around those overpowered things. For example the Kodiak 3 from the time of release up until the UAC10 Ghost heat nerf is probably the most clear case to date of a grossly overpowered mech. And it's PPFLD metabuild also dominated the World Championships that year. So there was a massive body of both statistical, contextual and peak sample evidence of it's power level. Whether the nerfs applied to adress that was well designed or of the appropriate scale is another issue, but the evidence backing the need for a response was not in short supply.

The Piranha so far hasn't produced anything of the sort, there is no statistical sign of dominance and most of the sample evidence are not topping out at the extremes that should be expected by something actually overpowered, in other words the best matches from Piranhas seem to respemble the best matches from most other mechs with damage scores topping out at around 1000-1300 and averaging in the 250-400 range. Pretty normal numbers mostly, as compared to release kodiak producing 2000+ damage samples. And it's been in the game long enough that we should start noticing some significant issues by now if it was actually very overpowered.

Now maybe it is actually overpowered, and the impact is yet to happen. Maybe people have yet to learn maxing it out? Maybe it's will dominate in certain modes like Solaris?

That's possible, but it actually has to happen before it's rational to call it overpowered.



I don't understand your point here, LRMs are very underpowered to the point of being almost completely absent in comp play and a really weak pick in all other modes. Machine guns when used on the mg boat lights are clearly quite strong, so mgs are much stronger than LRMs in the metagame, neither seem overpowered though.



What does that even mean though?

The variance at tier 5 is rather extreme so it's very hard to discuss balance at that level, it's too chaotic. Now it's also not very relevant as not a lot of players are tier 5 and matches span across several tiers anyhow.

When has this game been balanced at comp level? Evidence is that Paul said himself they balance for tier 5.

Do I agree with either? Hell no! I never use LRM’s!

Obviously 12MG is a problem for some since the thread exsists. So in the world of balancing at Tier 5 that is all that is needed. Chris and Paul can go verify the number of piranhas that use 12MG and form their judgment.

Your opinion was the Kodiac was imbalanced because it could produce those numbers.

Guess what?

I didn’t have a problem with Kodiacs either. Yet they still got nerfed.

So they didn’t get nerfed because they effected me but because Tier 5 was getting farmed by tier3’s most likely. Again we balance by potato. That is also why this game sucks.

Edited by Imperius, 18 March 2018 - 11:59 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Imperius, on 18 March 2018 - 11:58 AM, said:

When has this game been balanced at comp level? Evidence is that Paul said himself they balance for tier 5.

Do I agree with either? Hell no! I never use LRM’s!

Obviously 12MG is a problem for some since the thread exsists. So in the world of balancing at Tier 5 that is all that is needed. Chris and Paul can go verify the number of piranhas that use 12MG and form their judgment.

Your opinion was the Kodiac was imbalanced because it could produce those numbers.

Guess what?

I didn’t have a problem with Kodiacs either. Yet they still got nerfed.

So they didn’t get nerfed because they effected me but because Tier 5 was getting farmed by tier3’s most likely. Again we balance by potato. That is also why this game sucks.

Ok, so you yourself don't actually think machine guns, or the Piranha, are overpowered then? Well that certainly clears up some confusion, thanks.

You should probably have cleared that up earlier, as a big part of this thread seems to revolve around people reading you as defending the position that the Piranha is overpowered, and you could have avoided that by simply saying that you don't think it is. Many of your posts reads like you do, so it's fairly confising to be honest.

Paul said they balance LRMs specifically with a concern for the consequences at lower tiers because LRMs performs so vastly different at different skill brackets, that is a legitimate concern by the way as the experiance for new players is rather important. I wish LRMs could be less underpowered but I actually agree with Paul that a lurmageddon situation in tier 5-4 is a possible concern that needs to be considered carefully.

He didn't say they balance the whole game around tier 5, that is a misrepresentation of the interview. I think they are trying to balance across the whole spectrum, and the things they get wrong is more about them being quite bad at balancing games rather than balancing "for the wrong tiers".

Now most weapons don't have the skill based variance that LRMs have, their actual relative balance will be mostly consistent across the tiers and so there is really no large "balance by potato" problem for many weapons, lasers for example are easy to use across all skill levels. There is a problem in the sense that lower tiers produce more noisy data due to having more variance. There are of course some weapons with the opposite problem, they are hard to use so only show their actual power level in high tiers, such as gauss rifles and ppcs.

The Kodiak was imbalanced at release yes, there was a huge body of evidence for that. So you think it was balanced at release? Ok, that's fine but then you are no longer talking about balance in the normal game theoretical sense.

When was the game balanced at comp level? You'd have to confirm this with some comp players, but I've heard that there has actually been some good periods, the time immedeately before skill tree release and early 2016 both fairly good if I'm not mistaken? (I'm not active in comp though)

Edited by Sjorpha, 18 March 2018 - 12:35 PM.

[Imperius]

Sjorpha, on 18 March 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

Ok, so you yourself don't actually think machine guns, or the Piranha, are overpowered then? Well that certainly clears up some confusion, thanks.

You should probably have cleared that up earlier, as a big part of this thread seems to revolve around people reading you as defending the position that the Piranha is overpowered, and you could have avoided that by simply saying that you don't think it is. Many of your posts reads like you do, so it's fairly confising to be honest.

Paul said they balance LRMs specifically with a concern for the consequences at lower tiers because LRMs performs so vastly different at different skill brackets. He didn't say they balance the whole game around tier 5, that is a misrepresentation of the interview.

Now most weapons don't have the skill based variance that LRMs have, their actual relative balance will be mostly consistent across the tiers and so there is really no large "balance by potato" problem for many weapons, lasers for example are easy to use across all skill levels. There is a problem in the sense that lower tiers produce more noisy data due to having more variance. There are of course some weapons with the opposite problem, they are hard to use so only show their actual power level in high tiers, such as gauss rifles and ppcs.

The Kodiak was imbalanced at release yes, there was a huge body of evidence for that. So you think it was balanced at release. Ok, that's fine but then you are no longer talking about balance in the normal game theoretical sense.

Yup, these mechs and loadouts do not effect me, but I can see from a Tier 5 point of view 12MG's may need to be looked at.

I talked to Chris at MechCon. His reasoning for nerfing my preferred weapon load-out that I have used since the Dire Wolf was the fact that only clan mechs and certain ones at that could use that particular load-out. So by that reasoning I see 12mg's getting some form of a nerf.

They do not effect me. Again positioning, cover, and team support are OP. We don't factor those things into balance because if we did LRM's wouldn't be crap. Ghost Heat wouldn't have been linked on PPC / Gauss and this game might be more diverse.

I've said in the past the game needs to be balanced by the maps, but they cant build many good maps and they are too slow to implement them.

Edited by Imperius, 18 March 2018 - 12:33 PM.

[Rocket2Uranus]

Also I'm pretty sure that PGI purposely releases new light mechs with terrible hitboxes so they look OP.
Osiris used to be impossible to kill when it first dropped. Now it has been released for CB, its easy to kill.
Pirhana is impossible to hit. And they dish out way too much dmg without having to deal with heat like other light mechs.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Sjorpha, on 18 March 2018 - 11:48 AM, said:

I'm not sure what threads or nerfs you're talking about, it's always more useful to talk about specific examples. This thread is about machine guns and the Piranha, the claim is that it is overpowered. So far that claim hasn't met it's burden of proof and can be dismissed until it does.

When something is actually overpowered, it fairly quickly produces lots of evidence as the game documents results and competitive play develops oppressive metagames around those overpowered things. For example the Kodiak 3 from the time of release up until the UAC10 Ghost heat nerf is probably the most clear case to date of a grossly overpowered mech. And it's PPFLD metabuild also dominated the World Championships that year. So there was a massive body of both statistical, contextual and peak sample evidence of it's power level. Whether the nerfs applied to adress that was well designed or of the appropriate scale is another issue, but the evidence backing the need for a response was not in short supply.

The Piranha so far hasn't produced anything of the sort, there is no statistical sign of dominance and most of the sample evidence are not topping out at the extremes that should be expected by something actually overpowered, in other words the best matches from Piranhas seem to respemble the best matches from most other mechs with damage scores topping out at around 1000-1300 and averaging in the 250-400 range. Pretty normal numbers mostly, as compared to release kodiak producing 2000+ damage samples. And it's been in the game long enough that we should start noticing some significant issues by now if it was actually very overpowered.

Now maybe it is actually overpowered, and the impact is yet to happen. Maybe people have yet to learn maxing it out? Maybe it's will dominate in certain modes like Solaris?

That's possible, but it actually has to happen before it's rational to call it overpowered.

Where are you getting your numbers for Piranha performance?

I know this is anecdotal evidence and all, but from my experience if a PIR-1 doesn't just go full-on potato within the first minute of the game, or get unlucky with a streak-boat, it's going to really mess some dudes up.

And expecting massive damage numbers from the Piranha is unreasonable, given its primary armament has a pretty hard limit on damage since it can't carry a lot of ammo. The classic quad C-UAC10 Kodiak, on the other hand, has enough ammo to drill through an entire company's worth of front CTs.

And damage isn't the whole story. The way it instantly vaporizes any equipment in an exposed section isn't reflected in its damage stats.

[Krivvan]

Imperius, on 18 March 2018 - 09:40 AM, said:

We’re you in solo queue or group queue? Because I always play in group queue.

First half group queue, second half solo queue.

Imperius, on 18 March 2018 - 09:56 AM, said:

Oh I’m aware of how popular it was going to be and is. I can’t count how many times I was told here the Kodiac was way better.

The Kodiak used to be better, it just got worse. I'm not sure if the Kodiak nerf and Mad Cat Mk. 2 popularity ever actually intersected at all though.

Edited by Krivvan, 18 March 2018 - 07:43 PM.

[Krivvan]

Rocket2Uranus, on 18 March 2018 - 05:54 PM, said:

Osiris used to be impossible to kill when it first dropped. Now it has been released for CB, its easy to kill.

I don't believe the Osiris hitbox changed whatsoever since it released. In fact, I'm decently sure it didn't undergo any changes whatsoever since its release.

[Y E O N N E]

Krivvan, on 18 March 2018 - 07:41 PM, said:

The Kodiak used to be better, it just got worse. I'm not sure if the Kodiak nerf and Mad Cat Mk. 2 popularity ever actually intersected at all though.

No intersection. Kodiak nerfs happened way before the Civil War update and the Civil War update nerfed one of the two load-outs that the Kodiak was potent with (Gauss+PPC).

[Krivvan]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 March 2018 - 08:23 PM, said:

No intersection. Kodiak nerfs happened way before the Civil War update and the Civil War update nerfed one of the two load-outs that the Kodiak was potent with (Gauss+PPC).

Yeah, I was thinking it's possible that they heard of people saying the Kodiak was better when the Mad Cat MK. 2 was announced but before it was actually out is all.

[Y E O N N E]

Krivvan, on 18 March 2018 - 08:34 PM, said:

Yeah, I was thinking it's possible that they heard of people saying the Kodiak was better when the Mad Cat MK. 2 was announced but before it was actually out is all.

It's just Imperius willfully pulling the speculative conversations that took place back when the KDK-3 was king out of their context. He knows better, but he doesn't care.

[Imperius]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 March 2018 - 08:43 PM, said:

It's just Imperius willfully pulling the speculative conversations that took place back when the KDK-3 was king out of their context. He knows better, but he doesn't care.

Further back when it was Kodiak vs MK ii and some bads convinced some forumites the timeline was relevant to Russ’ twitter conversation with me about what mech people would most like to see and it wasn’t.

Humanoid mechs always suffer compared to chicken walkers. I never foresaw that engine decoupling would be the final nail though.

All conversations here are pretty much speculation.