718 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Imperius, on 19 March 2018 - 09:49 AM, said:

I was telling the person who asked me to provide stats on my opinion of how 12MG is overpowered. To provide those stats for his.

You for some reason responded to a post that wasn't even directed at you.

Yet, I would say you would have to actually play to form the observation you made.

Ahem! I don't actually have to "play" to track the size of the solo QP queue at any given time. I can also track Light usage against all other classes via the leaderboards.

You might think the above is in the realm of "rocket science", but I assure you it's not.

Der Geisterbaer, on 19 March 2018 - 11:45 AM, said:

And you're back to being the usual hypocrite ... ~laughs~
Weren't your initial comments made purely from "feely craft" point of view? With no actual game experience since like "forever"? And now that you've made like 20(?) games you're trying to call out others on not having made own experiences?

Oh you certainly don't pass on any chance to provide me with entertainment.

Edited by Mystere, 19 March 2018 - 12:44 PM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Imperius, on 19 March 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

Look here comes the guy that doesn't read the conversation and tries to put words in peoples mouths.

How entertaining ... ~smile~

Imperius, on 19 March 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

Now what are you going to say I said?

Let's see ... So far we have established that

... you are in this discussion despite your own claim that none of the "issues" at hand are actually yours.

... your motivation for calling for nerfs is largely based on your grudge against Chris for having nerfed your preferred build

... your knowledge on the Piranha was and still is largely based on a Reddit post

... you originally had zero personal experience with Piranhas in the game because you actually hadn't played the game for quite some time

... you still haven't got reasonably more experience but now try to use inexperience as an argument against others

... you like to support certain position with positive and supportive commentary that builds on the ideas expressed in that original position but when confronted with such things you put your fingers in your ears and start "I didn't say anything the like".

Imperius, on 19 March 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

Like a get bro you don't want your crutch balanced.

~giggles~ Yeah ... it must totally be that

Imperius, on 19 March 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

Make sure you quote and read the whole thing next time.

I did both ... and the fun that came with it ist stil exhilarating. I like my hypocrites and liars well feed ...

[Sjorpha]

Imperius, on 19 March 2018 - 08:59 AM, said:

Where is your stats and hard facts that back up this claim?

The burden of proof is on the positive claim, in this case the claim that the Piranha is overpowered. Pointing to a lack of evidence, or to refute the validity of alleged evidence, is enough to dismiss a positive claim.

Shifting the burden of proof, requesting that the sceptic proves a negative, is a fallacy, or a dishonest rhetorical trick if done intentionallu, because proving a negative is logically impossible.

My position is simply that no substantial evidence for the Piranha being overpowered has been presented, and so there is no reason to accept that it is at this time. The lack of such evidence suggests that it isn't, which is the negative default position (null hypothesis) vis a vis the claim that it is.

You can examplify this principle pretty easily. If I claim that there are unicorns living on new zealand, it is rational of you to dismiss that claim as false unless I present convincing eveidence. But it isn't rational of me to demand that you disprove the existence of unicorns, in fact it is logically impossible to do so.

[Imperius]

Sjorpha, on 19 March 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

The burden of proof is on the positive claim, in this case the claim that the Piranha is overpowered. Pointing to a lack of evidence, or to refute the validity of alleged evidence, is enough to dismiss a positive claim.

Shifting the burden of proof, requesting that the sceptic proves a negative, is a fallacy, or a dishonest rhetorical trick if done intentionallu, because proving a negative is logically impossible.

My position is simply that no substantial evidence for the Piranha being overpowered has been presented, and so there is no reason to accept that it is at this time. The lack of such evidence suggests that it isn't, which is the negative default position (null hypothesis) vis a vis the claim that it is.

You can examplify this principle pretty easily. If I claim that there are unicorns living on new zealand, it is rational of you to dismiss that claim as false unless I present convincing eveidence. But it isn't rational of me to demand that you disprove the existence of unicorns, in fact it is logically impossible to do so.

The proof is that this is the only mech that can use 12MG with no heat penalties. NO OTHER MECH IN THE GAME CAN DO THAT.

[YueFei]

Imperius, on 19 March 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

The proof is that this is the only mech that can use 12MG with no heat penalties. NO OTHER MECH IN THE GAME CAN DO THAT.

That's not a proper proof, as it is based on the unproven assumption that all Light mechs that mount less than 12 MGs (and are of similar maneuverability, profile, and durability as the Piranha) are currently balanced, and therefore the Piranha is overpowered.

Given that Light mechs are actually generally underpowered, I can see how it comes as a shock when a Light mech can actually be quite effective. Does it bruise your ego to lose to a smaller mech that much? Guess what, PGI's original pitch for this game promised to make all weight classes equally important.

I would like to see PGI buff Lights more in order to truly fufill that promise.

You wanna accuse me of leaning on my crutch, too? 100% Medium mech pilot here.

[chucklesMuch]

How is this thread not in k-town? I'm sure more constructive threads have been sent down long before where this has landed...

[DerHuhnTeufel]

Actually it's just the only mech that can use 12 MGs.

But that doesn't make it OP. I've been playing a lot more matches than most people posting in this thread, and I don't see many of them. Most games none, no game with more than 2 in almost a month. Their paper thin armor and structure means they die to just about anything in 2 volleys tops, even other lights. The only thing they're good at is punishing a combination of a lack of aim and a lack of situational awareness faster than other light mechs. I've cored my share of assaults using a TDK with 4 small pulse lasers, but I don't think you're going to find anyone claiming that's too powerful.

[Sjorpha]

Imperius, on 19 March 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

The proof is that this is the only mech that can use 12MG with no heat penalties. NO OTHER MECH IN THE GAME CAN DO THAT.

There are a quite a few chassis with unique building options in this game, for example the Nova is the only mech that can run 12 arm mounted lasers, the Ultraviolent is the only mech that can mount 8UAC2/AC2/LB2, the BLR is the only mech with 6 cockpit height torso energy hardpoints and so on.

There is nothing in itself about exclusive access to a specific loadout that necessarily makes a mech overpowered.

In order to prove that a mech is overpowered you have to provide evidence that the mech is performing above whatever threshold you consider to be overpowered, or that it performs significantly better than all competing options in the context you're claiming it overperforms in.

I'm also genuinely confused what your actual position is, a few posts back you told me that you don't think the Piranha is overpowered, but now you seem to think it is and are referring to it as a crutch and so on. It's very hard to discuss this if you don't at the very least clarify what your opinion on the subject is.

[VitriolicViolet]

Considering the high standard of quality and evidence being used here i counter anecdotally that lights and MGs are entirely fine.

Last night for example i took my Highlander by myself below the center on HPG and ran into a Locust, Piranha and Panther. I wiped the floor with both the locust and Piranha, both had MGs, and the panther got away missing an arm. I was using AC20, SNPPC and 2 MRM 20s.


i see too many assaults who dont use arm weapons, spin like turrets, move to slowly, position poorly, ignore the map and base the whole build on cracking fatties and then wonder why they lose to lights. Frankly hunting lights in a Highlander is fun, they disintegrate as long as you can aim and lead them. i mostly build my assaults to have a chance at taking out lights, but when i use the ones that are not designed at all with lights in mind and get beaten by them thats on me,nothing to do with 'OPness'

DerHuhnTeufel, on 19 March 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

The only thing they're good at is punishing a combination of a lack of aim and a lack of situational awareness faster than other light mechs. I've cored my share of assaults using a TDK with 4 small pulse lasers, but I don't think you're going to find anyone claiming that's too powerful.

I agree, its simply exacerbating bad play. As an assault if you **** up against say a Raven or even Wolfhound you get more lenience than against a Piranha or Locust. The same applies to mechs trying to take out the Anni vs the Atlas, **** up against an Atlas and you generally get another go, not so much the Anni, it punishes mistakes

[Imperius]

Sjorpha, on 19 March 2018 - 01:42 PM, said:

There are a quite a few chassis with unique building options in this game, for example the Nova is the only mech that can run 12 arm mounted lasers, the Ultraviolent is the only mech that can mount 8UAC2/AC2/LB2, the BLR is the only mech with 6 cockpit height torso energy hardpoints and so on.

There is nothing in itself about exclusive access to a specific loadout that necessarily makes a mech overpowered.

In order to prove that a mech is overpowered you have to provide evidence that the mech is performing above whatever threshold you consider to be overpowered, or that it performs significantly better than all competing options in the context you're claiming it overperforms in.

I'm also genuinely confused what your actual position is, a few posts back you told me that you don't think the Piranha is overpowered, but now you seem to think it is and are referring to it as a crutch and so on. It's very hard to discuss this if you don't at the very least clarify what your opinion on the subject is.

12MG’s needs ghost Heat added after x amount of MG’s! (the amount of MG’s that’s for Chris to decide.)

I already told you 2x Gauss 2x ER-PPC was nerfed because so few mechs could equip that and according to Chis that wasn’t fair. I expect the same to happen here.

[Imperius]

DerHuhnTeufel, on 19 March 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

Actually it's just the only mech that can use 12 MGs.

But that doesn't make it OP. I've been playing a lot more matches than most people posting in this thread, and I don't see many of them. Most games none, no game with more than 2 in almost a month. Their paper thin armor and structure means they die to just about anything in 2 volleys tops, even other lights. The only thing they're good at is punishing a combination of a lack of aim and a lack of situational awareness faster than other light mechs. I've cored my share of assaults using a TDK with 4 small pulse lasers, but I don't think you're going to find anyone claiming that's too powerful.

That’s ok I hardly saw 2 gauss 2 er-ppc Dire Wolf’s and got hit with back to back nerfs because edge cases. I expect that to happen here too.

0 heat weapon is just “so unbalanced” and it does a lot more DPS than my build ever could. Ammo issues well you can blame that in lack of balancing properly when going to 12v12.

Edited by Imperius, 19 March 2018 - 02:48 PM.

[cougurt]

Imperius, on 19 March 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

12MG’s needs ghost Heat added after x amount of MG’s! (the amount of MG’s that’s for Chris to decide.)

I already told you 2x Gauss 2x ER-PPC was nerfed because so few mechs could equip that and according to Chis that wasn’t fair. I expect the same to happen here.

so if i understand this correctly, you're saying that MG boating should be nerfed for no other reason than to be consistent with previous idiotic balancing decisions?

[Darian DelFord]

Imperius, on 19 March 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

12MG’s needs ghost Heat added after x amount of MG’s! (the amount of MG’s that’s for Chris to decide.)

I already told you 2x Gauss 2x ER-PPC was nerfed because so few mechs could equip that and according to Chis that wasn’t fair. I expect the same to happen here.

Actually quite a few mechs could tote that particular loadout. A few would imply 3, after a couple that is. However I takes more than 2 hands for me to count the chasis that can actually support that build. Hell a 35 ton mech, can tote 2 PPC's.


I suggest you go to the drawing board. The Whale is NOT why that loadout was was desynced from each other.

What I find intriguing is all you have to do is space the shots a half a second away from each other and you can still do 50 points of damage to a single location.

So you complaining that your 50 pinpoint alpha can not be perfectly placed anymore? While with skill it actually can be?

Imperius, on 19 March 2018 - 02:47 PM, said:

That’s ok I hardly saw 2 gauss 2 er-ppc Dire Wolf’s and got hit with back to back nerfs because edge cases. I expect that to happen here too.

0 heat weapon is just “so unbalanced” and it does a lot more DPS than my build ever could. Ammo issues well you can blame that in lack of balancing properly when going to 12v12.

Ummm the whale is NOT the reason that combo was nerfed. And you want to know why no one in this thread is taking you seriously.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 19 March 2018 - 03:38 PM.

[Sjorpha]

Imperius, on 19 March 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

12MG’s needs ghost Heat added after x amount of MG’s! (the amount of MG’s that’s for Chris to decide.)

It only needs a nerf if it's too good, which is exactly what has not yet been demonstrated, hence the discussion.

You can't appeal to your conclusion as an argument for itself, that is just circular reasoning.

Quote

I already told you 2x Gauss 2x ER-PPC was nerfed because so few mechs could equip that and according to Chis that wasn’t fair. I expect the same to happen here.

This is the official motivation for linking Gauss and PPC heat scale:

Quote

For some time now, Gauss/PPC combinations have skewed much higher than nearly every other weapon combination when it came to pure pinpoint damage and kill potential. As a result, we've had to balance all Gauss and PPC weaponry changes around that combination, rather than what was best for the weapons individually. This was a mentality we carried with us into the New Tech PTS testing, attempting to preserve the weapon combo. That testing showed the various Gauss/PPC combinations provided with the release of new tech reliably outperformed nearly everything else on the PTS; when taken outside the combinations however, the individual weapons vastly under-performed from where we wanted them to be.
As a result, and with the current behavior of the combinations prior to the release of new tech also in mind, we have re-evaluated our stance on the combinations. This change will link Gauss and PPC weaponry together for the purpose of scaling Heat penalties. This will allow us to better balance the individual weapons as needed in the future, both within the existing lineup of weaponry, and with the new weapon types introduced in this patch.

As you can see no mention of unfair loadout disparity being part of the motivation here, which wouldn't make sense anyways since so many mechs can mount gauss + PPC combos. Rather the motivation is that they think the combo was too powerful and they want to free up design space to buff the PPC family without breaking balance.

[Darian DelFord]

Sjorpha, on 19 March 2018 - 03:37 PM, said:

It only needs a nerf if it's too good, which is exactly what has not yet been demonstrated, hence the discussion.

You can't appeal to your conclusion as an argument for itself, that is just circular reasoning.



This is the official motivation for linking Gauss and PPC heat scale:


As you can see no mention of unfair loadout disparity being part of the motivation here, which wouldn't make sense anyways since so many mechs can mount gauss + PPC combos. Rather the motivation is that they think the combo was too powerful and they want to free up design space to buff the PPC family without breaking balance.

He will still try to say that they nerfed the combo because of the Whale. He is incapable of realizing the whale is only one of MANY that boat that and was not responsible for the reduction

[The GaussFather]

So Exhibit A, courtesy of Rusty Bolts... would have quoted you but don't know how to do that between threads... his is called "Piranha Fun"... don't see any leg humping tactics so I would call them clean kills. But darn that thing has some firepower for 20 tons.

Edited by The GaussFather, 19 March 2018 - 04:58 PM.

[Mystere]

Imperius, on 19 March 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

The proof is that this is the only mech that can use 12MG with no heat penalties. NO OTHER MECH IN THE GAME CAN DO THAT.

Proof? LOL LOL LOL!

That's almost The Donald kind of logic you've got there.

[DerHuhnTeufel]

Imperius, on 19 March 2018 - 02:47 PM, said:

That’s ok I hardly saw 2 gauss 2 er-ppc Dire Wolf’s and got hit with back to back nerfs because edge cases. I expect that to happen here too.

0 heat weapon is just “so unbalanced” and it does a lot more DPS than my build ever could. Ammo issues well you can blame that in lack of balancing properly when going to 12v12.

First, almost every assault in the game could outfit 2x ERPPC 2x Gauss, and those were nerfed because 60 points of pinpoint damage with no burn time is ridiculous. It was basically the defacto build for everything. At least with dual heavy gauss only the heaviest of the assaults can do it and they sacrifice quite a bit to do so.

Secondly, MGs are balanced both by their extreme range requirements and the relative weakness of the mechs that can make effective use of them. As others have said, piranhas are a glass cannon. If anyone on your team has decent aim and is paying attention, piranhas aren't a threat. Because they have to get within 100m to get that full dps, and they have to get within about 50m if they don't want it spread out across the entire mech.

In short, git gud. Work on your aim and situational awareness.

The GaussFather, on 19 March 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

So Exhibit A, courtesy of Rusty Bolts... would have quoted you but don't know how to do that between threads... his is called "Piranha Fun"... don't see any leg humping tactics so I would call them clean kills. But darn that thing has some firepower for 20 tons.

You notice virtually every kill he makes is with the lasers against a mech with a cherry red engine?

[Darian DelFord]

The GaussFather, on 19 March 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

So Exhibit A, courtesy of Rusty Bolts... would have quoted you but don't know how to do that between threads... his is called "Piranha Fun"... don't see any leg humping tactics so I would call them clean kills. But darn that thing has some firepower for 20 tons.

Come one guys how about some actual proof. These are fights from all kinds of different matches patched together into one video. I did not even see more than 1 kill on the same map. I can put together the same kind of video showing the Jenner K as the OMGOP mech of the century.

You guys and these videos. If you really want us to think the mech is OP.... then provide something that at least shows us tanking 4 assault mechs at one time while killing them all.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 19 March 2018 - 05:14 PM.

[Imperius]

cougurt, on 19 March 2018 - 03:19 PM, said:

so if i understand this correctly, you're saying that MG boating should be nerfed for no other reason than to be consistent with previous idiotic balancing decisions?

Correct