106 replies to this topic

[Dr Cara Carcass]

Teer Kerensky, on 21 March 2018 - 11:49 PM, said:

Everything you say is incorrect. Your overall stats indicate you are much better player and you average XP with assults is quite more than quoted 1100 XP.

Do you even realise this? You can't take a tiny amount of unlucky games to prove anything. It's the same as I would take my Ebon Jag prime stats, 21 games total of 35,597 XP. It means nothing! Plus the W/L rate is whopping 0.43 lol, I think it has one UAC20 and either two UAC10 or two UAC5.

Dude my overall games over all mechs and about 7k games that were recorded are les than 2 nodes....... Get that? I have made 40 games now trying to level a mech by hand so to speak..... i cannot get 2 nodes average.... never will.... Even on mechs where i average a 4.0 kd with a win rate of over 3, i on average get a tiny fraction less than 2.

Edited by Cara Carcass, 22 March 2018 - 04:00 AM.

[Moadebe]

Let's go into a little history lesson via numbers shall we? Comparing the old system via the new system.
Old module system basic & elite efficiencies on one chassis the XP needed = 35,750
Times 3 since you MUST meet these requirements on 3 different chassis of the same mech to master out one chassis alone = 107,250 XP

Finally add 21,500 xp on one chassis (the one you REALLY want to have and skill up) for the final Master Efficiencies (extra module slot)

Grand total for ONE mech chassis = 128,750 XP (and this is mech XP)

Let’s take a look at some of the modules themselves (I will be looking at just a few of them…not all of them) *Note: All XP values are in GXP (or General XP) which accumulates at a MUCH slower rate than mech XP. Yes you can convert mech XP over to GXP but that costs MC and is a paywall so we are not considering that.

Seismic Sensor: to unlock = 7,500 GXP > which leads to Advanced Seismic Sensor = 10,000 GXP to unlock (17,500 GXP to unlock total.) Now once it is unlocked it is unlocked forever across ALL mechs. (Great…that itself is a good thing about modules with it being a permanent unlock across all mechs.) Then you have to buy it: 6,000,000 C-Bills for both the Seismic Sensor module and the Advanced version (You just have to buy one or the other…not both. However, most people will not wait for the advanced sensor since they would like to benefit now from it.) Regardless of that, if you want to put Seismic Sensor on one mech it is 6M C-Bills. However, you only have to buy one Advanced Seismic Sensor and you can move it from mech to mech to save C-Bills. This was a good thing, but a pain in the behind if you have several mechs.

This is not including the weapon modules which once again cost GXP and C-Bills to deal with. This also had the same work around in that you just had to buy one if you wanted to play “shift the module.”

Now, the hidden costs…you MUST buy two additional mechs aside from the mech you truly want. Lets start things off with the cheapest mech in the game.

Locust (light mech) = the three cheapest variants (LCT-1V, LCT-1M, LCT-1E) equals 4,365,738 C-Bills. (This is with the cheapest variants and not a representation of whether these mechs are actually played or not.)

4.3m C-Bills to skill out the Locust at least. Not bad.

And now the most expensive, the assaults.

Executioner (assault mech) = the three cheapest variants (EXE-D, EXE-PRIME, EXE-A) equals 53,104,901 C-Bills. (This is with the cheapest variants and not a representation of whether these mechs are actually played or not.)

53.1m C-Bills to skill out ONE Executioner at LEAST…no thank you.

ALL of this and we are not including a very key factor amidst all of this… a paywall.

To fully skill out ONE mech you MUST buy 2 other mechs. Which means you MUST buy mechbays to hold said mechs. (There is a work around which I will touch on shortly.) So add the following…. 600MC.

I am going to go to extremes and say you have the MC and no mechbays for your new mech you are about to purchase that you have been eyeing for the past 2 months… add a grand total of 900MC (300MC for the mech you actually want and 600MC for the two you don’t actually want.) If you want to split hairs then say you wait for a mechbay sale… 450MC for all 3 mechbays. Reduced by half but still a PAYWALL.

*Note none of this is considering the faction play reputation rewards of mechbays, or selling mechs to “make room” for another mech. This is taking into consideration that a player is brand new and wishes to keep everything that they grinded for. Whether other players sold mechs to open up mechbays is a personal opinion and choice. Eventually, that person would still run out of mechbays regardless of getting all the FP reputation mechbays and selling mechs they don’t use. There is a ceiling here. I am merely making a point you NEEDED to have two EXTRA bays to skill up one mech.

To fully skill out the cheapest locust you HAD to spend at least 128,750 EXP, 4,365,738 C-Bills (without purchase of modules…much more with purchase) and have at least 3 mechbays open (or cost you 900MC or less depending.)

To fully skill out the Executioner you HAD to spend at LEAST 128,750 EXP, 53,104,901 C-Bills (without purchase of modules…much more with purchase) and have at least 3 mechbays open (or cost you 900MC or less depending.)

Current skill tree to completely skill out one mech with 91 skill points costs = 72,800 EXP and 4,095,000 C-Bills. This excludes adding any extra nodes or re-skilling the mech (which that re-skill cost will be gone soon.) You can use either mech EXP or General EXP to accomplish this in any way you see fit.

The cost to skill (91 skill points) out the cheapest mech in the game:
Locust: (LCT-1V) 72,800 EXP, 5,483,242 C-Bills (with mech purchase), and 300MC (if no current mechbay open…otherwise 0MC)

The cost to skill (91 skill points) out the most expensive mech in the game:
Executioner: (EXE-E) 72,800 EXP, 22,798,317 C-Bills (with mech purchase), and 300MC (if no current mechbay open…otherwise 0MC)

So while it might be most expensive to fully skill out the cheapest light mech with the current skill tree. The cost goes WAY down for anything higher.

While with the new skill tree you do not "feel" the impact of the nodes because it is a gradual increase (much like aging) ... the effects are real. If you want to feel the "impact" of the skill tree then save up the necessary XP and then put it all in at once at the end.

Once again...I am NOT saying the skill tree is perfect. A way to save certain skill tree formats would be great. Perhaps even a way to click a node towards the bottom and have it select all the nodes in between the top and bottom would be nice. The fact remains though. The skill tree is cheaper, less time consuming, and less "grindy" than the old system period.

[Phoolan Devi]

justcallme A S H, on 21 March 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

No, I'm not. You're forgetting to respec a mech, which balances that out. You ain't phoolan me with this silly round in a circle argument.

You change a mech loadout from say balliastic to SRM, you are now unlocking even more nodes. Everyone goes off the '91' nodes. Fact is most mechs have 100-120 nodes unlocked, hell some of mine have more than that unlocked. A further grind if 20% at least. Again further adding time well over and above old system.

Defend it all you want, the maze did nothing good for MWO the way it was implemented.

And under the old system you had to even get a new module for 3,750 gxp when you just changed a ac10 to an ac5. You do not need to respec now, when you stay in the same weapon group. Before you had to get a module for each weapon.....!

Edited by Phoolan Devi, 22 March 2018 - 11:21 AM.

[Phoolan Devi]

KodiakGW, on 21 March 2018 - 12:41 PM, said:

Need proof? Here is a link to a prior discussion about the Skill Web. And I use the word "web" instead of "maze" so somebody who has the IQ of a pickle won't think I don't understand it.

https://mwomercs.com...ng/page__st__40

Check my post about my the alt account I made to run with the six paying customers I got to join the game, who left because of the Skill Web. Notice my screen shot of the refund ledger - 15000 GXP for Cool Shot 9x9. Now here is Jarl's list for that alt.

https://leaderboard....h?u=sixdemonbag

Never played more than 75 games with it. So, 15000 GXP in 75 games? Ummm..no.

I didn't claim it isn't in there now, I just said I didn't get it when I created my alt in Feb/March 2017. Nothing more, nothing less. And that coolshot looks more like a benefit of a loot bag to me.

Edited by Phoolan Devi, 22 March 2018 - 04:26 AM.

[w4ldO]

just because the system back then was worse doesn't mean that the system today is much better


why do i have to be a liability to my team when i pilot a new, unskilled mech?
seasoned players have their general SP to fully skill newly released ones.

- remove XP from the game, let players buy SP with cbills


just think about it, it's a win-win situation

current system: player buys mech, player plays mech, player notices mech doesn't work for him after putting in 50 skillpoints - creates server load and cbill overhead
proposed system: player buys mech, player skills out new mech, player notices mech doesn't work for him, player buys the next mech - no server load, enormous cbill sink

Edited by w4ldO, 22 March 2018 - 04:43 AM.

[vonJerg]

@w4ld0: server load is actually a good thing, as you are helping create games for others. If you play less, if ppl play less, faster the rate at which everyone will leave the game altogether due to wait times increase.

[w4ldO]

that's true. and i could have elaborated on that.

server load with fully skilled mechs would be a good thing in my eyes. when players enjoy a mech they are going to play it no matter what. the fun should be in the game, not in the path to a fully skilled mech.

piloting a new mech i feel so awkward. i create server load just to skill it, when the system could be better, could put everyone on the same page. and games where my team is at an disadvantage already because i brough a fresh one make me sad.

[justcallme A S H]

Moadebe, on 22 March 2018 - 03:59 AM, said:

So while it might be most expensive to fully skill out the cheapest light mech with the current skill tree. The cost goes WAY down for anything higher.

One glaring issue - XP earnings per match were significantly lowered when Skill Maze came out.

I remember having 10,000+ XP games all the time and getting a "basic" on a mech in 1-2 games and elite'd in under 10. Not anymore though, 5,000XP games are a rare occurrence now by comparison.

So while it cost more XP you were getting 3-4x more XP per match, actually I have a feeling it might even be more 5-6x even. I can't remember seeing it noted down in patch notes what the difference actually was, but there was a change to the XP system.

Phoolan Devi, on 22 March 2018 - 04:18 AM, said:

And under thebold system you had to even get a new module for 3,750 gxp when you just changed a ac10 to an ac5.

You do not need to respec now, when you stay in the same weapon group. Before you had to get a module for each weapon.....!

Yeah and once it was unlocked. It was unlocked, forever. You never needed to respec anything.

You just changed loadout and a module to suit (although back then Seismic/Derp was more common and rarely swapped) and off you went.

And wut? Don't need to respec? If you change from Ballistic to Missiles to Lasers you need to respec. So you end up unlocking a potential 30+ extra nodes throughout the maze, said that a number of times now.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 22 March 2018 - 05:54 AM.

[Dr Cara Carcass]

justcallme A S H, on 22 March 2018 - 05:53 AM, said:

One glaring issue - XP earnings per match were significantly lowered when Skill Maze came out.

I remember having 10,000+ XP games all the time and getting a "basic" on a mech in 1-2 games and elite'd in under 10. Not anymore though, 5,000XP games are a rare occurrence now by comparison.

So while it cost more XP you were getting 3-4x more XP per match, actually I have a feeling it might even be more 5-6x even. I can't remember seeing it noted down in patch notes what the difference actually was, but there was a change to the XP system.



Yeah and once it was unlocked. It was unlocked, forever. You never needed to respec anything.

You just changed loadout and a module to suit (although back then Seismic/Derp was more common and rarely swapped) and off you went.

And wut? Don't need to respec? If you change from Ballistic to Missiles to Lasers you need to respec. So you end up unlocking a potential 30+ extra nodes throughout the maze, said that a number of times now.

Exactly that! Regardles of the numbers the amout of games i need to master 1 Mech now is longer than what it was for 3 mechs. I was able to finish 3 basics in one evening. Sometimes when the night was good and i had good games, the one variant i wanted was elited after one evening. Now i have 18 Skill nodes of 91, after the same time.

[Moadebe]

All of yall are still browsing over the main issue of the rule of 3. Which inflated the cost horribly. The old system was never a solid system, and it made this game more grindy than it is today. Regardless of whether or not you respec a mech and then spent more XP to say open missile nodes over AC nodes. It STILL comes out cheaper now than then for a new player to be introduced to the game and get somewhere.

Back then a new player would get their cadet bonuses ... save it ALLLL up for the mech they truly wanted. FINALLY get it. All excited they start playing their shiny new mech. They start skilling it out and spending XP on it. Then BOOM...hit a brick wall. They have the mech they wanted to play with. Now they have to grind out more C-bills just to buy two more mechs they dont want and THEN level them....

Face it. The old system is steeped in nostalgia for many of you, but guess what. It was a terrible system. The only people who really benefited from it were the people who put a TON of time into the game.

At least this way someone can pick it up and start making progress immediately on things they WANT to make progress on. Period.

[justcallme A S H]

So totally ignored the XP changes which, essentially, makes half of that thesis you posted kinda... pointless .

I don't think anyone has said the old system was perfect. It had flaws. Just like the maze does... The maze just has more flaws and the big one that people still try to pretend doesn't exist... It takes longer if you want more than one chassis of any mech variant. I could Master 3 mechs in the time it takes me to skill 2 now, less actually. This is an increase in time, a massive one.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 22 March 2018 - 02:12 PM.

[Moadebe]

Even with the XP gain changes it doesn't change a thing. So you got about 10k xp in the old system on avg. Congrats. The people just starting out would RARELY reach that and even avg players would rarely reach that. Your argument is still flawed because you are still ignoring the c-bill cost of things.

Seriously, the XP cost of things now compared to then is only one drop in the bucket. The xp gain per match might have changed but the c-bills have not. That cost alone should tell you its better now than then.

Before you come back with "c-bills were never an issue for me." Perhaps not. For you. Many casual players couldn't keep up with it due to the exorbitant cost of simply FINALLY getting the mech they want...or the module they wanted...

"You only have to buy one module and then move it from mech to mech..." That is honestly a game on the system. An annoying, potentially time consuming, irritating game on the system.

And with your "logic" you keep saying "well I can level 3 mechs faster than it takes to level 3 now." So you are a completionist. Nothing wrong with that. At all. However, be honest with yourself, and put yourself in the shoes of the "average" player. How often do you play those mechs that you work so hard to completely skill up back then? How about now? Do you have a low amount of mechs that you play all the time? Say 30 to 70? A large amount? Say 125 - 200 mechs? Can you honestly say you play ALL those mechs ALL the time?

"No I don't, but when I wanna play em they will be skilled already." Valid...but still a bad argument in the scheme of things between the old and new systems. This isn't about skilling out 300+ mechs all at once. This whole system is about allowing the player the freedom to pick a mech and customize it the way THEY want at a fraction of the price. Which is what the old system was TERRIBLE at with its forcing someone to buy 3 total mechs, choose modules with an either/or scenario, and forcing people to grind on mechs they really didn't want to play in the first place.

Once again. The skill tree is NOT perfect. It does NOT need to be easier in regards to quicker node unlocks. It needs fine tuning, ability to save "templates," and faster node selection.

It WAS a step in the right direction though.

[Bud Crue]

Moadebe, on 22 March 2018 - 02:45 PM, said:

Even with the XP gain changes it doesn't change a thing. So you got about 10k xp in the old system on avg. Congrats. The people just starting out would RARELY reach that and even avg players would rarely reach that. Your argument is still flawed because you are still ignoring the c-bill cost of things.

Seriously, the XP cost of things now compared to then is only one drop in the bucket. The xp gain per match might have changed but the c-bills have not. That cost alone should tell you its better now than then.

When this has come up before I often cite to the following images as exemplars of what was, and what is today.

Here is one very good but not crazily so match from late 2015:


Nearly 20K XP. 350K cbills Premium time running.

Here is a more recent match post skills tree:


7K XP -almost a third less- for a similar performance. But admittedly a 100K more c-bills. 100K cbills is certainly nothing to sniff at, but still, lt there be no mistake that a 1/3 of the XP is a far bigger deal to the perception that the grind is now worse than it used to be.

As mediocre player I can tell you that it is not just the perception of the grind being worse now. It is a reality. That third less XP is not some sort of conspiracy or my trying to selectively cherry pick a bad match (there can be no question that those are both great matches for some one of my mediocre skill), rather that is the reality of the grind, and now it is far tougher and longer than it was before, where in a weekend f casual play I could master 3 mechs. Now it takes ~70 matches to do one.

But whatever. There is no point in arguing this further, unless someone has a time machine where we can go back and test the comparison, or barring that, complete video records of leveling three mechs back then vs the one now. But I know that I never felt as beaten by the system trying doing three mechs back in 2015 as I do now just leveling one. Thank god for GSP is all I can say.

[Escef]

justcallme A S H, on 22 March 2018 - 02:12 PM, said:

I don't think...

If you'd stopped your argument right there, man. Just... right there.

[justcallme A S H]

I do love seeing those screenshots each time Bud. Always make me laugh as evidence and you own experience (from the mid level player) says what many new players experience.

Given a 2.5k instant population drop post skill maze, many of them the better players in the game, I just dunno how people sit there and claim it was good for the game. Its just plain odd.

The idea was good, it's implementation was abysmal. If PGI just listened to good feedback the maze would be an actual tree. Players would not have left... It still doesn't escape the ~60-80 match grind though, but again, the white knights just won't accept they are wrong here.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 22 March 2018 - 04:44 PM.

[Moadebe]

And neither will the nostalgic naysayers who continually focus on XP XP when there is more than one currency in this game accept that they are wrong as well. I am going to test this whole "oh 70 matches to level one mech" bs out cause that sounds like a seriously inflated number, and if i was a betting man I would say you might be wrong. We will see though.

[vonJerg]

72hr stream incoming?

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Cara Carcass, on 22 March 2018 - 03:57 AM, said:

Dude my overall games over all mechs and about 7k games that were recorded are les than 2 nodes....... Get that? I have made 40 games now trying to level a mech by hand so to speak..... i cannot get 2 nodes average.... never will.... Even on mechs where i average a 4.0 kd with a win rate of over 3, i on average get a tiny fraction less than 2.

Yes I believe that. I didn't claim you should be getting 1600 xp per game, it was other guy. I just commented that it's not real stats to take few unlucky games with the supernova.

Moadebe, on 22 March 2018 - 11:44 PM, said:

And neither will the nostalgic naysayers who continually focus on XP XP when there is more than one currency in this game accept that they are wrong as well. I am going to test this whole "oh 70 matches to level one mech" bs out cause that sounds like a seriously inflated number, and if i was a betting man I would say you might be wrong. We will see though.

The game is already tracking that stuff for you. 70 games for 91 nodes would be 73k exp. Most average players should get about 900-1200 XP per game depending on chassis.

You can look your stats from here. Look any mech you've played like >50 games. Look at the total XP received and divede by number of games.
https://mwomercs.com...stats?type=mech

And if some mechs had odd amounts of games just look for one with normal amounts.

Edited by Teer Kerensky, 23 March 2018 - 12:30 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Moadebe, on 22 March 2018 - 11:44 PM, said:

And neither will the nostalgic naysayers who continually focus on XP XP when there is more than one currency in this game accept that they are wrong as well. I am going to test this whole "oh 70 matches to level one mech" bs out cause that sounds like a seriously inflated number, and if i was a betting man I would say you might be wrong. We will see though.

Make sure to change loadouts and unlock a solid 120 nodes!

Better test would be get a new player to actually do it. Given that's a major part of the discussion, not someone who already has years of experience and decent enough skill to call upon.

[Kotzi]

Just a little reminder because somehow some people seem to "forget" those facts.

1. Once a module was unlocked it never needed to be unlocked again.
2. You could sell both mechs after you levelled the one you wanted.
3. New players dont have your Cbill amounts. They have to either level their mech or buy equipment because Skill Nodes cost cbills now. You think this grind is a great incentive for new players to stay? You think they wouldnt like having to buy 2 other mechs they could eventually play rather than put cbills into that stupid maze without the experience to know whicht way to go?
4. This is a Cbill and time sink for new players, if it would be any "RPG" element you wouldnt have to waste points and maze this skill tree.